georger

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ G replies- Thats a funny way of putting it. Dissolve? Not in water they dont. At least not quickly. Rubber bands are a little more complex than Tom let's on. And it's "these" rubber bands ... which have a particular chemistry. And a number of lifetime options depending on environment. Let's just say that at 2:30pm on a Thursday after six months exposed to the Cooper Effect they magically go "poof"! The Law of Rubber Band Cooper Extinction. (On Tina Bar as opposed to on Uranus) I guess I could of used deterioration, or disintegrate. let's put a bundle out there and see what happens? we can talk about it for a year, or watch it over a year? no more guessing.....another "assimilation" as Jo calls it Quote Better yet, ask Tom where temperature comes into the "poof in six months" rubber band equation? And God forbid we shall mention "melt transition" ? Screw chemistry!

we know the rubber bands dissolved in less than a year. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ G replies- Thats a funny way of putting it. Dissolve? Not in water they dont. At least not quickly. Rubber bands are a little more complex than Tom let's on. And it's "these" rubber bands ... which have a particular chemistry. And a number of lifetime options depending on environment. Let's just say that at 2:30pm on a Thursday after six months exposed to the Cooper Effect they magically go "poof"! The Law of Rubber Band Cooper Extinction. (On Tina Bar as opposed to on Uranus) Yes .... its sad. We all know people who have balls of rubber bands they have made. I dont see any of those balls going poof after six months! Huh??? Some of Barber Mike's rubber band balls are thirty years old!!! Holy shit! Sad!!! Poof!!! ??? Now that we have found 20,000 billion trillion living exceptions to Kaye's "poof in nature Law" what shall we do? Just ignore Barber Mike's balls sitting next to his picture window soaking up UV at Mike & Bob's Barber Shop since 1962? I guess not all rubber bands are alike, or equal? Rubber is sad. Oh! Where does Mike get his rubber bands. Newspapers and his wife is a librarian. She's the one that orders the rubber bands for the library from the same damned place Sea First got theirs! But we will keep that a Ckret!

I mentioned erosion - I'm just not convinced the end product would be so uniform - but I guess it's possible. Also wouldn't this process assume an external moving force (water) over a stationary object (rock)? Would the same uniform process be likely on a stationary object in sand? Or if you hold with the washdown theory would the same uniform erosion be likely if the object is being propelled through the water? Things with weak-long atomic and molecular bonds tend to be rounded off (at the corners) quickly, in nature. Corners stick out and experience accelerated erosion. Water contains particles ... sand for one thing. Water contains both particulate matter and bacteria... Tom determined that the holes in the paper, for example, began as entry points for colonies of bacteria. See his website. Paper swells when wet. Corners separate in layered paper because there is less concentrated mass per area there. That offers an entry point to corrosion by particles and bacteria ... the corners go first.

That's a great question. One of the articles said that using it to start the fire was suggested by the bro / bro-in-law, but Daddy Ingram saved the day. Who knows if the story is legit? Everything has been guessed at for the holes and the edges. Bugs, diatoms, flare burn, dredge markings, friction, cleaning agents, I could go on and on. I've always favored the insects, rodents, and birds, myself. the holes I can understand, but, it looks like surgical munching lol. most of the bills are equal all the way down around the edges? just another crazy thought I guess. I say we pitch in a couple bucks and plant it on the beach and check on it every 1/4 out of a year? 30 or 40 one dollar bills should be enough.... Hey - I've often thought that if someone had started several experiments when this thread first started we'd have quite a few years of data now.

Word has just reached me that a witness on board 305 has been interviewed and shown photos and turned thumbs down on both KC and Duane Weber. Eg. "ears stick out way too far" etc - Weber ... "nothing about him matches, nothing..." - KC There is other news but Im going to let others pass it along .. nothing said about LD??? Was he in contention?

Word has just reached me that a witness on board 305 has been interviewed and shown photos and turned thumbs down on both KC and Duane Weber. Eg. "ears stick out way too far" etc - Weber ... "nothing about him matches, nothing..." - KC There is other news but Im going to let others pass it along ..

This fits with how Cooper held his cigarettes while smoking. Another "tell". Only smoke jumpers at buDop with PKD and leg deformity who dont fit any witness description do that!

