snowmman

Thinking about loadmaster. The emergency rigs they wore back then were just a single main, right? No reserve? So why would Cooper ask for back and front chutes, if he was a loadmaster? (edit) Also thinking about the number of chest reserves in '71 without pilots...wouldn't you need training to understand how to deploy a chest rig? Or be whuffo? Wouldn't a loadmaster just ask for a parachute? (edit) looking back at Ckret's posts, he had a "loadmaster at McChord" theory last May. It seems like the McChord angle was loosened to be aviation-related job, but loadmaster was kept. I wonder if Ckret is still thinking loadmaster at McChord at some point?

Just noticed this funny (I guess not funny) related detail in the C-141 hijack attempt in Vietnam (during the war) that I posted about. The loadmaster was the guy who got shot by the hijacker repost: You remember when I posted about the attempted hijack of military jets in vietnam. There were apparently two attempts on c-141's. Now that's bizarre! here's an actual air force plane history document that mentions the hijack and PVT Georger Hardin. (shots fired, loadmaster shot, plane damaged) http://airforcehistoryindex.org/data/000/494/831.xml more detail from: http://www.c141heaven.com/mishap_paul_hansen.htm "Synopsis: During an enroute stop, the aircraft was boarded by a hijacker, who took several crew members hostage. The hijacker shot the Loadmaster. In a subsequent struggle, the crew members overpowered the hijacker. Only the Loadmaster was injured. The Starlifter was waiting for cargo during an enroute stop at Bien Hoa AB, RVN. The Aircraft Commander was at command post. The other six crew members were relaxing in the cargo compartment when a 20-year-old US Army Private entered through the open ramp, carrying an M-16. He ordered the crew into the cockpit and demanded that they fly him "somewhere". When the crew attempted to taxi, vehicles blocked their path. The hijacker ordered the Loadmaster into the cargo compartment, and then shot him three times. The crew advised authorities that the Loadmaster had been shot. The vehicles moved, and then again blocked the aircraft. The crew was able to communicate over headsets without the knowledge of the hijacker. At a prearranged time, the Navigator grabbed the rifle barrel, as the Copilot and Flight Engineer lunged for the hijacker. In the struggle, 13 rounds were fired into the cockpit ceiling. The crew members were able to overpower and disarm the hijacker before turning him over to the Security Police. The Loadmaster survived, but was medically discharged. There were no other serious injuries. There was at least one additional hijacking attempt of a C-141, also during the war in Vietnam."

Orange1 asked: "i'd be interested to know what you think a loadmaster's behaviour would have been like and how it differs from Cooper's." (edit) I guess I focused on loadmaster+military because of the FBI air force crew mentions. McCoy's behavior seemed more military..i.e. thinking "success" is tied to micromanaging a bunch of black and white details...i.e. "mission" style thinking. McCoy has been described as displaying how an experienced jumper "would do it" I think that's wrong, and I've printed the stuff that said he only started free-fall in Oct (hijack in April). McCoy's behavior seems military to me. I think his military-like thinking was confused into being described as "experienced jumper-like thinking". I think a loadmaster would not use as much of a fly-by-the-seat-of-pants type of behavior as Cooper did. Cooper seems to either be non-jumper, or civilian jump experience, to me. I think the initial request by Schaffner was passed incorrectly and that Cooper may have asked for "two back parachutes and two chest parachutes". I think the lack of further specificity (unlike McCoy) was not showing that he was whuffo, but more that he thought that simple instruction was enough to get him what he wanted. Note that he specified knapsack for the money. So he's thinking about giving enough detail, in his mind, to get what he wants. I think the lack of more detail, meant that things were obvious to him, that weren't as obvious to others (i.e. the emergency rig being supplied, unusable with chest reserve). But the "no jump experience" ...just whuffo, is a reasonable theory too. (edit) I'm second guessing myself, but thinking about LaPoint as another military background example, LaPoint was kind of wild. But he was a wild guy, just out of the service. Young. So dunno. Can't generalize I guess.

