georger

Your credibility just went down the drain with that all-cap statement. You know that, right? You just can't (wont!) keep politics out of this forum. in spite of warnings from Quade. You know that, right?

I want to see a picture of this 'trench' or drain field they talk about. There WAS nothing like that there when I was there in 2001 with the TV crew - if there was SUCH a thing - surely it is on the film! Here is a photo of the "retention ditch" which Jerry Thomas pointed out during the CS team's work. The large red arrow points to the ditch. If you have read my posts you know I cant see any evidence of this ditch until some time around 1979 maybe ... but it is definately there by the mid 1980s. See that photo attached. There's no point in going over things 900 times.

I never thought of you and Farflung as whiners until just about now. *Posts musical interlude to shut out whining.* Sure you did - youve said it before as a comback. Whiners are as whiners do -

Wait a minute! It's you keeps bringing these socalled attributions up here; Kaye, Gray, etc. Nobody else. Not Kaye or Gray etal, because unless I am mistaken they wont even come here or post here! So it is YOU splitting hairs and pushing an agenda, with other people's unsubstantiated claims .. and why God only knows! Then you keep telling others to go to the Source, without confirming you have been to these sources yourself or speak for "your sources"! Never mind it was also YOU who "refused" to go to the sources on other ocassions. That's called a "tapdance", and it serves only one purpose - Entrapment. Small wonder 377 has dubbed you the Venom Magnet, but does not understand why!? Clever work, if you can get it! You don't speak for Tom Kaye or Geoff Gray, and your pretending you understand what they said, or meant, or did, is the epitomy of embecility. This isn't politics, Mr. Blevins. You cant seem to operate without being political and employing entrapment and your soup of every post! Maybe you are only deceiving yourself.

Thanks Amazon. This is progress. You have added "wind" to hydrology. That makes sense, is also new! Now. (a) Is there any main hydrological (flow) route onto Tena Bar, from the main channel? (b) Do/did things flow through the inside channel by Catapillar Island onto the Fazio property? Who or what keeps that inside channel free of debris? I assume boat owners would want that? You have mentioned the flood in 1996 several times. Was that greater in the T-Bar area than the floods of 71, 76, and at the end of drought in 1978 going into 1979? Thanks.

Nope.. it did not wash out even during the big flood in the winter of 1996... although I will say we have had a hell of a lot of 100 year floods in the last 30 years around there. Is there a single vector that brings debris to Tena Bar and any distinction in arrival of debris on the south end of the Fazio's vs. at the shoreline toward Tena Bar? Like during the flood of '96. Note* We are still in the position, in spie of thousands of posts, of not knowing or having one clear instance, of how ANYTHING ARRIVES AT TENA BAR - whether that be money, Cooperites with fishing poles, or even so much as a twig! Literally: the only thing we have is the claim by Jerry Thomas that years ago he released items in the Washougal, and they showed up on Tena Bar. Nobody apparently, in the whole history of this case, has tracked or accounted for one God damned thing, that started a some point x and arrived on Tena Bar; in spite of countless photos of debris, from time to time, on Tena Bar. It's like Blevins' 'slapped red haired stepchild' who nobody wants or claims. A metaphor for Blevins to use (being cruel-cute?) and nothing more. Millions of words and hours on the Money at Tena Bar" and no positive way to account for it except some further box of unrpoved assumptions and claims, with no photos of Nature in action! We know more about the Backside of Pluto, than we do about how things get to Tena Bar and where in hell they came from! Or am I missing something - !

Socks. I want everyone to know I will not be buying the Subaru. OK!? I now go wee-wee. Any questions: ask Tom kaye directly.

POST A MAP! 99.99% DONT HAVE THE FAINTEST IDEA WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT ! ? Also, if Lake River or Vancouver Lake figures into this explanation, please explain how the money got across the levee that NW Lower River Road is built upon. The purpose of that levee was to keep the Columbia River water on the west side of the road/levee and separate from the Lake River and Vancouver Lake on the east side. Robert99 Not to mention.. Lake River in 1971 was pretty much a ditch with no flow.. it was not till the huge project much much later that forced water INTO Vancouver Lake... so it was not quite as much of a stinking cesspool that it was for so many decades. Moreover, there is some info that after the money find the whole area of Salmon 'creek?', the Shillapoo, and the area around Vancouver Lake were searched, both by LE and by many individuals looking for any sign of Cooper/artifacts ?

The money came from Salmon Creek and ended up on Tens Bar by natural means. POST A MAP! 99.99% DONT HAVE THE FAINTEST IDEA WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT ! ?

