georger

YOU CAN TALK TO FAZIO BUT YOU CANNOT ACCESS THE BEACH. Jo there have been researchers there the last two weeks. Thats a fact. Whoever they negotiated with or got permission from, they've been there. No need to burn the phone lines up. They are gone and lips sealed.

Farflung and Georger: Suggestion for you two. Why don't you copy over your post (maybe edited a bit) and send off your concerns to the source...namely Tom Kaye and his team. . Oh! Ive heard of him somewhere. My speculation is, Tom Kaye and his team, read this forum. And if Tom can't Barry can. And if Barry can't Harry can. And if Harry can't Mary can! Go Team! Defense defense defense. They have a contact under CONTACT on the website, I believe. I love fiddle players. GO PANTS.

All I know is TK says the holes are due to bacteria - its on his website ? - he shows the whole development cycle beginning with what looks like a bruise (bacterial colony feasting), then deeper hole (which under a sem would look like a moon crater), then a hole ... some holes with flapping pieces ... makes sense to me ... I like simple. All I did say was it could have been confirmed with dna but alas that was not to be. I dont even know where these critter live in the zone profile: surface, sub surface, mid zone, 2 feet 3 feet 4 more, 6 feet 7 feet 8 feet or.. buggars would need oxy to metabolise however wherever they reside in the vertical profile. I wonder how much rent they pay?

I remember that dialog well Georger. The "rust" outline looked suspiciously like an outline of common parachute harness hardware (which is made out of steel) , but I was probably smoking hopium and seeing what I wanted to see. Great find on the publication. That NOAA paper is waaaay over my head, but the authors could probably look at the Tena Bar Twenty photos and give an educated guess as to what made the holes. 377 Burrowing Beach Critters.. that live along the river, some are aquatic.. some are terrestrial.. and aka baby salmon food

dont take rust literally - Tom says its not rust. I dont know; never saw or handled/tested the bill. That photo I posted is an old photo from years ago when someone (Snowmman?) posted the photo, and I believe it was 377 asked: "Whats that rust?" People were looking for any sign of the parachute/ chute hardware in associattion with the money find site. I labeled that photo 'rust' to keep track of that photo in my files.. that's all. I am sure 377 will recall and confirm that exchange from years ago here -

If only they succeeded... sigh. Sometimes I wonder if thinking is really teachable. I want to know what ate those holes in my Tena Bar Twenty. 377 http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/techmemos/tm26/tm26.htm beautiful!

I'm not a bug-ologist but those critters seem to like air. Do they have any acquatic capabilities? Or even wet (or dry) sand capabilities? If the answer to these questions is no, then it looks like the bugs did their work when the money was exposed to the atmosphere and before it got to its discovery location. Robert99 Iwouldnt bet on that. every species has a zone of habitation - yes? some zones go vertical. These critters require oxygen - whoever they are. Oxygen exchange levels vary as a functionof depth, temp. etc. This aint rocket science! There are 'vast' catalog of taxonomy of Columbia shoreline species. Grants make people compete to make them! One good taxonomist who knows an area can answer your questions in 30 seconds! That is no exaggeration. But you have to have some idea of the questions to ask - that's the researcher's responsibility. Universities are supposed to teach people "how to think"! These guys may shy away from UV. In today's world you do dna testing to be sure.

Tom says bacteria, but Tom had no facility to do the dna. Email Tom?

How could these bills be ‘cemented’, stuck or whatever together if they were dropped into a little hole and left behind, . Cemented was a relative term - see attached - note the piles (as received) from the Ingram. Posting order is random - 377 post a photo of yours ? I will locate it for you in the original file, if its separated ?? have no idea. would have to look.

JT thinks the unopened rig is out there somewhere in the Washougal, waiting to be discovered. 377 JT also said there was never-ever any dredge spoils put on the beachfront at the Fazios.

