snowmman

1969912 said: "Infiltrating the FBI offices might be more enlightening..... " We had the man inside. The whole friggin plan just blew up in our face, now we have to throw money and lawyers at it, cover our asses, retrench and plan a new attack. Sluggo was right. We should have went nuclear from day one.

I think we left it as the micro-analysis of the water flow doesn't matter. i.e. assume it's whatever you like for whatever scenario you want. All that matters is resolving this "how did the money move" and "did it move multiple times" and "did it move after '74" I think since there are plenty of scenarios that end with "possibly", then that money movement discussion has been played out. There's nothing left there. I thought we had discussed actually everything possible. This recent thing of not accepting the flight path, or the 1980 science around the money and clay layer...kind of just means we're back were everything started two years ago. Don't know anything. No reliable data. Could be anyone. Could be dead or alive. (edit) Hell, I'm not even sure about NB6 vs NB8 or hard pull or not!

"Georger, remember, half the people in WA have someone waiting for them when they come home, or call the cops if they don't. DB didn't have that." I posted some data from the 1970 census, for OR and WA, back in the thread. Good for estimating the total # of possible Coopers (a bound) if you believe he lived in OR or WA. (they had a breakout by race and age groups). I think I had estimates based on married or not, also. They were just getting going with computerizing drivers licenses. I forget the exact year.

Jerry, georger posted daily data from the Camas area I believe, starting in 1974. we were talking about surges then. so yeah, you're right, there are these micro surges from rain or snowmelt. Georger has done more work in this area. He's got some yearly graphs, and might remember the years more. He'll respond. I'm not sure where you're going with it though, Jerry. What would it mean? We kind of went thru stuff like that, but it didn't make us think anything dramatic. If it did or didn't happen, why would it matter (in those particular years)

(talking about the to-be-peer-reviewed paper here) What's important is the fact that we have no idea what they're studying. I really doubt that the study is an attempt to solve the Cooper case. Hope not, anyway. The study is likely very limited in scope. If not, then the author(s) might look xxxxxx. Enough for now. Don't sweat this thing Jo. I just want the clay layer report and all those color photos I saw of the money dig on TV. If we can validate the clay layer science from 1980, that would be huge. We know they did that science. I think we also know they did some science on the money itself. There must be another report. (not just a geologist offering opinions on money decomposition) And let's validate the flight path. Regardless of what Tom said about the money, he was going after the flight path also, since he asked about the flight recorder. We may have to do the night jump from helis down air shafts on the FBI building instead. I've done the research: no alarms in the ventilation shafts. They actually share their building with other offices, from what I can tell? Maybe we need to open a fake office in the building. Why not just review the science from 1980 first? Why do we need new science before we understand the old science? Safe told us "Believe and you shall see the light" I want to believe. Duane told us "And it shall die with me, and ye shall have peace"

there are some interesting geologic maps from the state groups in OR and WA. OR is doing a big program to make all their data work on an interactive map,which looks really cool. But they're not getting to the Portland area till this year. There are other maps available. There are big iron deposits by Portland area, for instance. I've not looked at WA stuff yet, but was wondering if there is anything geologic that's useful. I'm thinking not. I was intriqued by the iron just west of the Columbia by Portland. Was wondering if Columbia bottom could have high iron content there.

We've posted on rainfall/floods during the relevant years a lot. I'll repost some of my posts (georger had some too) and see what you think. ------------------- interesting document here: http://www.usace.army.mil/...s/misc/un24/c-15.pdf page 9 describes Portland District floods and flood control. Heavy winter rains in '71 and '72 '72 floods in northwest/west Oregon. '72 flood prevention effort. Temporary sand plug at the lower end of the Columbia Slough in Portland, to prevent flooding of North Portland neighborhoods. 100,000 cubic yards of sand spread over the railroad embankment west of Delta Park golf course. They say these two things helped prevent flooding. page 10 Jan '74 had flooding Nov,Dec '77 had flooding, as you say. So: the Columbia may have had high water levels in '72 and '74 also.