? I have heard something about a paper that was delivered with the parachutes...:)] READ DA THREAD! YOU HAVE OPINIONS WITHOUT INFO ? YOU SAW UFO'S ?

Also there is no proof that the bundles were found neatly stacked together. "Neatly stacked to perfection" apparently comes from writer Geoff Gray vis Blevins because there is nothing on the CS website that says that and Tom provides a diagram documenting some of the bills were at angles to each other.

Behind and above the Ingram find was a retention ditch on Fazio's property. Rain washed things into that ditch which at least on paper had the potential to contaminate evertyhing below and down-flow of it. Is there evidence of the retention ditch and its contents in the money, in that agri setting?” QUESTION: Was not the trench from the Retention pond - WEST of the money find? Here are some photos beginning with a 2008? photo with ditch marked with yellow arrows - the find location red arrow. So I went back to those usgs photos, 1970-79, and the only 1980s photo I have. The ditch is there in Sluggo's 1980s photos but is it there before 1980? Im really not sure!

Jeez Blevins, where would we be without you. Lol...Farflung was right... there are mysteries greater than the Pyramids of Giza, Hanging Gardens of Babylon and DB Cooper. But enough about you.... 377 might very well agree with you and he knows a lot more about jumping than you or I, but I don't believe he backed into the blast. .. 377 has jumped from a jet - Blevins has only jumped from his ego. But others have jumped jets and the 727. There are data points on both sides. Amazon certainly trumps both Blevins and 377, in a BIG way. I would listen to her - she said - 'I would look for lights to spot with'. Hmmmm. Neither 377 of Blevins said that! Now we know who's the pro and who dreams !

377 has previously commented on the strength of some military parachute canopies. However, pulling the rip cord on the stairs at 225 MPH may be a bit to much in my opinion. Robert99 Recall several of the chutes arrived with instructions and packing cards. According to Tina, he said he didnt need any instructions and tossed them. He then opened and examined the chutes and pulled the packing cards - yes? He tossed the packing cards on the floor but, before doing so glanced or looked at them, long enough to read them. Its the juxtapositon of throwing the instructions away instamtly with the remark 'I dont need them" then not just opening to chutes to look inside, but looking at the packing cards long enough to read them -

The tide affects the flow of the Columbia. Not drastically, but it does. At least enough to push a few packets of bills downstream a mile or two. That is why it was discovered along the tide line on shore. Bradley, hydrologist, 1980, stated the Columbia flow rate at 3 feet per second. The amazing thing to me in this whole discussion - all these years! - is that stuff does get to Tena Bar as a regular fact of life. And yet, nobody has yet specified the regular route(s). Maybe 1000 yellow rubber ducks with long streamers (or DZ posters) need to be floated down the Columbia to see which ones show up on Tena Bar, and where on Tena Bar, and by what route(s)! Basic science. Mythbusters style.

The issue of tides and back flow is academic. You must show these affects apply to the Tena Bar money in a particular window (time, date, location, etc). Backflow on the Columbia in the T_Bar area is not a strong force, as I understand it? The primary force in tide as it would apply at the shoreline is flotation-lift ? The Fazio's claimed the money had arrived with the tide, precisely on the tide line. The tide is not a surge effect but a constant low-grade force. Does the tide actually move stuff around at Tena Bar? I have no idea - (Farf): If there is a forensic match between something in the money and something in the Tena Bar dredge debris, then you must account for the coincidence. Behind and above the Ingram find was a retention ditch on Fazio's property. Rain washed things into that ditch which at least on paper had the potential to contaminate evertyhing below and down-flow of it. Is there evidence of the retention ditch and its contents in the money, in that agri setting?

You took the words right out of my mouth! You have more courage than I do. You're kidding, right? From the Common Sense Department: Once the identity of the hijacker were known, you might be able to research that identity and discover most of the details regarding the hijacking. It would hit the internet like Superstorm Sandy and not long after that, you'd know everything you ever wanted to know about that person, and everyone they ever knew as well. Welcome to the 21st century. This is so obvious I shouldn't have to explain it. Ok Mr Obvious. I see! It's Obvious. Thank you. Phil has a question in the back row - if I recall from last time, Phil wanted to know why Brown people used to be Green and maybe turnips? Let's talk about that. The hour is rushing by...

But just out of morbid curiosity, how would knowing the identity of the hijacker cause ANYTHING regarding Tena Bar to fall into place? Robert99 You took the words right out of my mouth! You have more courage than I do.