Would Cooper have hijacked an aircraft from his local airport? Is there an area near where he apparently wanted to jump that had a relatively high transient population? Did Cooper have assistants that would not notify the FBI even if they knew Cooper personally? Questions and more questions. Robert99 Half the whole population in the west and norwest was transient - nonexstent. Dont we know Cooper was a French Canadian who worked in circuses? I thoutht Tom and Carol proved that? "Git the show on the road". "American currency negotiable..." What we need here is a better paint gun, to slop some paint on the Cooper case so its a modernist revisionist piece of monkey art. Oh! Almost forgot! Are you done with those C3 tests so we know how long (how many times) the Ingram money was exposed to post 1950's nuclear testing air ? I needed that data - yesterday! Stick the results in an email and I'll transfer them to Rad Rocz. Vilniczhovek wants to know too!

Really! ? Maybe he had already disappeared. That was the attractiveness of EVicki's Dad with JT sure he was he was Franz List or maybe Ed Sullivan.! Hell I know people who have been gone for 50 years and never missed. Whole communities of them. Millions of them! You can see them listed on the welfare rolls. Phd's driving cabs part time since 1974! Being missing in America is easy to do. Everything turned on its head in 1970. America has been run by the wrong "found people" ever since. Generations vanished! Poof! Dangling in the wind ... The real question is: Where have the "found people" been!

Did anyone come up with a good explanation for the holes in the money? 377 Read the thread -

b]4. The same geologist (one and apparently only) suggests a “possible” source for the tangential sample. Its even worse than you portray. Far worser. Worserest forte above being encamped at the shrine of the Washougal. "We already know the money came down the Washougal". Todd told Harry told Faye, told John told Mary told Maye, told Jack told Stick told Ray, told somebody told somebody else told May ... the Washougal WAS the source; thereby all academics put it into re-ports. Dates uncertain well almost. All borrowed then sorta commanded, obeyances. The Washougal must be in the reports - God damnit! Becuz: Todd told Harry told Faye, told John told Mary told Maye, told Jack told Stick told Ray, told somebody told somebody else told May. "Why dig a trench where the money was found!? Go off that-a-way! Hell dig it in Seattle, for all I care!. And dont save a God damned thing!" Meanwhile the few fragment saved ship off to Quantico, and reports evidently were made. There are coded numbers of reports, "but dont save them to let anyone read"! Jerry Thomas then went forth conducting his own extrapolations and in due course floated ten 1931 Chevies down the Wasougal and they ALL shows up on Tena's Bar, true proof that Zeus is in charge. Yep. It's Greekian fer sure. Aristophenes, Eu- ripedes, Soh-krates, and then Tom Kaye-ipedes. It all begins at Sparta engaging massive forces, in a valley. All sacrificed including the goat. But names left inscribed on a rock, in the Washougal!. No small wonder my head began to spin! Back to those Quantico reports with serial numbers. WHERE THE FUCK ARE THEY! I AINT GONNA WAIT TEN YEARS! Todd told Harry told Faye, told John ... Summary report: Rounded sand (vs sharp sand?). Consistent with "river sediment". I see! It's all coming clear - the FAZIO FOUND THE MONEY AND buryied some on their beachfront to throw everyone off ... saying quickly when found ... "it cameup with the rising tide ... I know ... I was there". There!? There-what? We had had high tide just the day before. Ok. You can see the money lays on the high tide line, viola. We dont need no stinkin tests, but I will help dig. My tractors rents for: . . . All buddies. No cross checks needed. Todd told Harry told Faye, told John told Mary told Maye, ... Rounded sand consistent with river sediment. Which River? The Patomac? ! The North Skunk? You mean the Columbia River of course. No answer. Todd told Harry told Faye, told John told Mary told Maye, ... Who designed this Greek thingy? Todd told Harry told Faye, ... Wonderful day in the neighborhood. Wouldn't you be mine? Time to get and save your family. The election is cancelled. Todd told Harry told Faye ... The more I say the worse it gets! Thank GOD! for the Kaye website. I'm retired! Go ask Tom. I wasn't there. Go ask Jerry Thomas. He was there! C3? Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... I cant even get this website to load or work! Go ask Blevins. He was there!

Don’t forget to cross check that plan. 1. Get a shovel. 2. Fly to Portland. 3. Go to Tena Bar. 4. ????? End of plan. Validation complete. ? Gotta plan, am checking it twice. Got a shovel, am checking it thrice. Hooking up Donder and Blevins. Looking down I can see Tena Bar. I am there. Now what!? Damn. I forgot the shovel!