really. I just discovered it when they added their DBC vid. It's called FBIDOTGOV created May 21,2008 http://www.youtube.com/user/FBIDOTGOV You can see a closeup of the reward note TK included in the money bundles he littered/dispersed. They were put in the river 3/1/09 apparently. They have 12 videos. Just one DBC. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtKDb0gQ9hQ

TK was reported as passing on the manufacturer's information that the rubber bands could only last "in the wild" for 3 or 4 months. This is really bad stuff from a scientist because "in the wild" is pure emotion. It doesn't describe a test setup. Exposed to air/wind/sun? Or buried under sand/water? Sitting in water? What about damp sand? Or alternately dry/wet sand? O2 content of surrounding? Temperature? Some microbe assumption? or none? At best, it means there is at least one test setup where they "fail" in 3 or 4 months. What does "only last" mean anyhow? They can go crumbly and/or gooey and "last" dysfunctionally for a long time. Does "only last" mean "no longer functional as rubber bands are intended?" Or what? That they disappear? I mention this only for people doing science, since obviously there is no data in this quote that is useful. If TK is actually saying that rubber bands go past crumbly, in 3 to 4 months, for most or all of the theorized environmental conditions we've discussed, (burial, cold, soaking wet or ???) that would be huge new info, and we could discuss if it is accurate. But on it's face, I think we have to say "don't know if it means anything". The quote: (I corrected the typo referring to TK as "Burke" here) "They told us that rubber bands only last in the wild 3 or 4 months at the most," TK adds. "So this is in conflict with the idea that they would be rolling down the river for seven years," begging the question was the money there all along? Burke’s answer a simple, "maybe."

"Some guy" is a Disabled American Veteran, an aeronautical engineer, has jumped, and has 1750 flight hours. You replied: "Weather varies. Depends on where you're looking. You should talk to the FBI. They would know." Do you work for MicroSoft or something? (Answers to questions are 100% accurate and totally useless.) I'm glad to know you are serving this community by helping talented people who want to discover for themselves what might have happened on 11/24/2009. They are the kind of folks who don't just take the FBI's word for everything. I know you appreciate that. Good job! Sluggo_Monster Hi Sluggo. We can discuss this if you like. What kind of analysis was proposed, for what proposed goal? A project plan as it were?...not just "analysis". Why was it considered useful to involve me? I think my answer was right on. In fact I think it's still the correct answer. Thanks for posting it. If there is some alternative that's better than my answer, let's discuss it. I believe, from watching the news video and reading the FBI web site, that all citizens who want to help on this case are being asked to contribute starting with an email address on the FBI web site. I would encourage everyone to do so. (edit) I would note that I am wrong no matter what I do. I am a low-life, I am repellant, I toss feces according to Georger. There is no reason I should be a trusted source for any information, or even theories. 377 has pointed out my bias wrt FBI. etc. I think the stress/conflict, is that Ckret, and TK (and partner) and etc have built this fake idea of a Citizen's Work Force on the Cooper case. That doesn't exist. I know you want there to be a "community" But there isn't one. Why would I create even more deception, when it seems that's de riguer around the Cooper case, even today. I am being absolutely correct in saying "I know nothing. If you have questions, talk to the FBI". (edit) And while I don't work for MSFT, and acknowledge their negatives, their impact on society has been amazing. They won, and my hat is off to them. Sure a little crime along the way, but lawyers need jobs too.

377 mentioned "artitistically lit" airstair photo. We covered the exact number of lights that exist on the air stair back in the thread. I think that was from the 727 schematic from the early article. I too thought there was extra lighting in Sluggo's pic, but I now think it's lit by existing lights. Just good camera work. Maybe a flood or flash, but the yellow lighting I think is all on the 727? One unknown we have: Did Cooper get lights on his stairs? The McCoy description seems to imply no lights (remember him talking about getting his penlight). Who knows.