I don't doubt it was microfilm - just saying there is one more discrepancy to add to the other million. And if you're looking for one format - you might overlook the other. But it really shouldn't matter if there are other copies of the "original" list out there. We're just wanting the pizza, not the box it came in.

Richard Tosaw, a lawyer and former FBI agent represented the Ingrams in the 1986 Tena Bar money settlement. I guess, maybe he saw a list other than the alpha-numerically order list. He also wrote the book "DB Cooper Dead or Alive" published in 1984, which has the list of serial numbers. Evidently he didn't charge the Ingrams for legal services but was promised a few of the Tena Bar twenties. Article link below..... G replies - So? We know/knew Tosaw. Read the thread. Do you know where with whom his Cooper files are?

Or an unaccounted for $20 slipped through the cracks of the various accountings? Here is Tom's version "directly from 'the' FBI documents" he says: So you don't waste any more time on this. Directly from the FBI documents: "Ransom money in the amount $200,000 was made up entirely of used, random 20 dollar bills. It was obtained from the Seattle-First National Bank, Main Office, and was part of a ransom package of 250,000, which had been maintained by the bank for such emergencies." "The entire list of the ransom bills had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank, and has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills." Here is Larry's more detailed version: "This is a big misunderstanding about the money, it all had to be manually scanned. Tellers had a bill list of all 10,000 20's and if someone came in with a boat load they would do a spot check to see if any of the serials poped up." ... and ... "The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this. The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed it over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered." ... and "I then went back and re-interviewed the bank security manager and found out that he wasn't directly involved in packaging the money, only carrying it to the airport. He was relaying what their normal procedure was for processing and packaging money for shipment. But the bank switched its procedure in this case. The funds that were given to Cooper were not pulled from their circulating cash but from a security fund that was prepackaged for these types of incidents. This money was not strapped because the bank did not want any subjects to know where it came from so it was packaged with rubber bands. " ... and "Everything was scanned into a microfiche as they assembled the bundles ..." .... and ... "The money: The FBI does not provide funds for situations like these. In this case SeaFirst Bank loaned the money to NWA, who then repaid SeaFirst in the following days. NWA then submitted a claim to their insurance company, who fought it, but ended up paying the claim after a court battle. " $$$,$$$.$$ The FBI was passive in this whole transaction. It was NWA who received a "loan" and had to account for it. Apparently, from what Tom says, the loan was for $250,000 and it was NWA on the hook who then had to account for which bills were used and which were not used and were being returned to Sea-First ... with the FBI assisting in the accounting and verification? This accounting had to agree with the claim NWA gave to its insurance agent. The entire list of the ransom bills given to NWA had previously been microfilmed by the Seattle-First National Bank. As the money was placed into bundles at the bank a new microfiche was made of that list of bundles. The FBI was given a copy of the bank 'bundles' microfiche in a canister. (Was $250k put into bundles or just $200K? ) Eventually the FBI compiled a SERIAL list of the bills it said had been part of the Cooper $200,000, probably using the bank microfiche of the new Cooper bundles. (Tom says: "has now been incorporated in a 34 page pamphlet of ransom bills.") The FBI and at least two other entities would have had to have had copies of the Sea First 'bundles' microfiche. NWA, and the bank itself, and later NWA's insurance company and the Court! That microfiche is evidence not just for the FBI and law enforcement but for NWA and the bank, and then the insurance company, and the Court - because this transaction went to trial when the insurance company at first refused to pay! So when Tom says the canister is lost ... what about the other copies and canisters or duplicate paper printouts et cetera? ! Tom few lines of "Directly from the FBI documents" merely scrapes the surface of this affair. Larry previously described it as "making my head spin". This is not to be critical of Tom. I am just saying there is more to this than a few lines conveys. More than one player had copies of the bank's 'bundles microfiche' - in one form or another. That was mandatory for a host of reasons. Once the matter went to Court, now more copies are required. So, the loss of one copy/canister cannot be all that crucial or if it is .... then we have a different kind of problem! All Tom encountered was a loss of the microfiche at one source only. The picture I have is the FBI was passive in this whole matter. They helped facilitate. The transaction was between Sea-First and NWA. Then handed off to the FBI to give to Cooper. Had the FBI captured Cooper at length and then found its damned canister was missing, does anyone seriously think a duplicate copy of the microfiche could not have been produced quickly? Guess again! Everything is done in triplicate! This isn't the corner grocery store losing it's broom. Lastly, what does RANDOM mean in this matter? Used $20s stockpiled from countless sources ... did the bank actually use a 'Linquist sorter' to sort the bills by serial number into a trully random distribution. I doubt that. I think the word random is relative in this case and the totality of socalled 'random' serial numbers comprising bundles, would not be quite as random as one thinks, especially if no real effort was made to randomise; like using Linguist's random sorting machine. . . which incidently casinos in LasVegas refused to use, because a casino depends on a non-random predictable distribution of cards etc... a distribution skewed in favor of, the house.

