snowmman

The 70's had a big transition. Since we're talking 1971, maybe only the old foil stuff was available. Maybe I was thinking of the cockpit voice recorders when I talked about overwrite. Just getting started looking. from boeing site: History of Flight Data Recorders Flight data recorders were first introduced in the 1950s. Many first-generation FDRs used metal foil as the recording medium, with each single strip of foil capable of recording 200 to 400 hr of data. This metal foil was housed in a crash- survivable box installed in the aft end of an airplane. Beginning in 1965, FDRs (commonly known as "black boxes") were required to be painted bright orange or bright yellow, making them easier to locate at a crash site. Second-generation FDRs were introduced in the 1970s as the requirement to record more data increased, but they were unable to process the larger amounts of incoming sensor data. The solution was development of the flight data acquisition unit (FDAU). As shown in figure 2, the FDAU processes sensor data, then digitizes and formats it for transmission to the FDR. The second-generation digital FDR (DFDR) uses tape similar to audio recording tape. The tape is 300 to 500 ft long and can record up to 25 hr of data. It is stored in a cassette device mounted in a crash-protected enclosure.

Tom And others may chime in here. But my foggy memory on the Flight Data Recorder conversation with Sluggo, led me to believe that the length of the flight might have led to some data being overwritten. I.e. it was designed for accident investigation, so it overwrote because of limited storage back then. Endless loop kind of deal. (on a crash, you don't have to worry about this issue) Not all data had the same overwrite behavior though. (I think there were two storage mechanisms? not sure) So what you want, is what data would have been available in Reno, without overwrite..ie..all the way back to the jump site. This is an important issue, I think. I'm just dumping my thoughts before I go looking in case someone out there has some stuff in their head to help steer. (edit) Paper? I guess I never would have thought paper for a 1971 flight recorder. wire recorder or something, maybe. will see.

snowmman 06-05-2008, 12:16 PM interesting Sluggo. More Science is always better! My wife likes to say "Only Math can save you now!" I've been wondering about this whole thing with the jump zone being predicted (the '72 map) using a combination of USAF radar data, and flight recorder data and etc. Based on what's been said about what the flight recorder might have held, I can't picture how radar data could be merged with it. It seems to me that the flight path would be solely based on radar data. Do you know for sure what a 1971 flight recorder would have held for data, and how that data could be merged with radar data, or even confirm radar data. What it feels like is that the DZ was predicted with radar, and they had all this other info, but it's unclear if any of it was useful. Your thoughts or more info?

sluggo posted this last year in response to a question from me, at another forum. Hell even Ckret never cracked that secret club. Lucky: we were doing import/export to Pakistan and Brazil. I never really looked, so will start by keying off Sluggo here, or maybe Sluggo can chime in some more. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- (snipped sluggo's first response that had no data. Note that Sluggo had some caveats about correctness and accuracy. So don't assume he's representing anything as gospel here. I'll try to find more based on this) Sluggo 06-05-2008, 02:44 PM snowmman, I am no expert on Flight Data Recorders (FDRs) and Flight Data Acquisition Units (FDAUs) but here’s my read on FDRs: In the late 1960s and early 1970s, new recorders that could retain information about the engines, flight controls, flaps, etc., to fully assist accident investigators were required by the FAA. Whether there was a requirement for back-fitting older aircraft, is unknown (to me). These units recorded 25 hours of data on a continuous loop tape. Most FDRs of that era (1971) recorded: Time. Altitude. Airspeed. Vertical acceleration. Heading. Pitch attitude. Roll attitude. Longitudinal acceleration. Control column or pitch control surface position. Thrust of each engine (Throttle position). Here are a few of the parameters recorded by some FDRs of the era (1971): Time Pressure altitude Airspeed Vertical acceleration Magnetic heading Control-column position Independent Pitch attitude Independent Roll attitude Longitudinal Acceleration Rudder-pedal position Control-wheel position Horizontal stabilizer Fuel flow Time of each radio transmission either to or from air traffic control. I’m sure that regardless of which of these parameter sets were being recorded the time, pressure altitude, magnetic heading, fuel flow, and (if recorded) radio transitions time were all synchronized with the radar data to refine the flight path estimates. Sluggo