I liked this modern video because it showed the rig an Airborne Safety (two guys?) is wearing (I guess that's correct title for the position?) (starting at around 0:55). It's an emergency rig, right? Do they have main + reserve on the back in these emergency rigs now, or just a main? Plus it's cool cause it's just "casual day at the office footage" I like the igloo water jug strapped up to the post. And maybe a box of tissues or paper towels strapped next to it. In any case, this is what got me thinking about "well airborne safety wears emergency rig, why loadmaster?" http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=35670049 Maybe it's an age thing. There's no clear description of what era loadmaster the profile is targeting.

377, I think, has made some musings on the likelihood of men of Cooper's era, reading comic books and serving as a loadmaster. The two seem a little incongruous. The other thing about jump experience: I thought most military jumpers would have been static line. So pretty inexperienced with freefall. And while a stick is going out, the airborne safety wears a emergency rig, right? But saying "airborne safety" experience doesn't make sense I guess. But loadmaster does? Why? Loadmasters understand parachutes. So, I would think most paratroopers wouldn't have much experience in doing freefall, if any. We talked about the relatively small number of jumps involved in military training before. I don't know why loadmaster was selected for profile. There are some mentions of Cooper using the phrase "interphone" in, say, the Real McCoy book, but I thought Ckret discounted that. His use of "airstair" and "interphone" was mentioned as part of his "aviation knowledge"..but that could be myth or bogus, and even cribbed off Tina. (can anyone sort how this "airstair" or "interphone" stuff. Did Ckret discount it?) Behaviorally, Cooper doesn't seem like loadmaster to me. I think it is actually a dis to the professionalism of loadmasters? Are there any loadmasters out there? Is it an insult or not to couple the "cluelessness" of Cooper with loadmasters? What are people's theories on why loadmaster was a good choice? I have a hard time understanding Cooper as military. (edit) Would a loadmaster have asked for a knapsack for the money, and then just dealt with it, when he got an open necked money bag?

To correction your misinformation: Ah if you bother to look the thread already existed: http://www.thescienceforum.com/D.B.-Cooper-9518t.php Its a science forum where crackpots and Jo Weber arent allowed. It's too lo-profile for you seeking attention. Its interesting you would be searching for DB Cooper forums at this time? That's funny-predictable. Are you looking to spread your feces on a bigger wall? Hi Georger, Yes, you're correct.

Okay, since we're talking Comic Book, we should at least get the history of who proposed the connection first. It was almost two years ago, by a guy who's dead now. It wasn't when Sluggo noticed it in the foreign news clip he posted here. As far as I can tell, it was "leftcoast" one of the two guys who pushed Mayfield, and were on tv in 2007. I believe leftcoast is dead now. This happened on the websleuths site. I believe it was repeated by another poster after that also? There could easily have been earlier references. Here's leftcoast's post on 4/19/2007. RIP leftcoast. from http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44859&page=14 ---------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by Mysticchic Just a thought, but maybe he got his name from a grave marker from the area? -------------------------------------------------------- Hey Mystic, I don't know where he got the alias. Some have suggested from Gary Cooper, and his movie, JOhn Doe I think it is from a 1950's comic book test pilot popular in Canada who was named Dan Cooper. Another thought is there was a Gorden Cooper who was a famous test pilot and astronaut in the early 60's. He never got any credit, as we all know in society, the first to anything, Armstrong, Yeager, etc., get all the credit. Cooper was also a great stick and rudder guy, according to articles. Could be from a grave. left ----------------------------------------------------------------- Albert18 repeated it 4/5/2008 here http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49742&page=24 A poster on another forum found a comic book character link to the name Dan Cooper. http://www.coolfrenchcomics.com/dancooper.htm http://pagesperso-orange.fr/francejohn/dc_page1.htm Is this where the hijacker got the name "Dan Cooper"? I have never heard of this comic book character before. What is interesting is this comic book series appears to have it's following in Canada and Europe. And look at the first line of this web page. http://www.marville.org/articles/dacooper.html ---------------------------------------------- leftcoast's death was announced here by rightcoast http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49742&page=16 12-03-2007, 10:48 AM rightcoast as most assuredly nearly none of you knew, leftcoast has been very ill and in pain for a lot of years with a rare form of muscular dystrophy. it is my sad duty to inform you that he has passed away due to complications. i am sorry for the blunt nature of this post, but i know of no other way to inform cyber friends. his name was Dan Dvorak. he was a good man and a very good friend. he will miss his time with you all here. he mentioned two people in particular, one being the nice woman that put us in touch with inside edition and especially Old Dominion. if either of you wish to email me, i would welcome it at dbcoopercatcher@gmail.com. as for this thread, i will try to be here occasionally to contribute, but i will be a piss poor second to Dan's first.