Has the mystery been solved by anyone here? Not at all. It's one of the major keys to the case -- figure out what really happened at Tena's Bar and I think you go a long ways to understanding, maybe even solving, the case. Anything this important bears repeating. And so how would you solve it? Unlimited budget, labs galore, phD's, any resource you wanted - ? What would you look for in the money? How would you connect the money to the rest of the case? I am always interested in people with BIG ideas.

Stay tuned.

3. There was no more dredging after 1974, or no more dredging from the Corps of Engineers? A: Apparently no more sand placed on the beach front - but possibly on the south end of the Fazio property after 1975-76 from other area of the Columbia. I was never able to get a comprehensive list of dates... but by '76 the Fazio's were running a reclamation project (as equipment there shows) 4. What is the undulating mass in the photo from 1979 which was not present in 1974? A: Nobody ever explaiend that either ... I asked a number of people... I wasnt able to connect with the Fazios directly and I just got busy with other matters - its a weak excuse.

did ya see this one 99? http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/03/amateur_detectives_fish_for_db.html If you go back to the USGS photos Ckret posted and do some internet searches you can see that the whole beachfront was undergoing replenishment from dredging from 1954 on - Farflung acknowledg- ed this in his post. It is in this context that the Fazio property became involved, and some time between 1970-1976, the Fazio got into the act taking dredge material onto the south end of their property (just above Catapillar Island) and then began processing sand as a business. The USGS kept records of everything. They were able to identify exactly where the '74 deposits to the Fazio beach front came from. My data I posted is from the Bechley and another report. Following the money find, people dragged the area and divers explored it, where the dredge material had cpome from on the opposite side of the river. Tousaw and his teams arrived and explored the same and relatd areas again ... There was rather extensive research by geologists and environmental chemists throughout this whole area, sometimes on dredge deposits specifically, out of Portland State, UWash, etc ... thus a number of profiles to compare Tena Bar chemistry (and the money sediments) with. Tom chose not to include information of that kind in his project .... ? The idea of a CS team arose, in part, due to a concern (conflict) between the FBI FP and Thomas' easterly Washougal route, on top of the fact that Palmer etal had mentioned the Washougal as a possible source for the Tena Bar money. That theory was very active among the FBI agents at the time of the Tena Bar excavation. And the thought was the Cooper money (and the sediments between bills) might very well show traces of time spent in the Washougal environment, prior to a later arrival at Tena Bar (say in the flood of 1979). Palmer had commented that he thought the Cooper money was a 'late arrival' at Tena Bar, and he said his geology supported that idea ... but no thorough chemistry had ever been done on the Cooper money (several agents said) ... which turned out to be not entirely true. That problem was the central at the time, as a motivation for having forensics done on the Cooper money (finally) by somebody, and lead to the organising of a forensic team ... At length, we never found anything of an obvious nature to tie the money to the Washougal area and its geology/biology. In other words, the money analysis was being used to try and clarify flight path and dropzone options. There was no plan to do anything but evaluate te money in a laboratory environment, fufilling a task the FBI said had never been done after the money was found. So far as I know, Palmer never conducted any laboratory forensics, especially on the money.

Its not an allegation - its a well known fact. Talk to Tom. You are Tom's fictional associate! Blevins you are spouting nonsense about things you obviously know nothing about - why would anyone do that except to troll? Who the fuck is Robert M Blevins in all of this !!!!!! That's what I want to know. Go preach to your cat! Go play "know-it-all" with one of your neighbors. What you need Blevins a Ouija Board - go buy one.

