snowmman

Georger mumbled: "ja boot, vas das Coopernik hapt dos nicotene stains onder his undt fingerz, or vas hist fingerz free from nicotene blemish@!? Ja? Makes big difference in psychotropic gestalt, ja?" This is pretty unreliable I guess, but on page 146 of "The Real McCoy" Agent Jim Theisen from the SLC FBI office is quoted saying: "Mucklow noticed the first two fingers on his bare right hand. Said they had dark yellow stains"

I'm reading about inorganic particles in soil they are sorted by particle size clay: .001 mm. and less silt: .001 mm. to 0.03 mm sand .03 mm. to 1. mm gravel 1. mm. to 32 mm. stones 32mm and over This is just one grading. Could the "clay" settle thru the sand, while everything is in slurry? (because it's so fine??)

nice photo work georger. you're always good with the photoshop. it really does make you see things that aren't as obvious in the original photo. We really need the FBI report. I'm dismayed that Tom thinks one doesn't exist. Did Ckret see one, or was he quoting "stuff" that exists in everyone's mind?

thanks nitro. it's hard finding pics of the older ones. There are some that show up on ebay nowadays surprisingly. I'll keep an eye out for other pics. I hadn't looked at this in a while. The more modern ebay rig advertised NB6 with 28' canopy. Do you think the modern 28' canopy fits easier in a NB-6? or would the nylon fabric weight/thickness be about the same as it was back in '71? I was confused because we talked about it being a hard pull with a 28' canopy...and there it was, right on ebay. (the more modern rig) (edit) here it is $1200. Claims new is $1700?? Note it's May 1995 MFG date Is this a good hijack rig :) The same pics that have been posted are here. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/US-Navy-NB6-Parachute_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116QQitemZ150080385359QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ5fPartsQ5fGear Mills C-9 28 Foot Canopy - Date of MFG May 1995 New, Never Used. In Original Pack Placed in Service 1/4/07 Parachute Certified 1/4/07 Good for bail-out speeds up to 150 MPH A Top of the line Backpack Emergency Parachute in New Condition. Very Comfortable to wear ...

Hi Jo, the past is the past. Let it go. (edit) If you don't, I'll change my back tattoo, I swear it! :) The only thing that matters is people's behavior going forward. (edit) Note this includes you, me, everyone. Past wars are boring. Everyone has them. (edit) I can't believe our embedded journalist is really pursuing MKULTRA, and at the same time spouting all that psych speak all serious-like. Does the DBC thread bring out everyone's inner whackiness?? (including me) (edit) Does the DBC thread sometimes feel like watching Midget Bowling on Youtube? I think so? Maybe by design?

I just noticed this one I posted above, seems to have a right hand pull. (attached) I don't see adjustments for the legs. Were there any (late '50s NB6)

9 photos attached. NB6 1-4 are the same NB6 rig that Sluggo posted. It is/was for sale on Ebay. It had a 28' C-9 canopy packed in it. I can't find the reference for the year right now. I've included two shots that Sluggo didn't have, that have closeups of the writing on the NB6. The two photos labelled NB6_1958*, are the 1958 Switlik NB6. The 2nd photo has the writing on the rig, that identifies it as such. I don't have a picture of the rig showing the straps though. The third pair of photos, labeled Navy_NB6* does show the straps. Unclear of the year, although it seems similar to the 1958 photo? Last photo is unknown, but could it be an old NB6? The webbing looks pretty mank? (edit) Nitrochute: can you see my point about how the Parachute_NB-6_02.jpg straps seem different? Could I have misidentified that photo? The NB6_1958 (Large) is more definitely the 1958 Switlik NB6 and the other side seems to match the one for which I have pics of the straps.

Hello Shelly. Which new image? Of Tena Bar? The montage georger posted (I created that from the 3 FBI photos in the '70s, plus a current Google Earth photo. We have very high quality photos of the Fazio's from overhead now. I published those before. I've published an ever larger montage of Tena Bar (some fuzzy) from the '90s thru now. We discussed those because fishermen (apparently) parking were visible. (edit) Shelly: Google Maps allows you to get the same resolution photos now, as Google Earth (in most cases). If you're curious, you can use Google Maps to zoom into a location at even higher resolution than some of the recently posted photos. We've posted tens of photos of anything one could dream about, so I'm not going to repost any, but will post a link you can click on if you're curious about something. (edit) Shelly: we use photoediting software to zoom the FBI photos and rotate them. So you might not recognize the areas from other photos. They are small in other photos. Big when we post them. We crop out unnecessary stuff. I've never done any enhancement, adjusting brightness/sharpness etc, because I don't want to be accused of distorting a picture to lean towards a bias. I did post a picture of a counterfeit Cooper bill, with a correct serial number. And a Seattle FBI business card with Sluggo's name on it. Lots of stuff.