If "in-order" refers to alpha-numeric and the FBI was able to determine which serial numbers were left in the bank, That Tom could say this with a straight face is screwy on its face. Since when does the Seattle FBI do the "accounting" for the Sea First Bank!? Telling the bank how many of its bills were used, and not used, months later !!!? This is another propeller story! Moreover - there is another element of this tale I can't divulge that makes this even crazier! This contagion of privilege and "stupid" must be deep and I am not just making hay here at Tom's or anyone's expense. This is plain stupid-ridiculous with a major disconnect in how the world works. Fact is: the FBI apparently doesn't want to talk about this, and apparently Tom doesn't either. Tom says the FBI has taken a 'hit' because of Marla and Blevins. Major hit>wont talk> missing canister> ..... Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. What's up Doc! Yibbiddy Yibbiddy Yibbiddy. Is there anybody home in there? And the cats in the cradle and the silver spoon Little boy blue and the man in the moon When you comin home, Dad, I don't know when, But we'll get together then, You know we'll have a good time then. How many players are on the board here? Players please identify! The game will be suspended until Marla and Bevins are found? Well will announce it through Tom Kaye or Jerry Thomas!

If we are not on the same page...this is What i'm saying..... Imagine the bank had 100 stacks of 20's with 99 random bills in each stack. They also have 100 index bills in alpha-numeric order set aside. As they bundle or wrap the bills, each of the stacks get 1 of the index bills on top. I got that - I just don't know why they would do that if the rest of the bills were random. Why not just record the bill that is randomly on top of each bundle and then sort them alpha-numerically? There's your index. I'm just not seeing the benefit behind taking the time to count out 99 bills in each stack so I can put a random bill on top that I have pre-selected to be my index. Maybe if the bills were consecutive, but they were not. Plus if I took the time to do this at all I wouldn't start from the middle of the list of bills. I'd start with the "A"s......

L55 479 078B 63A is CORRECT!.....Thanks for looking! 12 bills apart is by far the closest of the thirty serial numbers I've come up with. If each of the two L55 bills was on top of a bundle, that represents 4K of the 6K Tena Bar money. I would think there is some significance to it. Maybe there is some rhyme or reason to the importance the top or bottom bills for Bank bundle management. Tom Kaye says the microfilm show stop/start serial numbers on each bundle. Maybe the bank stores the bundles in alpha-numeric order based on the top bill only. While the internal bills are random. Like they chose a run of L55 bills (or a run from page 30 that includes the two L55 bills) to put on the top of each bundle. Maybe maybe maybe ... This case is full of people doing work-arounds and guessing and maybe's. Including the FBI! It's time to close this case as a monumentally botched job. This case wouldnt make it to first base (in any Court!) due to primary evidence being lost, alone. Keeping this case open is nothing but a persistent embarrassment. The canister and film record being lost IS the end of the story. Everything else is conjecture. The Cooper case isn't a mystery. It's a GIANT SCREWUP!