Robert replies: So has everyone else involved in exploring the Cooper case. I've forwarded some theories on the money, but I never said I was an expert on it. And I made something else clear...that it was merely a quote from Gray's book. It's obvious you don't like HIM, either? Am I right about this? What did Gray ever do to YOU? Georger says: Geoff Gray damned near got his ass sued by Tom and Tom's team - it came within minutes of happening. Robert replies: Why? You have proof of this allegation? I think you are pissed off at Gray because he said this in his book, page 220, which refers to when Kaye, Jerry Thomas, Geoff Gray, and the rest of the CS team (Carol A and Alan Stone) gathered for a little trip to Tena Bar: Georger says: Geof Gray is NOT a reliable source in this matter. Geoff Gray was fishing, Tom wouldnt talk to him, I wouldnt talk to Gray ... and there you have it. And now for this nitwit Blevins to chime in, based on Gray who nobody would talk to ? Blevins does not know ANYTHING! Better you should go out and talk to a bird in a tree. Robert says: But you were not there, correct? And all I did was quote a bit from the book. I think you are overreacting again, and that some of this is based on previous events. GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD - YOU KNOW NOTHING. THAT IS OBVIOUS, MR OBVIOUS. Itwas you not there! And youre still not here! GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD & STOP TROLLING -

The dredging near T_Bar was from August 6 1974 through September 18, 1974. There was no more dreging at this site from these dates to Feb 1980. Material dredged was placed in several locations on or near the Fazio Farm and at one location across the river on the Oregon side. (Nobody ever talks about that site and if it was explored ) The dredge material deposited at the money location came from the north half of the channel between mile markers 96 + 38 feet and marker 97 + 17 feet. (That area was explored but again nobody talks about that except anecdotally by Tom in one remark on his wewsbite ...) The material at the money location was deposited between August 19 and the 25th, 1974. The material deposited consisted of 91,100 cubic yards of Columbia bottom material. The material deposited was spread with tractors over an area of approximately 50 yards in each direction from the pipe pile. The Fazios did the spreading with their tractors. See the charts on Tom's CS website & USGS photos Ckret posted at Dropzone. Lastly, when did the Fazio Sand operation start and for how long had dredge material been being desposited on the Fazio propoerty and where? I dont have any definitive information on this - but Tom might? Or you could call the last Fazio brother if he is still around.

The problem with taking the statement you quote at face value is this: It doesn't take into account things that might account for different conclusions. I just think that for all the science there's still a lot of guessing going on. Im going to be very God damned clear about this! Blevins is quoting/reading Geoff Grays book. Blevins has no hard first-hand info about any of this. In this area anything Blevins says is pure speculation and bravado, and 12 times out of 3 he literally doesnt know what he's talking about - Geoff Gray got a lot of things wrong. Geoff Gray damned near got his ass sued by Tom and Tom's team - it came within minutes of happening. Geof Gray is NOT a reliable source in this matter. Geoff Gray was fishing, Tom wouldnt talk to him, I wouldnt talk to Gray ... and there you have it. And now for this nitwit Blevins to chime in, based on Gray who nobody would talk to ? Blevins does not know ANYTHING! Better you should go out and talk to a bird in a tree. . . . I was goign to answer your questions about chemistry in your other post. But now I wont. I am going to wait for a non-Blevins moment and maybe I will adddress a few things then. Until then, Im on vacation. So now Bleinvs has the floor. Later - [ps: Go back to Tom's page on Rubber Bands. It's a crucial part of Tom/CS's analysis and his theoretical speculation. *There isn't one mention on the whole page about "temperature". Not one word. Nothing! ....... if there is anything about rubber bands you need to know in any forensic analysis it is the "melt phase transition point" of the bands in question and the temperatures encounter- ed in the life history of the bands - that is basic Rubber Band Forensics 101. But not one mention of temperature(s) in Tom's whole analysis. I guess he didn't think that was important. Maybe Blevins can tell us! ]