(edit) They have used the "clamshell" like shovels, with barges, on the Columbia. But odds are with a pipeline dredge for the '74 dredge. They have cutterheads on pipeline dredges. They can cut rock even. Rocks get caught up in the pumps. The design of the pumps is interesting to account for max size rocks. Some handle rocks up to 24". The cutterhead is designed to cut the bottom, into pieces so that it goes thru the pump. Obviously they don't really do rock layers that much. But they hit mixtures. (edit) I think the max size thing that can go thru the massive dredge pumps might be bigger than 24". forget. I posted pics on this before. (edit). Don't know anything about the exact dredge used in '74 though. I explored what dredges the Portland Corps of Engineers was using then, but ended up uncertain. Tosaw published the size (diameter) of the pipeline dredge he believes was used in '74. This is important because you can infer the size of the cutterhead, and pump and max size of passed material from the diameter Tosaw published. However, this has all been dismissed (passing thru the pipe) for unknown reasons. No report, other than Ckret commenting on testimony from the dredge operator. (unknown name). Unknown if Tosaw talked to someone else.

verbatim from pp 110-111. Bold where I felt like it. We can discuss if there are any facts in it. George Holmes is mentioned as hydrologist. I suppose he's the "Corps of Engineers hydrologist". Palmer is also quoted having an opinion based on the state of the money, beyond the sand/clay issues. It is unclear how Palmer identifed "the dredge layer" uniquely from the other two layers on top of it (see his statement) I would note that Ckret's statement about "two feet" of materials is at odds with the description below. Minor point, but could mean that either Ckret or this statement is incorrect, or could be more precise. p110 How was the money deposited in the river bank? That question was the one most frequently being asked in the days following the Ingram discovery. Both a Portland State University geologist and a U.S. Corps of Engineers hydrologist felt the money had been deposited there by natural means. The scientists are men of solid professional reputation and background, who independently came to the conclusion that the money had been deposited by river action rather than having been hidden there. Both men visited the scene, and they did extensive research into past water levels, tides, dredging, and other factors that could have a bearing on the money having reached that particular resting spot. Portland State University geologist Leonard Palmer discounted a theory that the cash had been deposited in 1974 by Corps of Engineers dredging operations. Palmer noted that the money had been located in a layer of coarse sand that ranged from several inches to four feet thick. He found two other distinct layers of sand and sediment on top of the material dredged from the river. Palmer also commented that the bills were worn away in a rounded fashion and matted together, further evidence they had been in the water a long time. What shocked Agent Himmelsbach, now just weeks from retirement from the FBI, was the fact that the money was found five miles above the confluence of the Lewis River and the Columbia. Hydrologist George Holmes believed the Washoughal River was the only Columbia tributary that might have carried the cash to the location it was found. It now was obvious that the computer-pinpointed drop zone near Ariel in the Lewis River watershed was inaccurate, unless there was some way that a wad of bills had moved upstream in the Columbia, a theory quickly dispatched by the experts.

I just noticed the '72 DZ map was previously published by Himmelsbach in the Norjak book. When Ckret published it here, it was not new info to the public. page 50 of the 1986 Norjak book is attached.

georger said: "Ckret already referred to the Palmer report in prior posts. Those comments are open to discussion. " There is stuff in the Norjak book about the Clay Layer. But let's just analyze Ckret. I only found one post. -Ckret never referred to Palmer by name. -Ckret apparently mixed some stuff from the report, with his own commentary + interpretation, or interpretation from the FBI files. This is because his statement includes stuff that is pretty subjective. -Ckret said the clay layer was from the dredging. It was never stated how this was known. (edit) Ckret's phrase was "clay deposits from the dredging" -It was never stated where all of the sand above the clay layer came from. (edit) It is implied that some must have come from the dredging, because of the "sand and clay" phrase, but it is unclear. -I'm assuming SafecrackingPLF must have a copy of the Clay Report, or is using some other source of information. -Ckret said "The geologist that worked the site stated". So while there may not be a Clay Report, there must be testimony. I've broken out the sentences and labelled them for analysis. The only possible facts are (b) and (d). It is unclear how (b) could have been determined. Historical records? or measurement+theory in 1980? (d) assumes a truth of separate layers deposited in (b). The money was in sand. Was the sand from the dredging, or other sand? (b) says "sand and clay were buried there" It is unclear if it was deposited in layers, or as one homogenous mixed-up layer. Ckret posted on Jan 21, 2008: (a) If cooper buried the money on the beach upon landing that is where it would have stayed undisturbed. (b) In 1974 almost two feet of sand and clay were buried there. (c) I am sure, if Cooper buried the money he would have put the bag at least a foot down most likely more. (d) The geologist that worked the site stated that it would be of a certain impossibility that on its own the money could have broke through the clay deposits from the dredging and the dig showed no signs of disturbance in the clay layer.

