georger

There is no defense, or reasoning with, obstinance. Better just to pack it in.

I have never claimed to have any "unrevealed" data from the chase plane pilots. Maybe you shared it with Blevins.

Well that seems like a relatively straightforward response to me, unless there is something you wish to add. We will add you to the list of people who have spoken in person to Rataczak, on this specific issue. BTW, this is not a popularity contest but a search for facts. Thanks. G.

I'm not going to play any childish games with you. If you want to argue, wait until Blevins returns. If you want to know what the weather was the night of the hijacking, then read Hominid's posts on the subject from a few months back. An extensive search of Hominid's posts here at Dropzone finds no word-associations for: skyglow cloud cover visibility seeing seeing conditions conditions saw Portland saw Vancouver Rataczak Anderson Scott etc crew: Hominid used the word 'crew' here about a dozen times but with no reference to weather or visibility. Example: Posts (Sep 30, 2011, 8:00 PM Post #27096) and (Nov 30, 2011, 8:48 PM Post #29056) and 11 times (Sep 29, 2011, 3:14 PM Post #27021) I dont recall Hominid ever addressing the issue of visibility specifically. Did you have something in mind - some specific post? You keep citing Hominid. The person addressing 'visibility' the most here, Robert99, has been you, with numerous examples in your posts too numerous to list. Lets see what Hominid has to say about all of this - Those are the facts at my disposal I see. No games. Just facts and actual interviews of Rataczack, Anderson, etc. Again. You say you have data from the chase pilots but havent revealed it.

What is a "static no-visibility condition"? The weather reports for the evening of the hijacking always list the visibility at Portland as about 10 miles. There has never been an issue with the visibility. Where were Batman and Robin the evening of the hijacking? Think it over That's right. I forgot. I get stuck having to tread water in people's dogma. The wx report did say "visibility at Portland was about 10 miles. " 10 miles just not vertically, or at 15 degrees, to the north, or to any and all incoming pilots coming from the northish. Just 10 miles visibility for Batman and Robin. How convenient. You have an EASY switch! Would you grant even a hint of skyglow from Portland and Vancouver that night? Something an IR detector would see? You do realise you are making this VERY difficult! Do you know that some of Bohan's crew were interviewed? Would you care to guess what they had to say about 'visibility' coming into PDX that night? Robert99, you might as well quantify the visibility that night and get it over with - give us something of an empiracle nature to work with. Maybe you are on to something here! Maybe Cooper picked the one spot on Earth where there was no ground visibility that night, and intentionally bailed into what looked like a "black hole". That combined with the particles Tom found may suggest Cooper was a machinist cosmologist at Area-51 ? Aren't you actually saying that only "you" can solve the DB Cooper riddle - and your qualifications and experience trumps all other qualifications and experience in crime solving? How is the visibility up there in the Nuttall-Grady-Himmelsbach tower?

That's right. You did talk to Rataczak at length. I entirely forgot that, or discounted it. So, having asked Rataczak about what he saw or did not see, do you support Carr's statement " could see the suburbs of Portland coming up" ? A simple answer will do - _Yes I support that statement based on what R. to me. _No I dont support that stament.