If people search with google, they can find the forum georger is trying to get a thread started on. It reminded me of something. People want to be able to add value..i.e. assume that if you just look at the data with a good mind, it should be obvious. This is because the FBI theories previously reported for 37 years seemed inconsistent with any sort of rationality. So it's easy for Tom, Dick and Harry to think "oh I can think of the answer". I got a PM from some guy asking about the weather, saying he wanted to do an analysis. etc. However, it's obvious we don't have all the data the FBI does. So the idea of "somehow one's mind is better than others" is patently silly. All that matters is the information the FBI has, that they've not released. And the FBI investigation. The actual "thinking" or "minds" part is the easy part. Anyone can do that. In terms of moving forward, you can see that Larry is constantly wrestling with how to get info from the public, without releasing more info about the FBI investigation. So the trick for the FBI will be: solving it for free. Obviously the strategy is still to generate new tips. i.e. science can't "solve" it, so it's just about creating a show so if there's a tip out there, someone will call it in. The tantalizing thing for me is not really Cooper, since I have no tips. Or the jump, because we've analyzed it to death, but really the FBI investigation and how it could have gone so badly right away in '71-'72 with the search zone identification and then stayed bad with all the Himmelsbach stuff in the papers. But we won't get any information on that. I find it amazing that people still think it's a question of "science-ing" out stuff. If we were going to science out something, we need more data about the FBI investigation. Without that, we're pretty much done, we've touched on all theories and possibilites. Now could "data" eliminate any theories we've discussed? I don't know. That would be interesting if so. I'm leaning towards "no data can eliminate any theories we've discussed" However, clearly data can eliminate theories the FBI has promoted.

I made an offhand reference to the National Geographic documentary leaving out the Cooper sex stuff. Apparently the FBI has taken the sex theory seriously, as all "hot babe" photos are being studying intently. I looked closely at the photo on the FBI web page here. http://www.fbi.gov/headlines/d-b-cooper/coopersci500.jpg At first glance, one's eye is drawn to the peeling mylar or other sun screen material on the window. Why is the conference window blocked from the outside? What happens in that conference room? Then I saw the picture on the table. I have cropped, zoomed and circled the relevant photo on the table so you can examine the black haired "hot babe" that has long been rumored. You can compare it to the original at the fbi site using the url above. Two theories 1) Did Ckret leave this as an "easter egg" for us? Is there a secret message in the photo? Note that it appears to be a photo of a photo, or a photocopy of a photo. Her legs don't appear to be crossed, but held closely together. 2) Is this the woman we have been discussing? Is there a tie-in? Note the two men in the photo are feigning indifference to the circled photo. (edit) I believe the picture is at the Oregonian.

Hi georger, it's interesting how I can make you post. I have no theories on that.

FBI apparently thinks indeterminism around Cooper's landing zone is related to flight path data. That would be interesting if true. from the FBI site "Using technology unavailable in 1971, such as satellite maps and GPS, Kaye hopes to pinpoint exactly where Ingram found the money nearly three decades ago. He plans to retrace the plane’s flight plan to determine more exact coordinates for Cooper’s landing zone."

From the FBI site Kay said "he wants to figure out if pollen found on a tie Cooper left behind on the plane came from a specific region of the country." Independent of "where", it's interesting that pollen would be on a tie worn in November. (edit) Tie's aren't washed often. It might mean nothing. How long do detectable pollen remnants stay on polyester ties? Apparently 37 years. (or more?) So pollen could have been embedded at any point. From manufacture to 11/24/71 use. Interesting though. Why is it not considered a contaminant?