I could find nothing about print bleeds...but he does talk about alignment of the money here.... http://www.citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html Paragraphs 5 and 6 under the section titled "Discussion". There is also a pic on the right - Figure 5 - that he references I went over the webpage page by page last night and there is no mention of 'print bleeds'. There are direct references to bill alignment and a graphic but this is an 'inference' from pieces of several bill-print stuck to one of the three bills Tom had to work with. Tom only had 3 bills. Gray seems to be the only source for this I can find, from what Blevins is citing in Geoff's book. Gray may have misunderstood Tom which wouldnt be the first time - one othet example was his citing me as saying 'two types of silver' and when I voluntarily called Gray to correct him (vs him calling me!) he then claimed I had given up my claim to remaining private and he published my name in retaliation! Then Tom sits and says nothing, as usual! Tom reads this forum. It would be almost like Tom to sit for years and say nothing, when in fact he never said 'print bleeds'. Tom says nothing about 'print bleeds' on the CS website. He does make several refereces to alignment of bills and he has several graphics about that. Those graphics of course contradict the idea that 'all of the bills were in perfect alignment' - they werent. Anyone who has talked to the Ingrams knows that! And, Tom's alignment pitch is all based on "piece of print" stuck to one of the 3 bills he had, each serie of print at a different angle - with these graphics (I am attaching). On the "Washougal Washdown Theory"page Tom says quote: "The bills were still in relative alignment when found on Tena Bar which seems implausible along with the fact they stayed together, if they went through a dredging and subsequent bulldozing operation." His words are "RELATIVE ALIGNMENT" not "perfect alignment". I honestly dont know what's going on: but it could be all of this is coming from Geoff Gray and his book and Tom never said 'print bleeds' or 'perfect alignment' at all ? Tom only had three bills to work with, and three bills are NOT a representative sample of the Ingram find! Again, it could be that all of this is coming from Geoff Gray and not from Tom? Did Tom ever say anything about this here at Dropzone. ??? I guess we do a search. This is just one more example of people chasing phantoms when those responsible won't talk. It's very poor policy and destroys people's credibility, not to mention nit-wits then chiming in and using it when they havent the faintest idea what they are talking about - Keep in mind: the FBi was not delivered the Ingram find intact as found, but after a separation and wash- job even including chlorine in several cases on some of the bills, in Mom Ingram's kitchenette. You can see part of what the Ingrams presented to Himmelsbach and the state it was in the now famous photo - attached. The Ingrams had tried to separate the bills from a cemented conglomerate (for the most part) and in fact there is an FBI file on the "cemented bills". There was sediment in between each bill to some extent' and covered the outside and around the stack, holding the whole aggregate together, as the Ingrams found the aggregate of bills. By all appearances the "aggregate" looked as if it had been in place through several seasonal cycles for quite some time (years). I could say more but Im going to hold off. Lets be clear about the Ingram-FBI photo: this photo was staged for the news. What you see is just a sampling of the Ingram find. There are other photos which more accurately relfect the condition and amount of the money.

I haven't found the exact sweep rate. It was 5-6 rpm. The PRF was 360 pulses per second. The resolution really wasn't determined by these. The digital data was not actually produced by the radar. They fed video like was used for the display scopes into a computer-like device. Each time the antenna swept past a target several pulses would go out and bounce back. The device looked at the pattern of returns and computed where the center of the pattern was and at what time. The programming was different for the two antennas involved, one being the dish and the other being the radiating slot "trough" antenna mounted on the top of the dish for transponder tracking. The device computed an azimuth word and a range word. It would then send out a signal on two parallel telephone lines telling a device at the direction center that data was available relating to target "x", then would actually transmit the target data to the center if and when the center sent a signal to request it. They also regularly transmitted data for a calibration target at surveyed location. The range data resolution was basically constant. The position resolution attributable to the azimuth data would reduce with distance from the antenna. That is, the lengths required for resolution, perpendicular to the range coordinate, were bigger as range increased. Not as "fine" at longer distances. As it happens, the N-S and E-W errors caused by the range and azimuth errors would have been about the same in the area we're concerned with. The range error would cause about the same errors for both N-S and E-W, and the azimuth error would as well. The resolution was better the farther south the plane flew until the flight got down to the latitude of Mt. Hebo. Just the opposite of what he told you. The angular resolution would correspond to smaller distance the closer you get to the radar. After passing Hebo's latitude, it may not have degraded because the site at North Bend, OR may have already been able to track the flight even at that point. At some point heading south both sites would have been able to track the flight. The North Bend site was on the top of a high peak with 360° view just like Hebo. Good. "At some point heading south both sites would have been able to track the flight. The North Bend site was on the top of a high peak with 360° view just like Hebo..." At what point are BOTH sites triangulating 305? Then how far south (beyond PDX?).