My specific source for the above is on page 95 of George Nuttall's book which discusses a conversation between Harry L. Grady (Nuttall's friend and researcher for his book) and FBI Agent Ralph Himmelsbach. Following is the specific quote written by Grady: "He (Ralph Himmelsbach) guesses that flight 305 was a little east of V-23 but in debriefing the pilots could not say how far. He said the co-pilot did all the flying that night and that the storm was severe with a strong wind coming at them from 245 degrees. There was a cloud cover below them when they passed over Vancouver that was so thick that they couldn't see landmarks or even the glow of city lights." Now is there something in the above statement that is not understandable? In addition to the above, my personal knowledge of aviation weather led me to the same conclusions several years ago about no glow being visible from the city lights. Anyone wanting to argue about the weather in the Portland/Vancouver on the evening of the hijacking should make it a point to read Hominid's extensive posts on the subject a few months back. If you disagree with what Hominid has written please post your remarks on this thread. I'd love to see your attempts to explain away Hominid's conclusions. Honest! Robert99 Yes I remember - you cite your sources again. You cite Hominid and have always claimed a static no-visibility condition for Portland-Vancouver during the crucial hours. Now you throw Nutall - Grady- Himmeslbach into the mix with "the storm was severe with a strong wind coming at them from 245 degrees. " Which is it today: static no-visibility SEVERE STORM WITH STRONG WIND or a static no-visibility NON- STORM AND NORMAL LOW KEY WIND ? Your previous static no visibility stance is at odds with your Nutall citation above, so I guess you are chosing to pick & reject from the same citation, to get to an intended result? Think it over. Your reference to reports from the chase pilots is interesting and new - care to explain that? Oh!, did Nuttall and Grady interview the crew? Did Himmelsbach? I thought this was a Seattle case, or am I missing something!? The Carr report stands on its own and is consistent, Its even consistent with the general weather facts you and Hominid have presented, except for the issue of visibility during the cross-over at Portland- Vancouver. The Carr report is also supported by reports from people who interviewed the crew, for a total of somewhere between 20 and 30 hours. We are using different data sets, each drawing our ideas and conclusions from the data sets we each have, and that is all there is to this. At least that is what Im doing.

Someone asks the group this question: Quote: you might float this question out there............ the JC Penney's tie left behind looked a lot like a military issue tie from that era. Can you ask around and see if the military (probably Army) had any contracts with JC Penny's to furnish dark ties with their dress uniforms, and maybe that tie Cooper used is one them?

First, I dont see that anyone must weep. More to simply trying to figure this out as per evidence given by people. My statement you quote above is a direct quote by Larry Carry after Carr reviewed Rat's sworn testimony in the FBI files - then Carr posted the statement here. Carr's quote is freely available in a back search here at Dropzone. So, its not something I dreamed up. Secondly, Robt99 keeps quoting the "flight crew" as saying, quote: " the flight crew of the hijacked airliner said that the overcast and several layers of clouds below them that night were so thick that they could not see the light glow from the Portland and Vancouver areas." I have no idea where Robt99 got this statement on behalf of the whole "flight crew". I would sure like to know what Robt99's source for this is. Maybe H's book? I have a feeling Robt99 has a reference in mind, because I know yhe would not make something like this up. Thirdly, I have talked to a number of people including two retired observatory directors who say they recall sky conditions the evening of 11-24-71, in Portland and at Vancouver. Most everyone reported 'broken clouds' from time to time, and when asked 'could Cooper have seen the sky glow from Portland-Vancouver that night' all responded 'yes' or 'I think so'. Lastly, I have said this before, I will say it again: I find it strange nobody made a formal report of sky conditions at PDX-VCR that night, as seen over those cities. Pilots. The helo pilots. One reason for the lack of reports on this issue involving VCR-PDX specifically, may be nobody thought Cooper had bailed there - so no reason for a sky condition report. My personal stance on this matter is, its undecided pending further evidence of a specific nature. And I know just as quickly as I write this Robt99 may say: 'The aviation wx report for PDX-VCR that evening is the best evidence and conclusive'. ??? I agree with you Sail. I dont think this issue is settled fact. And Carr's report of Rat's testimony weighes heavily in my mind, that this is undecided. Im very torn about this, frankly, because I also take Robt99 seriously. And why after all this time the matter is still undecided, is a mystery all of its own!

There was an American TV movie, probably sometime in the 1970s, on the same subject. I believed it starred Van Johnson. In the TV movie, the airliner managed to get to a high elevation airport that was above the altitude set for the bomb to explode. Has anyone been able to get pdf's off Tom's site? Is there a pdf (long form listing) of the particles in Tom's element group wheel ? It would be nice to have such a listing ... Likewise, any map or listing of where the various elments groups were found on the tie ?

attached -

All things start with Donna at the bar. "He went that- a-way!"