TomKaye said: "I need an example of the RAW black box data from that era, preferably from a 727. " Sluggo and I talked about this way back when. Sluggo knew some stuff on this, but I'll see if I can find anything. Hey this is like The Matrix scene with Trinity: Neo : Can you fly that thing? Trinity : ...Not yet. She takes out a cellular phone, and calls Tank, who is back at the controls. Tank : Operator. Trinity : Tank, I need a program for a V-212 helicopter...Hurry! Tank finds one, and presses load. Trinity's eyes flicker with REM for a few moments, and then snap open.

Thanks Tom. I'm a powerseller on Ebay. Since you'll be hanging onto your evidence, when you need to "lose it somewhere"...I'll be able to help. :)

377 I know you've looked over the recent release of Bush memos authorizing military use in the US for domestic terrorism investigation. Since rescinded as policy. Interesting that in 1971 they worried about this when using military for the Cooper search, and called it "training exercise" If there was an SR-71 spy plane overflight of the US, as part of a domestic criminal investigation in 1971, that would be huge interesting news. (CIA -> domestic) I think it's bullshit that Tom Kaye got fed. Maybe someone took a joyride and said "oh yeah, Cooper investigation related"

Here's what they missed. Even I, whuffo, would have realized that if some jumpers would have been invited to the party (well, BASE jumpers at least), there would have been hot babes, everyone would have gotten laid, and regardless of Cooper evidence, more fun would have been had.

got it. I'm being perfectly straightforward in saying I don't understand what Safe is trying to get at, and I'm not trying to be a prick. I thought last time Safe surfaced he made a one-liner or two that I interpreted as "it had to be Duane" and I don't know why I thought that and now realize I was probably wrong in guessing that. Is Safe now saying the evidence still points more strongly to a live landing? Or maybe he's not sure and just saying it's not as neat as the papers/Carr/Video/Propaganda are making it out to be.??? (edit) Guessing about what other evidence Safe might be thinking of: The positioning of the bundles? The lack of bag or other bundles at the find? ??? Not sure.

[Thumb's up emoticon] Agree almost completely. What am I missing? What's the thumb up for? I want to see a message but I can't see it? What is it?

Hi Safe I agree with you, and hope you can expand on your last post you said "For example, you can't just throw Cooper in the Columbia and solve the puzzle because the evidence would contradict that hypothesis. " I believe you're referring to the apparent current disregard of the clay layer data. I thought that's what was interesting about Tom K's comments...i.e. that the clay layer data might be wrong. Are you referring to other evidence, (Rat's testimony is fuzzy, so you're probably not referring to that), or ??? I know I'm willing to follow the evidence. But I also know I don't understand what people are saying sometimes..??? (edit) Hey Safe: maybe I don't understand my personal bias. If you have a one-liner impression of mine, let it rip, it will help me. (edit) Safe: I don't follow this: "The mistake is in assuming that an army of people watching this flight in real time made such a large error. " The tools they were using to watch the flight: regardless of the size of the army, why would they have been able to tell where Cooper jumped? I think the size didn't matter. It was the tools and how they were used that created the vagary? Can you expand?