There is a myth that someone in the midwest staged a paintball rally where 1000 paintballers painted his house in 30 minutes, only using paintballs. The myth did not say whether it was a trailer, stucco, wood siding, or T-111. I initially suspected H&K MP5 replicas, but research quickly showed that it would be low probability to have that many MP5 marker guns assembled in any one area at one time. http://www.extremesportsandhobbies.com/mp5.html I've tracked down the source of this myth to the 2003 Oklahoma D-Day paintball event, attended by approx. 4000 players. Evidently the General of the Allied Forces, who lead the charge on Omaha Beach (from the landing craft) was concerned that the force of 1000 simultaneous paintball hits might knock him over and injure him. To prevent injury the General used carpet behind his back, in case of such a blow back. I've attached a picture of the initial charge off the landing craft. Hopefully, I've put this myth to bed, with this evidence.

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/march09/dbcooper031709.html I don't know why they posted it on 3/17/09.

Intriguing that the profile targets loadmaster. There must be evidence or theories around that. http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/crime/2009/03/17/was_db_cooper_a_french-canadia.html March 17, 2009 12:05 PM Was D.B. Cooper a French-Canadian comic book hero? Posted by John de Leon Special Agent Larry Carr of the Seattle office of the FBI has developed some interesting theories in the case of the iconic skyjacker known as D.B. Cooper. Carr, who took over the case two years ago, believes it's possible Cooper took his name from the French-Canadian comic book character Dan Cooper. Carr says that's important because the books were never translated into English, and could mean he spent time overseas. This fits with Carr's theory that Cooper had been in the Air Force. Carr has developed this profile of Cooper: -- He served in the Air Force and at some point was stationed in Europe, where he may have become interested in the Dan Cooper comic books. -- He worked as a cargo loader on planes, giving him knowledge and experience in the aviation industry, which was in its infancy in 1971. -- Because his job required him to throw cargo out of planes, Cooper would have worn an emergency parachute in case he fell out. This would have provided him with working knowledge of parachutes but not necessarily the functional knowledge to survive the jump he made. -- He may have come from the East Coast, but taken an aviation job in Seattle when he got out of the military. It's possible he lost his job during an economic downturn in the aviation industry in 1970-71. If he was a loner with little or no family, "nobody would have missed him" after he was gone. To read more about the latest developments in the case, and to view a video, click http://www.fbi.gov/page2/march09/dbcooper031709.html

I've been tapped by the Obama team for keeping track of stimulus payments around Cooper media. Been told that more jumpers need to be hired. Luckily negotiated the bonus package beforehand. Asobi Productions is filming a Cooper documentary. This is a different production company than the one I named that's doing the one for National Geographic. Maybe they're doing some work for them, or it's a different film. Details of their filming on 2/21/09 and 2/28/09 are here: (at Mojave Airport for 727-on-ground filming..don't know if/where the jump was filmed. Anyone?) Some pics at the link. I attached the pic of supposedly a "professional" skydiver. "We filmed a professional skydiver dressed like Cooper simulating the jump. No one knows if he made it or not so we assume he either died jumping, or landed safely and got away. Our skydiver landed just fine. Here he's fitted with a fake 70's era parachute, while on his back he's got a modern one that actually works." http://blog.asobiproductions.com/2009/03/02/db-cooper-shoot-22109.aspx http://blog.asobiproductions.com/2009/03/09/db-cooper-shoot-22809.aspx In the attached photo, showing "Cooper" with modern back rig and old front reserve. Notice how wrong the age/glasses/hair are, although jumping with raincoat? Interesting he's not worried about the collar flaps? Did he really jump? Note the raincoat is thigh length. Probably not a jet jump? What's up with the young guy? No old jumpers out there with balls? What's intriguing is the guy on the Left. Wearing a little belt pack that says "FBI" and "FENE" Odd. Be funny if there was an FBI guy actually on the set during filming. Probably not. They show a pic of their aftstair jump depiction. It's the classic "briefcase in hand" shot, amidst fog. The stairs stay down nicely when the plane's on the ground. They may be leaving out all the sex-related stuff re Cooper. Don't know. (edit) Since Asobi Productions apparently was involved in authoring Phil Day's website, and Phil Day is doing the National Geographic documentary, it's probably part of the same deal. Note the Barb Dayton fan club was filmed a while back, so they may be one of the three Cooper PR clubs that are mentioned/included. (edit) Throwing some change to Dave Vescio to play Ckret (or whatever other SA-of-the-year it is). Dave has signed on. http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendId=179562149 "I booked a "supporting role" in a National Geographic TV show called "The Legend of D.B. Cooper"; it was directed by Philip Day .... And I got to play the main FBI Agent who is trying to capture the airplane hijacker known as D.B. Cooper." ..posted from The Griddle Cafe.