Is Gray looking at Peety? BTW: Gray was allowed access to suspect files at Seattle, which no one else was - that is my understanding.

Pure metallic Ti is not in matches. Its' Titanium dioxide. TiO2. Is in the atmospheres of low temp stars etc. Same stuff used in pigments. Easily converts into a gas and has other attractive properties as a binder etc. My guess is the two atoms of oxygen (O2) would be a handy thing to have around when striking and lighting a match ? Low ignition temp for one thing - But, this is a beautiful example of how the public can get confused when facts are lacking. What I want t know: Is there anything Mr Cooper said, even a tangential reference about, metals or machine shop, making things, etc etc etc ? Peterson is looking better these days! (Im just kidding) And BIG THANKS to Tom for coming here again to help straighten things out.

Sorry Georger, but your Fact about Tom Kayne is not in agreement with what he told me in person. He said that his latest conclusion (not reported anywhere else) about the Titanium was it was from the match heads that DB had been using. Was Tom just feeding me BS or are you not up to date on his latest thinking about the findings on the tie? Maybe Tom is like Cossey and likes to tell untrue things as facts. Who knows? However, you can believe me that what I say is to the best of my knowledge of what I know. Bob Sailshaw Tom posted and clarified this last night - right here on DZ - have you read it? Titanium dioxide. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide As distinct from titanium-stainless alloy metal. Not all titaniums are alike. This is why I asked, so Bruce can get this straight in his article. Writers are very often not chemists, and it does make a difference. Thanks, G

Thanks Tom - that clarfies a few things. Not sure what you mean by "smeared". Worn, compressed on an edge by pressure, oil on it ... that particle has an interesting edge (surface) on it. Thanks -

A couple of questions for clarification - Are you saying the "titanium, chlorine and sodium" your quote above, came from match heads? And does that include the 60 micron long piece of Titanium you have pictured at your website ? In other words, are you including the 60 mic piece in your list of "particles" you associate with match heads? Second: does the 60 micron long piece look finished (machined)? With broken ends ? Third, I had better ask this: what is different about the form of chlorine you found vs chlorine one might find in a public washroom, on the airplane? Thanks.

Bob, when I spoke with Tom Kaye in Portland at the Symposium, he told me the Titanium found was similar to an aircarft alloy, and that Cooper was possibly involved with the SST development at Boeing. This was a reversal of his initital speculations that the titanium found on the tie was a non-aircraft alloy form of titanium called titanium sponge because of the presence of tell-tale chemical markers, most notably the chlorine and sulfur particles he also found on the tie. However, Tom and the CST later determined that the choline and sulfur most likely came from matchhead residues and not the natural form of titanium sponge. I need to write about this angle, as it gives strong inference that DB Cooper was a Boeing employee - picking up Ti particles on his clothing and learning about the jump capabilities of the 727. I like the scenario of Cooper leaning into the scrap tubs and having a tie dangle onto the goodies. I think Tom has discussed these findings here, but the situation is a bit murky so greater clarification is welcome in my view. Hi Bruce. I thought your and Meyer's trip to Amboy was interesting. Hopfully Tom will come here to discuss his findings, but if you plan to publish something you need to get a few facts straight first. Facts of chemistry for one. I know its not easy if a person has little exposure to these matters before, but take a little time, quote Tom directly when possible, and ask Tom for clarifications - all prior to publishing something embarassing? Now bare with this - Tom ran 450+ spectrometrics on all of the particles and substances found. He probably cross checked these results with a NIST or FBI matching software. He probably then did an environmental match of some kind; maybe several matches to try and get some idea of where th substances found occur in Nature, or in human life. So, when Tom says "machine shop" that would be a 'search match" vs. something Tom just came up with on his own. It's may understanding that Tom never said Ti sponge as an identification. That came from someone outside the CS team, and Geof Gray began spreading the word erroneously without checking. We think we know who began the myth of Ti sponge, but I wont discuss that. That is Tom's to speak about or not. The Ti particles found are all finished metal, rather pure it seems, but not Ti sponge or any other intermediary form, but the kind of finished metal one might find in a specialty machine shop. That is one reason Tom has published saying "machine shop" - his choice of words is not an accident or coincidental but the result of spectroscopic identification and matching work with several entities including an FBI forensic data base, on Tom and Alan's part. The exact form of finished Ti metal particles Tom found seems to have been identified, by Tom and Alan. Tom has not given details about that on his website. Lastly, it is chlorine, not "coline", so far as I know. Again refer to Tom's site. Tom attributes chlorine and sulfur to the matches-smoking. (My own personal thought is that Cooper visited the head and was there a length of time, maybe washed his face, etc - a place regularly cleaned with substances containing chlorine). Tom attributes the chlorine to matches. Maybe Tom will come and clarify some of this - But pay attention to Tom's element wheel as it relates to particles found on the tie. There is a lot of information there. Lastly, Jo asked some time ago about emery. Spelled emery, not emory. Emery is basically carborundum (aluminum oxide) found in nature, and so far as I know has nothing to do with the particles found on Cooper's tie. See Tom's element wheel. Questions?