Bruce said: "And also Charlie Farrell, and the story of how Himmelsbach got to be the face and voice of the FBI investigation. And where is J. Edgar Hoover in all this? In fact, I find the mysteries of the FBI's Cooper investigation are as compelling as looking at the details of DB Cooper himself. I believe the two are linked. Specifically, I sense strongly that looking into the FBI's activities and decision-making process will give us a direction that leads to DB Cooper's home or grave." Now you're acting like a member of the 4th estate, Bruce. You can see that Tom Kaye has already commented on it. Now everyone knows the tools and techniques we have today were not available then. So what. It's like pointing out that NASA didn't have the right stuff either when they launched stuff and that's why people died. Doesn't matter really. What was, was. If you read thru this forum, there's a constant battering whenever I bring up something that can be construed as a dis to the FBI, and I say that there could be more info they could release. (simple examples: The clay layer report. The reports on dredging. There's a boatload of examples. Were jumpers from the '60s investigated, or did they just talk to current 1971-era clubs) I don't mind Ckret doing whatever he feels like doing, from nothing to something. What really bugged me was how he assumed people should defer to him, or cut him some slack, independent of his actions...i.e. be treated different than anyone else on this forum. He at least should have realized that he's in an enviable position (for the Cooper thing only) compared to everyone else. Even if the data is disorganized, random, inconsistent, on crappy paper, he can look at it. We can't. We have to rely on drippings we scrape off of tv videos, where there's obviously a little propaganda going on. And then act thankful for it. And if I'm not nice to people, all the time, I'm both stupid, evil, more stupid, low life. etc. So the more name calling you see, yeah, a journalist should ask "What the fuck? Why do people get emotional? What's at stake here" If you take the TV vids at face value..i.e. the FBI opening the evidence vaults to amateur sleuths, then why all the secret club stuff going on here, and guys like Jerry Thomas pretending they have secret data from Himmelsbach? And why is Himmelsbach monitoring the forum? And ask Ckret point blank why he went away. The probable answer would be "The forum is a waste of my time". That makes sense. There are rumors he was told to leave. Is that true or false. It may be a stupid detail, but everything with the Cooper case is a stupid detail. It's all fucked up, isn't it. For human interest, you can throw in the Jo story. I'd like to remind people while I've totally drunk the 377 religion on the benefits of warmth, towards Jo, I don't believe Duane had anything to do with 305. I would point out that Jo actually doesn't mind the humor in my little things like the avatar. Yeah, Bruce, you could write a story "Does the FBI still cover ass, 37 years later". (edit) BRUCE: Most people have no idea what the CIA did in Vietnam, still. Not that it matters now. BUT it's interesting how the web is becoming a depository for first hand accounts from all the people that are 50-70 years old now. I find it fascinating. That Air America clip is fascinating. Have you see the slow mo I put up at dbcooperxfiles on youtube? I could give you some higher-res frames of that if you want for your article. It would be a reality check for readers (that they would love)..that they really don't know what's true or what's false with Cooper. We have no idea who Cooper is or what happened. That's the story. (edit) We're still debating the fucking winds, and whether a helicopter went up that night. I still see press accounts that say "-7" without qualifying it as "-7C Outside Air Temp at 10k feet" and that ground temps were moderate. (I can't even remember if -7 was the right number from the transcripts. I think it was) (edit) And at the very least, don't let lies get sent out to the US public. If there's no investigation. Fine. It doesn't matter. But don't say there's an active investigation when there's not. There isn't one. No one wants to pay for one. That's fine. That's why it's just us nutbags on this forum. There's no one else. (edit) Another frigging joke. Tom Kaye throws out a line that he's seen something that says the SR-71 was involved somehow in the investigation, and we're supposed to be impressed. CRAP! Tom K. even you're shovelling it. Either say what it did, or forget about it. It's like everyone wants to imply stuff happened that likely didn't.

ckret's post was: Sluggo, I cannot find where an interview of Bohan was conducted by the FBI. His statement is a bit out of what had been reported by the various weather services the evening of the jump. To that end, as with all of the factors on the evening of the jump, you have to keep in mind that humans beings were involved in this incident. Human beings that don't have all the pieces of the puzzel in front of them. Human beings that don't know whats going to happen from minute to minute, and so on...... Some how you are going to have to take a look at the incident from two directions, a keen investigator with information after the fact and (this is the tough part) a person in the moment (with their knowledge and skill set) not knowing whats going to happen next and just reacting.

georger mentioned the meals and said "Did he jump on a full or empty stomach? " It's interesting to ponder whether, after you round up the cash, you would consider my setup "Cooper-compatible" if I'm allowed to stand in front of some meals and stuff food in my pockets before you dump me. Here's a thought though. If Cooper realized he might be jumping in the woods, he might have grabbed something (remember my comment about him not being worried about running out of matches when he was smoking with Tina?) Not grabbing any food, maybe might say he wasn't worried about jumping into the netherwoods, even though it was obviously dark/raining etc. But then again, he could just be stupid.