Looking at a better picture you are probably right. What I like about the picture, it seems to show a bundle of money stuck together and undisturbed. The picture was taken within just a few days of the money find. (maybe a day or so after) I still think the bill on top could be the top or bottom bill, still bundled until the rubberband fell away when touched. I was able to figure out the serial number even though Page 30 (the page it should be on) is not listed at the FBI vault. The Serial number is L55 479 078B (1963A) What is even more interesting.....From Gray's book... ***"Himmelsbach picks up a packet of bills. He reads the series number. "1963", it reads. He writes down the serial number "55376548" It seems the Packet/Bundle? of bills would be stuck together like the Oregonian pic shows and he could only read the outer SN. The Serial Number on top of Ralph's packet is L55 376 548B (1963A) The Serial Number from the Oregonian pic is. L55 459 079B (1963A) There are 10,000 serial numbers and these two outer bundle numbers are probably within 60 serial numbers of each other on the list. I need to verify when I find page 30. WHAT ARE THE ODDS OF THAT???? Here's a better shot of that band!

I can imagine a lot of things.

Its not my quote! Tom Kaye's quote! Take me outta yer heddah. Hello Muddah Hello Faddah

Attached is a picture of a Tena Bar bundle from the Oregonian on Feb 13 1980. I'm 90 percent sure there is part of a rubberband on the top of the bundle. If it is part of a rubberband than the serial number on the top bill is either the beginning of a sequence or end of sequence for one bundle. The top bill serial number should be on the Microfilm that was found showing stops and starts of bundles. The Microfilm Tom Kaye spoke of. if you are talking about the area I have circled on the photo provided, it's not a rubber band. it's part of the oval where the pic of the prez is. this photo has bothered me for a while. Correct. Its another phantom. The crystalised band fragments do not look like that, even remotely. Consider these. In the last photo sand particles are mixed in with the extinct band remnants.

It's always seemed odd to me that a bank would tie up 250K in currency just to have it ready for "such emergencies". At whose insistence? Was the bank compensated for this? Did other banks do this? Did McCoys money come from a similar bank stash? It sure wasnt in the shareholders best interest to have 250K not earning interest. 377 $250k would be a minor amount for a large bank to set aside for contingency reasons. It might have even been a requirement. TK says we are wasting our time with this - that may be the understatement of the Century.

In "what" order? That is the whole question. What type of ordering?

I originally thought recording the bills was done at the FBI office also - but now everyone is saying it was previously done at the bank complete with microfiche (at the bank). I think Tom just told me it was all done at the bank .... ? .... but now I don't know. Different accounts. Which account is correct. It may also be that Ckret's saying the serial numbers were randomly distributed throughout the 100 bundles may be a metaphorical fact vs. literal fact. It all depends on what kind of distribution was in the original 10,000 twenties at the bank and how 'that' distribution was shuffled (if at all) in preparation for delivery to Cooper. Somebody's list somewhere had to reflect that distribution. The microfiche would have relfected a distribution as bills were fed into it. But Ingram's bills don't seem to reflect a trully random distribution. Why and what does that prove?

I have no idea. I'll try to look into it. Take a look at the following I developed from newspapers, DZ, Gray's book, FBI vault. Cooper Money and Serial Number Timeline Nov. 24 1971 - Cooper demands 200,000 in negotiable American currency. Denomination not important. Seattle First National Bank employees debundle paper wrapped used 20 dollar bills ($2000 per bundle) and rebundle them with rubberbands in *various amounts* to make it appear they were in a hurry. The Serial numbers are already listed on Microfiche at bank. The marked bills have been set aside in case of robbery. The bundled money is placed in a canvas bag. Once full it measures 1 foot by 1 foot and 9 inches high. The next person to touch the money is Cooper in the plane. Cooper offers Tina Mucklow a bundle of money but she declines the offer. Cooper jumps with money from plane. Dec. 8 1971 - FBI distributes a "Random list" of the known Cooper serial numbers nationwide. The list is 34 pages long. 1976 - Several newspapers print a 34 page list of Cooper serial numbers in alpha-numeric order. Feb 10 1980 - The Ingram family is on a picnic at a spot locally known as Tena's bar on a Sunday. (The beach is owned by New Columbia Garden's company.) A popular fishing spot. Brian Ingram clears the sand to ready an area for a campfire. He finds 3 bundles of money a few inches underneath the sand. Brian alerts his parents. The money is set aside while they continue their picnic. The Ingrams take the money home and wash the money to seperate the bills. They call the FBI. Feb 11 1980 - The Ingrams take the money to FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach. Ralph has a list of Cooper's serial numbers in a booklet. Ralph goes through all 1000 serial numbers in the booklet to find the first serial number from the Ingram money. Suggesting Ralph's list isn't in Alpha-Numeric order or the Letter at the beginning of the serial number isn't available. Feb 12 1980 - FBI Agents go to Tena Bar to try and find more money. They find fragments of more money up to 3 feet deep. Feb 13 1980 - FBI agent William Baker claims originally the "money was bundled in packages of several sizes to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry". Baker claims the money amount estimate at Tena Bar was originally $4000 but has been revised to a few thousand. The actual amount can't be estimated because the money was bundled in various amounts. FBI agent Baker claims the packaging and the numbered sequence of the bundles indicates the bundles had not been seperated and they were in much the same order as delivered to Seattle Tacoma airport. 1986 - The money found at Tena Bar (approximately 6 thousand) is split evenly between Ingram and the Airliner insurance company. Insurance company claims they will sell bills to collectors and Brian will use his money for college. good finds will review tonight ... I am chasing two guys who might know something about this. Il be back tonight if I dont melt first!