hey nitrochute, thanks for the post. 377 is right, it's a LOT better when we get posts from someone who knows WTF stuff is about. (edit) that's a compliment, in case it's not obvious. In the past I had mused over this whole question of "did Cooper adjust the harness". I was wondering if it was sized for Cossey, if he could have got it on, and just left it as is. Maybe non-optimal. If so, maybe contribute to a no-pull a little. I was reading about these cases where the rip handle floats away and I was wondering about a maladjusted harness etc. Obviously I'm clueless, but I was wondering about all the issues around adjusting or not-adjusting the harness. I would think it would be a lot easier to look like you knew what you were doing, if you stepped into a harness that was just about adjusted for you to start with. (edit) oh by way of example: I meant sliders on webbing for adjusting. You can see I don't know how they adjust or the webbing. I realize you're talking about sliders as part of the canopy/deployment. I guess me, whuffo, would be looking for triple bar metal sliders or something to adjust on the webbing. Don't know how it actually works.

Who's office? Are there any markings on it? Any wear marks? People typically touch those plastic maps to show features to visitors and wear off markings in certain areas. Good clues sometimes.

Ralph's had a busy day. He called me today, ever gracious, to say he did not want to correspond regarding my DB Cooper research. I had sent him a draft mansucript of what my findings and speculations have been. What was Ralph doing? You're obviously C-list Bruce. Heck I got communication from Ralph today, about what planes he flew. You call yourself a journalist? :)

Hi nitrochute. I posted about this before, when I was talking about Sluggo's site. He has a picture of a more modern NB-6 here http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image108.jpg After I saw some pics of NB* rigs from the 50s and 60s, I started wondering. I believe I tracked down that model in the picture, to the 90s. I'll have to go back and check. But notice the purple trim webbing. My guess is that's one minimal thing Cooper's rig didn't have. The older pics I saw of other NB* rigs, even made me wonder if there were variations in how the straps were adjusted.. There's a question: was there variation in sliders etc? We talked about whether or not Cooper adjusted the rig. Unclear. But obviously if there was variation there, and we're looking at a new picture, assessing the difficulty of adjusting would be wrong. I'm also curious about all the nylon webbing, compared to what a 1960s era rig would have used. My old pics had sadder looking webbing.

Hi nitrochute. Can you list the minor changes? I noticed purple webbing (small amount) on the modern ones. Don't think they had that in 1971. Got me thinking about nylon back in the '60s. Any guesses on what year the Cossey model may have been from? (based on what might have been typical for surplus sales back then) I have some older NB8 ( I believe) pics. If you could summarize what you think the minor deltas were, then I'll dig up whatever I've got and see if it triggers any thoughts. (edit) The older pics, and discovery that not all NB6's came from one manufacturer, is what got me down this train of thought. Obviously I have little data, and am guessing a little.

Interesting. Is that the only copy that exists?