WHY! are the rubber bands so difficult? Why has the thinking process in this matter become so muddled. (1) There were no functioning rubber bands holding the Ingram bills together, or the bundles either! (2) There were only "crystalized" remnants of what had once been rubber bands, extant in the same positions on the bundles and sticking apparently to paper fibres, where healthy rubber bands had once been. (3) Bands were applied to individual bundles, not to groups of bundles. (4) The Ingram bundles were being held together by sediments and paper bills bonded to each other, holding the groups of bills together to some extent, surrounded by dirt and lose sand. The Ingram bundles were soggy wet and when Brian (or whoever) pulled the first piece out it separated from the pieces below. The bundles came out in soggy clumps and pieces, with some of the pieces/clumps sticking together. The bundles did not come out as three distinct "bundles", as Brian and Pat describe it. IMPORTANT: There is nothing about rubber bands that "dictates" the Ingram bundles had to arrive at Tena Bar within one year or were responsible for keeping groups of bundles, or even single bundles together per se. It is groups of bundles being together in the same place that matters, and that suggests containment by some fact independent of rubber bands, and so far, rubber bands does not speak to that issue - It is grouping bundles that matters. Cooper grouped the bundles in one or more containers, even if he grouped three bundles in his pocket bundles were still grouped. The Tena Bar bundles suggests that some original grouping stayed intact, because once bundles are separated you cannot have them come back togther except under special circumstances. There is nothing about rubber bands that dictates one means of conveyance vs another especially if it is 'groups of bundles', which implies some means of containment and conveyance which preserves the original grouping, wholly or in part. The grouping was the FBI's or bank's or Cooper's and the grouping stayed together inspite of rubber bands, not because of them. The FBI did not catalog the serial numbers assembled in each group, which was a mistake but they were rushed. Cooper for example was ready to part with money - he offered some to Tina. He could have placed bundles in his brief case then floated the brief case down river hoping it would be found, as a diversion, then going some other direction. That is one possible scenario. That would be consistent with him avoiding detection and perfecting an escape. The same for finding no parachute. All the rubber bands prove so far, is that they were rubber bands. Tom is trying to use them as a clock of something, without even having the Ingram-find bands to test! The lack of physical evidence means you can't do tests and real comparisons! Tom is trying to do a work-around, just as he did when first encountering silver nitrate but did not connect that to FBI finger printing technique which was standard protocol in 1980. (all kinds of wierd explanations were tried to explain black bills including river water electrolysis/lightening ... and exposure to cow urine! The whole thing was amateurish at the time). I think "hand burial" by somebody at Tena Bar is equally amateurish.

Tom Kaye has claimed that because of the condition of the rubber bands, and his tests on similar rubber bands, that this restricts the arrival of the money on Tena Bar to no more than a year. A: Tom doesn't know what the 'condition; of the rubber bands on the Ingram find was, now does he. He wasnt there. He had no samples of the Ingram bands. And, as a matter of FACT: he was not able to duplicate the /condition/ of the Ingram bands because, he had no Ingram bands or band fragments to try and duplicate or compare with. The most Tom is entitled to say is: MY RUBBER BANDS I got from Alliance would not have survived more than a year, whatever that means. We were always promised an engineering report from Alliance but Im almost willing to bet Alliance never came through and provided one. If Tom did finally receive an engeering test report, as they promised, then where are Tom's test of 'his' rubber bands which duplicates the Alliance engineering test report? I want to see actual stress tests, temperature tests, etc etc. The tests Tom chose to do may not actually duplicate the conditions the Ingram bands experienced - its an open question. In short, I dont think Tom is entitled to draw any conclusions from the few tests he did, and his tests are not quantitative, and he's missing the Ingram bands to compare with - - - I give this 'human intervention' idea a possible motive. Suppose you were the hijacker A: You are big on Motivations. Suppose you were a camel! Yes, I think at least one of the bills, or more, should be turned over to a suitable science A: One bill? Representative sample? How any and which bills would be a representative sample in your motivation? As it stands now, the money actually creates more questions than the answers it offers. A: I tend to agree. There are a few very clear-cut issues with the money that might be worth having answered and possibly have ramifications. However, between the FBI and Tom, there does not appear to be anything obvious 'in the money' which would positively link it to the Washougal basin, especially a longterm stay there. One central problem is we dont really know how much was on Tena Bar to begin with, if the Ingram bundles are an isolated group, or part of a larger group of money, that was in a container perhaps. There is this persistent rumor that part of a briefcase was uncovered by the FBI during their excavation? Taking the evidence which currently exists, about the only two things that can besaid of that money is: (a) the money evidences traits and markers of Columbia River water/sediments, and (b) the money has traits/markers of having been at Tena Bar and perhaps Tena Bar specifically, as opposed to other places. Tom and others keep wanting to use the rubber bands as a clock, and I dont think anyone has proved that case with reliability yet. And I dont think the choice between Mechanical vs Human Intervention vs Natural, has been proved at all, because for one thing all of the logical possibil- lities in each catagory have not been listed or explored, in Toms work or anywhere else. We know that things arrive on Tena Bar hydrolog- ically all the time, but evidently not a bunch of paper money. Other things including other paper, cartons, wood, etc arrive there all the time, but not bundles of Cooper cash. Maybe the cash got there inside a dead camel, inside a paper carton, on a beached steamer bound for Reno? Maybe the reason the money hasnt solved anything to date is because so little hard data has been furnished about the money that matters, in years of work! Du ya 'spose? Screw MIT and Melon, as per Blevins' suggestion, where I have plenty of friends and relatives! FBI's Quantico and the Forensic Section of the US Treasury Dept could analyse that money, and should have already. Get this one-trick poney on the road...