G asks - I have a question which may be crucial. Did the Seafirst bank in 1971 have the ability to sort its bills by serial number? Or would they have had to do this by hand? (It a very time consuming process to hand sort!) Would their contingency stache of bills have been a random distribution or already sorted by serial number, and if so how? What sorting technology did thery have? Today bills can be scanned electronically and sorted automatically. If their bundles were a random distribution, then very likely they microfiched and copied right out of the pile. The fiche might reflect that distribution. If it was in serial order their fiche might reflect that. None of this of course guarantees the FBI's list is/was an extact match of the Seafirst fiche listing. The FBI may have made their own list, in serial order? But Larry went to some pain to say the bills in the bundles were a random distribution. If we take that literally then the occurrence of any given serial number in any bundle should reflect a 1:10,000 random distribution no matter whose bundles they are (insurance company or Ingrams or FBI's). If the plot of serial nubers for a given bundle diverges beyond a predictable standard deviation from randomness, then something is suspicious and Larry was wrong ... or there needs be an explanation. Do you get where I am going with this? All we need to test this is the serial numbers from several bundles, and in fact statistically we dont even need that many numbers in order to test the hypothesis of a random distribution, to within acceptable significance. If the bank told the FBi there was a random distribution of serial numbers in the bundles, the facts of a bundle or two should reflect that. What do you think?

Dogs have sweaters!

Very informative report! I found the two following newspaper references at Tom Kayes website regarding Tena Bar money find. http://citizensleuths.com/tenabar.html Click "Here" at very bottom of Tom's web page. I haven't read the articles. Maybe Tom talked about what exactly is in the articles. The articles sound confusing. ***Numbered sequence of the bills in the stack still the same (Oregonian) FBI agent Baker from Portland said bundles were randomized (Oregonian) I would like to see those Oregonian articles. Im going to dig further on this when I get the time. We have an extreme heat situation here plus daily work plus school starting etc. so its a bit nuts here right now - with little real sleep. I will get to this asap.

Your contention that he Ingram find represents bills from at least 17 previously packed and recorded bundles ... requires proof! If what you are saying is true that would be a BIG revelation ... as you very well know. Yea! It sure would and the FBI would NOT be happy about that one. It would only prove that Cooper survived and planted the money. G replies - No it wouldnt. It wouldnt prove Cooper survived or that (he) planted the money any more than it would prove your paper bag story for Duane is true. A number of scenarios could account for this - and all ending in 'money flowed to Tina Bar'. Very likely all accounts would involve human intervention by someone, because its very unlikely Nature could (construct) the bundles Ingram found complete with rubber bands! It could be accounted for in typing errors at the bank or FBI .. Nor does human intervention even require a plant. The money could have been lost in the vicinity of Tina Bar then flowed there even after human intervention. You're just strying to get one more jab at the FBI; why should the FBI be embarrasssed about "facts" ? The FBI didn't suggest Duane Weber was DB Cooper! That was your gambit. And the FBi rejected it wholesale! The FBI scored 100 on your case. The rest is just all propganda and dialectical materialism on your part.