Jo said "Snow I cut some of the post out just to keep it a bit more brief. Did you know that long term mole on paper and cloth becomes holes? Something that is stored in a damp place will eventually rot and that was the process going on with the money." Yes, and everything in the Northwest is covered with moss in the winter. The question is: where did this mold go to? Did the Ingrams remove it all before the FBI got it and photo'ed it? Did it die after eating the holes? Is there a no-trace form of currency-eating-mold? Yes mold could have done it. Or any plant life. But what happened to evidence of the plant life, in the photos? Plants are cool because you can see them. Even mold.

Seems like a bad guess. I would have thought roots would leave remnants that would have been visible in the FBI bundle photos. No roots visible there. Did the Ingrams wash the bills? I always thought so, and thought that the brittle edges were debraded in the cleanup the Ingrams probably did. Would any washing have cleaned out roots? Don't think so? Don't know. Why do I say cleanup? No sand on the bills. Why is there no visible sand on the bills? That leads you to making a statement about why. If the bills were wet did all visible sand get "brushed off". Or did the bills "just dry" and then visible sand fell off? Or did the Ingrams rinse them under the sink, removing brittle edges at the same time? (edit) Tom said: "You would really need the stack intact to say something. " That's possible. But one never knows. I throw out a crappy photo, and nitrochute identifies it as a b12. You can't know what you don't know. Amazing problem.

Hi Jo. Some people articulately argue for social behavior that represents the best of their personal values, or a social subgroup like skydiving, scientists, law enforcement, nuclear weapon smugglers, etc. (editted for my bad taste wrt recent news) Maybe we have to send Tom to Hostage Negotiations 101. See, he came on and said "I have something, I'm not going to tell you what it is, and eventually the whole world will know" So how are we supposed to act? There's no value in "buying-in" to anything Tom asked for, because no matter what we do, we get the same results. We find out when everyone else does. And he implied the results are the same no matter what we do, since he doesn't need anything from us.

funny sluggo. yeah, when I was thinking about counterfeiting some Cooper bills, I was thinking shotgun pellets might help, or an icepick. Hey: another thought: if the face and edges were most exposed to insect attack, how come we don't know if the edge decomposition is due to insects, and the combination of brittleness and eating, caused stuff to break off to get the rounded effect. How do you rule out insects eating from the outside in, and creating breakage points? I guess you either say "we didn't analyze for insects" or "insects were not involved" or "insects were involved" Or you say nothing and hope no one brings it up?

I posted this a while back. I think it was LA Times or something that had the photo. This is a pic of the found Fosset money and ID cards, which led to the plane find. Interestingly that one of the bills is brown/dirty. But you can see the money tearing/decomposing already. The money was loose, at alititude, snow also. Wasn't out that long though? I forget the exact amount of time. reposting the GE overlay that shows the plastic find, the Shirt find, the ID find and the aircraft locations, in case people didn't see it at the time. (the Fosset crash site)

If indeed the holes are insect related, then why don't all of the bundles have similar rates of holes? They seem to have similar rates of edge decomposition. Any asymmetry is interesting. I pointed out the "black bill" asymmetry already. My group's paper has that title actually: "Asymmetries in Product Placement: The D.B. Cooper Event" (edit) Looking closer at it (my Norjak photo), it does appear there is a bias to the holes being on the left of the face side. We've heard explanations of the money find that include the money being stacked or smooshed together. (unclear of exact find description) If they were stacked, it might explain asymmetry due to insects (outside faces/edges most exposed...edges all exposed to water/sun/?-related effects)

For everyone else who's been researching insects which eat wood and paper in the Portland/Vancouver area, obviously the question is: at what depth of soil do these insects live, and what rate do they eat/destroy? And during what seasons of the year? Good scientific questions. (edit) and which types prefer dry materials, and which types prefer wet materials.