Went back to the Norjak book. This time, a close read gives me a better feel for what happened with the heli. It does confirm two FBI agents in a heli on 11/24/71 like Jo said. taking off from PDX (page 47). However it also says (page 47) they only had 30 minutes of flying time. They apparently were in the air when the jet came close to Portland, because they debated what would happen if the bomb blew up the plane (page 47), raining debris. When the chopper went back to PDX, Flight 305 was 60 miles south of them. on page 51, it then says "What do you think, Ralph? Did he make it" I was back at Portland International Aiport now, after the futile chase in the chopper. This seems to imply that Ralph was in the chopper. But why did the prior reference just say "two FBI agents". Maybe Ralph was not in the chopper. In any case. A chopper was in the air on 11/24/71. Himmelsbach definitely flew his own plane the next day. (page 57) H. takes off at 9 A.M. in his Taylorcraft (didn't have the Beech yet). to search. Because of the weather, he was only able to fly for 2-1/2 hours. The helis were flying over the week after 11/24/71 (separate accounts in Norjak), with the helis from different sources (we've touched on this a little before). But if he was flying his plane 11/25/71, it sounds unlikely that H. was in a heli on 11/25/71. Maybe H. was not in a heli either 11/24/71 or 11/25/71. Don't know.

reposting to rejiggle our collective consciousness. If this was answered or resolved, please reply. 1996: first news saying Himmelsbach/helicopter. The earliest newspaper reference to Himmelsbach supposedly trailing 305 in a helicopter, that I can find, is in 1996. More recent article says he followed an airliner over the route the next night in an army helicopter, as part of the search? Maybe that's the truth and got turned into him following during the hijack? It makes more sense, because I don't see how he and Mayfield had a phone conversation if H. was in a helicopter that night? DB COOPER LEGEND STILL UP IN AIR 25 YEARS AFTER LEAP, HIJACKER... Rocky Mountain News - NewsBank - Nov 24, 1996 There was also an Air National Guard helicopter carrying FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach, frantically trying to keep up with the 727. ... DB Cooper's fate unknown; legend thrives Hijacker parachuted from... Kansas City Star - NewsBank - Dec 2, 1996 There was also an Air National Guard helicopter, which carried FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach and tried to keep up with the 727. The chopper was too slow. ... One giant leap into infamy 25 years ago, a hijacker known as DB... Fort Worth Star-Telegram - NewsBank - Nov 28, 1996 There was also an Air National Guard helicopter, carrying FBI agent Ralph Himmelsbach and frantically trying to keep up with the 727. ... DB Cooper expert doubts latest claims. The Columbian - AccessMyLibrary.com - Oct 27, 2007 Oct. 27--Ralph Himmelsbach has heard every DB Cooper story there is to be ... and the next night followed an airliner over the route in an army helicopter. ...

(edit) Thanks wolf, for the post above. Thinking about evidence around winds. There's this factoid about Himmelbach being in a Reserve search and rescue chopper that night, but not being able to catch up with 305. Then there's the story that H. didn't ride the chopper till the next day. Have we sorted out which is true, and whether a chopper really went up that night? We know when the HC-130 went up and where (much further south). We know about the other planes and intercepts or lack of them. What kind of winds can a Huey fly in? And what alititude would the helicopter have been at? Jo has said there were 2 FBI agents on a Huey that night. Lt. Col. Gale Goyins and Maj. William Gottlieb were likely the Oregon Army National Guard pilots on the chopper. Can anyone add to this or correct? (edit) picture of the cockpit view from Goyin's National Guard Huey, of Mt. Jefferson during a search. Gives you a feel for how you have to worry about the volcanoes in the area when flying!! I posted this before. (edit) max crosswind spec for the current UH-1Y Venom, replacement helo for the legacy UH-1N, is 65 km/h = 35 knots I can't imagine that the earlier UH-1 could handle more? If a heli went up, doesn't that give us an upper limit on wind speed? (edit) reading stories about heli pilots and winds gusting to 50 knots. Not sure what helis consider "too windy to fly".