Sail, this is just factually wrong by light years. Tom never said any such thing. The pieces of sold titanium metal are just that - have nothing to do with match heads/smoker. You have this confused. Nowhere on Tom's site does he make any association between the Ti particles and match heads. The two are completely incompatible. Go back and read the pertinent material on Tom's site. In contrast to the shaving the Ti particle is tiny. Looks like a percussion piece broken off with possible previous machining (see the edge). At only 60 mics long = 0.06mm = 0.0024 inches. Very low mass particle could be moved by contact or in wind drafts. Its the total aggregate of these non-smoking related 'particles' that Tom is focusing on as a venue for Cooper. Metal processing environment. Could such particles have been accumulated merely being on and moving around, inside the plane, or is this something independent of his plane ride? G.

There are no idiots here with the exception of maybe ONE guy. Not Georger. It was my thought on what the REAL DB Cooper might say if he saw this thread...and if he knew no one that has been discussed was actually HIM. He would get a laugh out of it, I'm sure. Georger says: Libeler? Do you deny that you had a problem with the CS team? And that what I said regarding revealing info they didn't want revealed isn't true? I notice you didn't address that. Yada. Yada. One insult from you after another. You don't like me. I think everyone has figured that out. Move on. I gave you the credit you had coming, which was that you assisted the CS team in hooking up with the Seattle FBI. That is a good thing. I have no 'accomplices' and no one hates you. I think you're misguided, though. Stop blaming ME for the thread. I am not the one using it to forward my delusions. That would be someone else. I generally deal in facts, although I have been wrong from time to time. But when I am, I will step up and say so. That's what differs me from people like Knoss. At least when I present something you will know it isn't based on lies. Wrong? Possibly yes. A lie? Absolutely NO. Let me put it in a simpler way: AB of Seattle, and my reputation (such as it is) is more than the Cooper case. To make up stuff, or be caught in a lie regarding that case would cause damage to everything I represent, everything I've worked for. I'm not that stupid, you know. I enjoy exploring the Cooper case, but I'm not willing to trash my life over it. I do have a certain amount of pride. You literally dont know what you're talking about. Who is your source for all of this lies you are spreading? Name your source (fourth request). Is your source Jerry Thomas? Whoever it is, they are pulling your chain. Because they are not even in a position to know the facts! You and your socalled "reliable sources" are totally impeached at this point. Stop the personal attacks against me and others here. That's all you have done since you landed here. It is not my responsibility nor anyone elses to inform YOU of the history of the forensic TEAMS which were formed to work on the Cooper case. TEAMS, I might add, which predated and post-dated Tom Kaye! GO FUCK YOURSELF. Moreover, you do not run this thread. complaint filed with Quade.