377 said: "You crack me up sometimes Snow." Obviously I'm just kidding 377. I loved the move "House of Games" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093223/ Note there is a shrink in the movie, like our embedded journalist. You are the rock. If we lose 377, we lose our VORTAC on sanity. But note how trust can break down in an instant. See that's what Tom Kaye misses, or really any secret club. Anyone can be "got" to. Because everyone is paranoid. Because conspiracies really have existed. from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick A confidence trick or confidence game (also known as a bunko, con, flim flam, gaffle, grift, hustle, scam, scheme, or swindle) is an attempt to defraud a person or group by gaining their confidence. Confidence tricksters often rely on the greed and dishonesty of the mark, who may attempt to out-cheat the con artist, only to discover that he or she has been manipulated into losing from the very beginning. This is such a general principle in confidence tricks that there is a saying among con men that "you can't cheat an honest man." Nevertheless, some tricks depend on the honesty of the victim. In a common scam, as part of an apparently legitimate transaction, the victim is sent a worthless check, which the victim then deposits. The victim is then urged to forward the apparent value of the check to the trickster as cash, possibly keeping a small portion of the money as a commission, which they may do before discovering the check bounces. Another fashionable scenario has the victim recruited as a "financial agent" to collect "business debts." Paper checks are not always involved: funds may be transferred electronically from another victim. Sometimes con men rely on naive individuals who put their confidence into get-rich-quick schemes, such as "too good to be true" investments. It may take years for the wider community to discover that such investment schemes are bogus. By the time they are discovered, many people may have lost their life savings to something in which they have been persuaded to invest. The confidence trickster often works with one or more accomplices called shills, who help manipulate the mark into accepting the con man's plan. In a traditional confidence trick, the mark is led to believe that he will be able to win money or some other prize by doing some task. The accomplices may pretend to be random strangers who have benefited from successfully performing the task. We can all take a little financial advice from Joseph Weil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil "Each of my victims had larceny in his heart," explained the master of hanky-panky. "The desire to get something for nothing has been very costly to many people who have dealt with me and with other con men," Weil writes. "But I have found that this is the way it works. The average person, in my estimation, is ninety-nine per cent animal and one per cent human. The ninety-nine per cent that is animal causes very little trouble. But the one per cent that is human causes all our woes. When people learn -- as I doubt they will -- that they can't get something for nothing, crime will diminish and we shall live in greater harmony." Weil died in Chicago in 1976 at the age of 100.

377 I know I argued for sending you the memo, but the group voted against it. We knew it would be hard to get someone in the vault. There was only one feasible plan. Obviously it worked, and it's played out well so far. I know the terrorist-cell-strategy is painful, and for me too, because I didn't get the memo on the next phase. I believe you were on that CC though. (edit) Duane is God. (edit) I like the street dog analogy. But the trash angle didn't work. They apparently shred everything first. Can we get to the shredders though?

Thanks wolfriverjoe. Post whatever you think is interesting from Poynter. It's worth reviewing from your point of view. With regards to sanity theories. No, there is no evidence that any posters to a DBC thread are sane. I think we all agree on that already? No way to prove?

377 said: "I used to get security briefings in the 70s when the hot spy tech weapons were Minox film cameras. Now an internet enabled cellphone with a camera can be an awesome spy tool." Well, the FBI was on to this next trick. It didn't work. Since cell phones run operating systems, they can run pretty sophisticated wireless network sniffing software. Some guys mailed a box with a cell phone on, to Ckret. The cell phone was running wireless network sniffing software, and programmed to send the results out by phone. The idea was that if you got the right info, then you could use a parabolic antenna aimed at the seattle building's windows, and a high-end 2.4Ghz xmitter/rcvr connected to a PC, to get you logged into the FBI local network. The problem apparently was that Ckret shot it with his gun, right away.

377: If Tom had told us he was going into the vault, we could have tricked him out with multiple cameras in his glasses etc, with DVRs for live video storage (multiple hours) We would have had tons of data to analyze, and perhaps info that would have helped us get in the vault thru the back door. remember, the only other access point we had was the FAX number that was not redacted on the FAX Ckret sent to Sluggo. That FAX was networked into the Seattle LAN, and my research showed there was a test diagnostic mode that could be activated from the call-in line. Apparently there was the ability to create diagnostic TCP/IP packets from the outside line. I thought that would be usable to ping the LAN and get info that could be used, in addition to the FAX's sniffing capabilities, but it turned out not to be true. In any case, we blew a big opportunity by not gearing Tom up appropriately beforehand. I almost cried when I found out all he had was a digital still camera. it's like sending a hijacker out the aft stairs with just a NB-6 and a broken reserve.

Tom, Since you're a scientist, you're obviously analyzing the leached material in the manila folder that the FBI kept the money in, correct. I know it's obvious, but just wanted to mention it, so people can look for it in your report, when you release it. Normally, you wouldn't expect the staining we saw in the photos. It might be nothing, but one would have to do testing to know it's nothing.

Who is the FBI DBC czar who first muzzled Ckret and now Tom? I voted for change. This isn't change. I am going to write to my congressperson and get some daylight shining in Seattle. Maybe they still have W's picture hanging in the office. Maybe J Edgar too. 377 Since everyone's revealing who's pulling their strings. I guess i need to. Obviously during the election transition I couldn't say much, but now that they're threatening to come after us for stuff we did during the Bush years, all gloves are off. When I walk the halls, I see guys dumping secret files now to 120GB thumb drives right and left. The biggest hole: they left the USB ports open on the PCs everyone had. Thumbdrive fits on your keychain. WHOOPS! Hey Sluggo was theorizing about Northerners and Sortherners. Here's my theory. Northerners call you a fat old man to your face. Southerners smile, offer you tea, and talk smack when you're not around.