good summary wolfriverjoe. There are a couple other things, maybe someone else can add. wolf: I posted data from a live flight recently (from that live flight tracking website)..They don't stay high very long when going from KSEA to KPDX. A lot of time descending. (edit) this was a small jet. Unclear weather. So it's just a thought stimulus. They're not using V23 for the short hop (now in 2009), but doesn't it show something about descending into PDX which the Continental flight claimed to do? (edit) I just realized we don't know where Continental was coming from. Maybe what you meant was being steady at 14,000 ft for a long time was unlikely..i.e. why did he call out 14,000 feet? He probably transitioned thru a lot of altitudes, with wind changing thru the transitions? I'm not a pilot, so I'm belaboring the point, to make sure I understand...maybe you can reiterate, wolf? (edit) Note this guy went to 19k feet fast, Maybe Continental went to 14k instead of 19k, stayed there a little longer since it didn't have to descend as far. I guess we don't know if Continental took off from KSEA. Maybe like you suggest, it was enroute from somewhere else, in which case it would definitely be higher (maybe even a J airway?) prior post: here's the flight tracking info for a flight from Seatac to PDX just recently: 2/10/09. Route wasn't V-23? 28 minutes. Interesting he only went to 19000. Spent most of the flight descending? looks like the log is missing 1 or 2 minutes at the start. Time Ground speed Pacific TZ Latitude Longitude kts Altitude (feet) 11:48AM 47.35 -122.32 218 5900 level 11:49AM 47.29 -122.33 223 9300 climbing 11:50AM 47.20 -122.33 258 11900 climbing 11:51AM 47.10 -122.33 323 16200 climbing 11:52AM 47.00 -122.33 353 19000 climbing 11:53AM 46.89 -122.33 367 19000 level 11:54AM 46.79 -122.34 373 19000 level 11:55AM 46.69 -122.35 373 19000 level 11:56AM 46.58 -122.36 373 19000 level 11:57AM 46.48 -122.37 373 19000 level 11:58AM 46.38 -122.38 373 18600 descending 11:59AM 46.28 -122.39 361 16700 descending 12:00PM 46.20 -122.40 341 14600 descending 12:01PM 46.12 -122.41 329 12400 descending 12:02PM 46.04 -122.44 312 10300 descending 12:03PM 45.99 -122.52 273 9100 descending 12:04PM 45.94 -122.59 259 7600 descending 12:05PM 45.90 -122.66 246 6100 descending 12:06PM 45.86 -122.72 228 5000 descending 12:07PM 45.83 -122.77 200 4300 descending 12:08PM 45.79 -122.80 175 3000 descending 12:09PM 45.75 -122.81 164 3000 level 12:10PM 45.70 -122.83 164 2500 descending 12:11PM 45.66 -122.79 163 2500 level 12:12PM 45.64 -122.74 149 1900 descending 12:13PM 45.62 -122.69 149 1100 descending 12:14PM 45.60 -122.64 149 800 descending 12:15PM 45.58 -122.59 149 12:16PM 45.56 -122.55 149 12:17PM 45.54 -122.50 149 another example 737 KSEA to KPDX is here http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASA9003/history/20090208/0356Z/KSEA/KPDX/tracklog looks like this path might be the more standard KSEA to KPDX flight path nowadays? more KSEA to KPDX examples here: http://flightaware.com/live/findflight_route.rvt?origin=ksea&destination=kpdx

When someone posts, and first thing is calling someone else a liar, when the poster offers no information of their own, I digest that as a personal attack. Additionally, I've been told Jerry has harassed Jo, more than warranted, in the past. I believe my response to him was appropriate, as a result. If I am wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected. Jo could be dead this year. Hell we all could. I'd hate myself if I stood by and watched unnecessary harassment. Am I harassing Jerry? Yes, based on my perceptions of his actions. Can he take it? Don't know.