Here's the Amboy chute Google map again, for anyone that wants it. Im moving (getting rid of) old bookmarks tonight and ran across this one so before its gone here it is again - http://maps.google.com/maps? t=k&hl=en&ie=UTF8&s=AARTsJpnOA3ioEtcI9rx_v7gyZ qlolGTYw&ll=45.939482,- 122.530346&spn=0.010445,0.018239&z=15&source= embed

Why has the FBI never inquired about Duane's dead cat? I dunnoh. Consider this! The moment you are gone the FBI may decide to inquire further about Duane'! Now drive yourself crazy with that. Maybe team up with Blevins. Ever talked to Gayla - she may have secrets! ? Blevins and Gayla are just a phone call away - think about it! The possibilities are staggering. By his own admission, Blevins knows a LOT about this case, probably including Duane. Times a wastin.

he would get the biggest kick out of reading this thread. That makes me smile just thinking about it. Imagine it: Stop lying. You arent smiling or thinking. You are posturing - trying to save your ass. Gotcha!~

Blevins, Whether you realize it or not, you are basically stating that anyone who doesn't believe that KC was Cooper is suppose to present another named suspect, presumably one that they have spent 18 months worth of weekends investigating, and maybe one they have written a book on. As I have stated any number of times before, if and when the identity of Cooper is discovered, his name will probably be one that has never appeared on this thread or been heard of by any posters on this thread. maybe even a genetic riddle worth solving. and Blevins and Jo will claim the geneticists dont know what they are talking about! It all comes down to "vested personal financial interests". That's the nub of the curse. Ego and $$$. and of course: "They hate me" ... the only thing left of their pseudo-credibility they can muster. Jo has had a 15+ year run. Blevins has only started! and neither know a damned thing about social relativity and time shrinkage in an inflationary universe! It's real! Two fossils found in an internet thread. Hey Blevins, your favorite movie "JFK" is on Encore Drama right now. Better tune it and write a thingy.

That's just a straight-up dig with nothing behind it. Don't compare me to a guy who lives in Cooper Fantasyland, Disney Style. I don't go around making unsupported allegations, for one thing. I also tossed nearly ten grand of the company's money and 18 months of weekends into investigating Christiansen and everyone I could locate who knew him. That's more than a lot of people have bothered with in the case. And when I discuss something in the Cooper case, at least I make a reasonable effort to present some real evidence on why I'm bringing up a point. And I don't see where Timewarrior is somehow 'bad' for this thread. You may not realize it, but we do agree on some things. Like Snowwman for example. Yes, I have researched his posts. Yes, I think he should be allowed to return. Don't know who he is, but he's a smart guy, that is for sure. I also don't understand why people don't accept my basic statement regarding Christiansen: Yes, I believe he could have been Cooper. Can I say so for sure? NO. Am I open to the idea of other possibilities? YES. Should these suspects be presented with at least a little evidence behind them? Also YES. I see nothing wrong with that concept. It's fair. It's the truth. Knoss is the one all of you should be angry with, not me. I'll admit that sometimes there could be reasons to be angry with me. But not ALL the time. At least I spent a great deal of time and money to help keep interest going in the Cooper case. By the time we were halfway through all the research trips, everyone at AB realized we were going to lose money on the whole thing. But it became an effort to either confirm KC or finally eliminate him once and for all. In order to present what I had with some credibility, I turned down thousands of dollars for those TV appearances. (Looking back now, nobody really counts that as 'credibility', so I should have probably just sold-out, LOL) It wasn't my fault that Bernie Geestman chose to lie about one thing after another, and that his lies increased my suspicions about him. You'd have to be stupid not to wonder why he did that, or tried to get his sister to change her story. But until REAL proof is presented that KC was the guy, he remains what he is: A suspect just like all the others on that Wiki list. Better than some, not as good as others maybe. I say we trade Knoss off for Snownman and toss in a couple of future draft picks. < Neither. Georger just hates me. > You give yourself way too much credit, libeler. Only you and Jo Weber have ever used that word here - nobody else. Have you had your daily fix of venom here? Are you (and your accomplices) one step closer to taking over the Cooperphelia? You have accomplished shutting down this thread. Congrats to you and (your accomplices). Congrats also to Quade. We mere posters were never a match for you and Quade.