Yes. My faint memory is that I saw some that made me think they appeared to line up. Note that it looks like there is one main bundle that had holes. They don't all have holes. I'll have to go back and find pics of individual bills that have holes that seem to line up, but they may not exist. Remember we've not seen a lot of individual bills. It is possible to guess at hole depth when you stare at a lot of the bundle photos. It doesn't appear to be solely on the surface bill. I can't understand a mechanism other than insects that would lead to that kind of decomposition. But like I said, an expert might give us good info.

For people who are not aware of the scam known as "Scientific Publication", I'll provide some detail. There's a lot of money flow. Library subscriptions are a main contributor. Nowadays it's moved so that the articles are sold online. Paid subscriptions per article, or yearly "get everything". The scientists that publish the papers, are under pressure to not make the papers available at personal websites post-publication. This is because the free access, takes away money from the "scientific publications" The scientists buy into this, because getting published in a "name-brand" publication enhances their status. You need a certain number of these kinds of publications etc. to get tenure. Basically quantity, and "quality" of the magazine count for a lot. The main money flow has to do with keeping this idea of "esteemed science" so that reputations can be managed and "dumb guys" excluded, and "smart guys" branded. But in reality, there's an exclusive club thing going on. A funny prank, was that someone created an online paper generator that was buzzword complete, slightly random. It generated papers (computer science) that were accepted at conferences. The idea of "peer review" can be pretty weak. The guys who do the review, use the brag of saying they are reviewers to enhance their reputation also. In short, it will be interesting after publication, as to whether we can even see Tom's paper without paying. It's a big scam. Printing online makes publication free now. The only value-add of these "scientific publications" is image enhancement...it goes all the way back to parents being convinced certain schools have better teachers than others, and that a certain level of tuition is "worth it". These types of crimes are legal though.

skywhuffo said "A few rambles back you aske where the metal Info came from. I found this." Yeah, we've digested everything from the videos and text that has been put up at the news sites. You can see the videos of Alan Stone here. It's interesting to ponder how Alan Stone has digested information. Why did Alan Stone say "it's a surprise to find it where it is"? I mean finding metal anywhere would be a surprise. Is he talking about "where it is" on the money, or "where it is" in terms of the money find location?? How much has Alan Stone read/seen about the Cooper case? Unclear. The video also includes Tom Kaye agreeing "Maybe" when asked if the money may have been there the whole time. That seems inconsistent with the hidden Clay Report, but maybe Tom Kaye hasn't seen that report. It sounds like he hasn't. (Or disagrees with it). Or maybe Tom won't be able to resolve down to one theory..i.e. just present data. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFkhUbs4bfA&feature=channel_page (edit) I would note with all this talk of keeping info quiet till publication, that there's only a couple of us here going on tv and talking about it (while protesting on DZ.com to not talk about it)! Funny! Who's insane? Who's sane? Can't tell! Duane is God!

Beautiful writing on the fishing boat stuff 377. (edit) actually now that I'm reading the whole thing..on your whole life. Really powerful stuff. Nothing beats real experience for driving good writing. Reading it makes me feel it. Where's the psychoanalysis though? :) 377's link again: http://boeing377.googlepages.com/fishingamontereyclipperoutofsfsfisherman

I didn't realize how to deal with Moire patterns due to scans of halftone images when I did the last scan. Looking at the image I just posted, and the book, I realized I could get a better image (within the 300k limit here) I just rescanned it, and got rid of the Moire effects. Better picture. I included the caption so you can see it's from the Norjak book. page 124 attached. (edit) deleted my prior post, this was the text in that post: I'm reposting this just as a reminder of the apparent (to me) insect holes. The quality of this photo isn't as high as the recent auction photos, but it reminds you that the holes where there at discovery in 1980.