Not to mention the fact Tom was only looking at 3 bills - not a representative sample. I made other arrangements but they fell through at the last minute. One does what one can do and then gives it up.

Its not as simple as that, Amazon. Currency paper goes through several chemical processes involving a number of compounds (brighteners, softeners, fixatives, etc) and one may be Titanium oxide (a whitener-softener which helps seal the fibres and keep them flat for printing) ... let me consult my files. But the chemsitry is very specific in that serie of bills given Cooper. I think a number of the compounds used are bacteria resistent - for a few months at least.

Let me try to answer these: I suppose due to constraints of space, Tom is just giving conclusions; not the whole process that occurred to support his conclusions, but to what extent, I don't know. He doesnt give any references either, so I basically agree with your reaction. I wanted more and better - it would be customary to cite references and citations somewhere (at the end of the website)? It leaves me unsettled. The chemistry of currency paper is to some extent resistant to bacterial invasion - by design. Let me consult my files and I will get back on this. Failing that I can call my paper chemistry guy who worked at the Mint and ask him again, specifically. Tom probably has an answer to this because (frankly) I dont think he would stumble into this blindly. His conclusion(s) may be wrong, but its not something he would make up out of wholecloth. For one thing, he had a materials person working with him, who is some kind of expert on breakage and degenerative processes ... I think that person probably had some input into this, but you would have to ask Tom. Silverfish: Those hole patterns are quite similar, plus they work in upper layers of shorelines where there is decomposing wood etc. One thing did strike me along these lines, given Tom's use of the word 'cuts' or 'cutting' in reference to species like silver- fish. It isn't as simple as 'cuts' (and consumption). I know that for a fact. Species like this often secret enzymes which softens and starts the digestive process of the things their jaws are cutting or chewing ... and enzymes like that would show up in an analysis, and especially in dna. In previous posts here at DZ some people aksed if the holes (and pitting) was the result of high velocity sand (from the dredge pipe)! We went around and around about that. Snowmman finally said "NO!". Unless I am mistaken, Tom didnt seem to find very much sand embadded in the fibres of the paper - which kind of surprised me. That may indicates this paper never encountered high velocity sand... But I keep coming back to the vertical profile of habitable zones you can take through a shoreline, and the different species you would encounter in each zone. Palmer dug a deep trench but apparently didn't keep lab samples to document the vertical profile, which might have been nice to have to compare with species found (or not found) in the money. It would have been a simple thing to do.

Maybe DMSE at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Maybe Center for Molecular Analysis at Carnegie-Mellon. I dunno. I would sent a query letter asking A) If they are interested. B) What you want them to look for. C) Ask why THEY would be best for this job. D) Set parameters on how much of the bill they can 'take' (see: destroy) for research, if any. ["If I'd observed all the rules, I'd never have got anywhere..." Marilyn Monroe /reply] E) Include Name and Return Address.

TK website: "Enough holes were present in various stages of decomposition that it could be determined that the holes were not clean cuts from insects, but appeared to start as a color change (Fig. 1A) progressing to shredding of the fibers (Fig. 1B), and finally to all the fibers in the hole disappearing (Fig. 1C). This is most consistent with a bacterial colony that is consuming the paper."