Can someone summarize what new info arrived this week? I'm reviewing and I'm not sure if I have it all. No. 1 on the list for me was Alan Stone saying there's an active investigation. Flesh out the list. I was thinking of another thing. In the past we were presented with scenarios where the magical bag offered rubber band protection of sorts. Whether in the water or not. I got the feeling this week, that there's been an acceptance of the idea that the bag may not have changed the aging characteristics of the rubber bands..i.e. the bag would not have prolonged degradation as much as, say, complete isolation from oxygen and microorganisms. (for instance, total sand burial) I thought that was implied in the news articles, but I'm guessing. How do other people parse this? How come the theories of bag protection and floating log rafts weren't mentioned by Tom Kaye? They always seemed weak. Has Tom dismissed them? Did Tom Kaye ask the rubber band folks about bag protection? Or is soaking in water, sufficient to cause the rubber band degradation? Even if we don't know, what are people assuming now? I'm totally confused about this. It makes me think there really wasn't much info this week, other than the chemicals and metal on the money, and the entry of Alan Stone into the fray. Another new bit of information, for me, was Jerry's apparent statement that Ralph Himmelsbach monitors this thread. If so, Hi Ralph!

Can anyone quote the length of 5, 10 and 15 minute road flares? I had a train of thought here in the past and maybe we can re-explore it. (edit) nigel99: funny! it got a half-coffee snargle. Not full, but half :) (edit) road flare sizes aren't as standardized as you would think. Close, but not exactly. A couple of companies now dominate. I'm not sure in 1971. Five minute road flares are fairly uncommon for obvious reasons (road events usually last more than 5 minutes). Train flares are shorter because they are used for signalling. I went over the signalling conventions with train flares before. I don't think there's anything we can gain from this line of thought. It just reminded me that it's easy to say "road flares" without being precise about what one is proposing. "road flares" means different things to different people. (for instance: think of 30 minute road flares with the spike on the end!) I think we have to say "probably" a lot when we describe Cooper's bomb. If there is more information to remove "probably", let's get it out of the closet. (edit) p.s. I thought "woman" on my back tattoo avatar. Georger got me thinking maybe I was wrong. I welcome feedback.

I didn't. You came on and called Jo a liar. I replied and said you have no new info. So how does Ralph know where Cooper jumped? I guess I'm calling you a liar...i.e. you claim to have information. I believe you have no information that's credible.

exactly my point. Jerry. There is nothing you know that we haven't covered. Actually you don't know they were road flares. railroad flares would be about the same length. Can you quote the length of 5, 10, and 15 minute road flares?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/02/national/main4838971.shtml?source=mostpop_story 13-year old spent the night in the woods overnight. temps dipped into the 20s. Who would have thought? Hey Jerry: we already have one virtual wife beater on the forum! Jerry: Serious question. How does Ralph know when Cooper jumped? Summarize.

Interesting jury-rigged dynamite bomb switch back then. http://www.opednews.com/articles/Detective-Jack-Swanson-wit-by-Michael-Richardson-081114-636.html I was surprised to see the size of the dynamite sticks here in this case, 16" by 2-1/2" each. Much larger than the standard dynamite sticks: approx 1-1/4"x8" ,or so. "Investigation revealed this bomb consisted of three 16-inch by 2 ½ inch sticks of dynamite, a battery, a blasting cap and was triggered by a clothespin type switch. The string attached to the wedge was passed through a hole in the suitcase when the bomb was detonated." "Two and a half by 16-inch. This is Red Cross du Pont 50 percent strength dynamite….When these individuals were arrested in July, I called back and talked to the owner and the manager of Quick Supply and described the dynamite….He said if this was 2 ½ by 16-inch sticks, he was almost positive it had to be their dynamite…[/url]