I'm musing about how all the facts seem to point to a human deposit of the money, although there is no motive that would seem to support that. Here's a new train of thought. By assuming natural transport, we assume the only contributors to decomposition are sun, water, and mechanical action due to Columbia River movement. (edit) and microbial decomposition, or decomposition at a molecular level. I was wondering again if there could have been a chemical accelerant to the decomposition. I think Georger has jokingly mused about cow urea. We've talked about nitrates/nitrites (from fertilizers etc) in the dredge spoils. So our theories about rate of decomposition could be way off. I'm publishing a paper about this in six weeks. I hope to publish before Tom. Science is a cutthroat business, publish or perish. But let's focus away from the rounded edges. Let's focus on the little holes in the money. It got me thinking "Should we have found anything growing on the money?" We didn't see anything growing on the money. Maybe burial prevents that. But we saw holes. These could be from ants, termites etc. I'm guessing more due to insects, than decomposition. We need a WA area termite/ant/insect expert. I don't think worm, but maybe there are some small varieties. See: there's this belief that Tom Kay is somehow the perfect expert. Safe has promoted that view, that Tom Kaye's data/theories will be inherently "better" than "armchair logic". I don't think we have the right experts yet. (edit) I have to organize all my Cooper Bill photos I've accumulated, but I attached one good one from the Ingram auctions to serve as a possible "insect" example. Georger: note it's the pattern of the small holes, as well as the size, that suggests insect rather than the other decomposition modes we've discussed.

This whole recent behavior by folks really fails the sniff test for me. Tom Kaye has betrayed his hand, because publishing this paper is really, really important to him for some reason. The peer review his paper gets before publication will in no way be appropriate peers. They'll review the stuff in the paper, but they will in no way be informed as to what's not in the paper. They can't know, since there are no DBC degrees or training programs that educate. Carr seems to have betrayed his hand, because there's obviously more info that could be released, but isn't being released. Sounds like either a continuation of the stage show, to try to flush out Cooper clues/tips, or an attempt to control information to try to "prove" something about what happened to Cooper. I'm reminded of a shaggy dog story. Also: Jo. I understand now why you're crazed. You were driven insane as part of the DBC experiment. While I think Duane had nothing to do with it, I think you're responding to the overall craziness of the whole thing. It's like going into an epileptic fit watching certain cartoons on TV. (edit) Oh ps. I'm not digging at Jo. "crazed/insane" is just a recognition of her focus/drive etc. Not necessarily negative.

I found the reference. In "The Real McCoy" page 157, when they're talking about the Cooper hijack. (remember the co-author was FBI agent in Salt Lake City: Calame. Calame did the research. The other guy did the writing) verbatim: Cooper jumped with an NB-8 military chute which had a twenty-eight-foot canopy.

nitrochute gave me some good info and it reminded me that there is still the possibility that Cooper jumped with a NB-8. I read recently in one of the Cooper books, a mention of NB-8, so this recent talk jiggled my memory. Also, Galen Cook apparently talked to Cossey, and says that Cossey was "pretty sure" the rig used by Cooper was a NB-8. Apparently Cossey told Tosaw way back that it was a NB-8 also. Carr says it was a NB-6. It would really be interesting to see the report that says it was a NB-6. If Cossey ever said he was "pretty sure" it was an NB-8, then where did the FBI get NB-6 from? Some initial interview? Could there be errors? Could Cossey have misremembered? Nitrochute might be able to prove the 28' in a NB-6 is really bad, but we really, really have to resolve this issue. NB-6 or NB-8. If NB-6, where's the report that says that? (edit) Nitro mentioned that the ebay item could be mislabelled. Obviously we can't see the 28' canopy. (edit) thanks for the air force b12 ID, nitro. Man you're amazing.

"Why do journalists always think they have found something new? Guess its the salesman in them. " Exactly. Cooper has always been about what people wanted to see. So journalists write the story people want to read. At least it seems that way. He's less "everyman" than he's "whatever you want to see"

Right. And add the new data. That we have someone who is a reasonable scientist, and believes he's discovered something that gives him some strong views on what happened at Tena Bar. And the FBI doesn't want him to disclose some archive material till he publishes his paper. (crime waits for scientific paper publishing deadlines?) It all doesn't make sense. How does Tom know he's correct? He doesn't even think there's a Tina Bar Clay Report???