This is going to sound strange, but there's 4 folks that I actually find kind of inspiring. 1) 377: Like I say, he's the rock. I've never met him. Probably will some day. 2) Jo: Sure's she's whacked out about this Cooper thing. But so what. Yeah she's made people's lives difficult, but those people should have been able to deal with it. I'm inspired by her ability to pick herself up. She's unique. That's inspiration enough. 3) Orange1: It's easy to forget how US centric and male centric so much crap is. Orange1 just rides thru all that, nonplussed. Shows why females with brains are going to dominate. 4) Cooper: He had balls, and went for it. Who cares if he died or not. What depresses me: Georger: Its like seeing the ghost of christmas future, at least in my imagination. I have no idea what georger is really like, but don't want to be it. Jerry: Jerry is fighting battles that basically date to the same period Jo is. At least Jo was married to a guy who died and screwed her over. Jerry's got no excuse. Ckret: It's fine to be a working Joe. But it's depressing to realize the FBI is what the rumors are. Himmelsbach: Don't see anything to respect. Tom Kaye: He had his choice to go with the dark side, or not, and he picked the dark side. Sluggo: He's just a little too clingy. He's probably an okay guy though. Myself: I realize that here, I'm just as bad, and I can do better. So I start today.

I was thinking it's kind of two-faced of me, to attack the behavior of others, when people ask me questions like "who am I" and I don't respond. Like Orange1 said about herself, I'm just another boring person. There's nothing there. But if anyone wants to know, I'll tell them. Sluggo and 377 already know my name. It's nothing. Personally I'm surprised at you people who don't value personal privacy. But I guess I don't want to let other people's views of "how things are" dominate here. Because people here are wrong about the world and the people in it.

Hi Georger. I was speaking for myself. Were you saying that I am manic bullshit (and everyone else) and I can't recognize it? Or were you saying something about yourself. Open up Georger. Why do you post here? I'm trying to guess why Ckret posted. I enjoy the social aspects. You seem like a bombastic old man. Why post?

I'm posting again, because there's a fine question here we've tripped over a number of times, but never answered in detail. A lot of times, like with Safe, we say the FBI had an army of people, 1000 suspects (or whatever) and they did a good effort. And they used experts and they concluded Cooper died. Now if that is true, than Safe is right about "armchair logic". It's pointless, since nothing we can think hadn't already been thought about. But, if we actually know something new, then it's likely the FBI assessment is wrong. Do we know anything that's new? I don't think so. So all we can really do is second-guess the FBI data. Here's my point: I think Ckret's frustration was not from the forum, the people, or the web, or his busyness. I think the frustration was from having to deal with the conflict that the FBI files said one thing, but when you looked at the data, today, it said another thing. Otherwise, why would you be stressed? You'd just dump all the Cooper data out to a bunch of web forums, say "does this remind you of anyone" ...and just ignore people's questions..i.e. once you dump all the data, there's no one out there you're interested in hearing opinions from. Because your experts were better. So that's the conflict. The FBI files are weak. The investigation was weak, and the conclusion is wrong. There's no other reason for Ckret to be so frustrated. It only takes a couple posts to dump a good investigation's information. Or have an FBI guy create a web page. I think what Ckret wanted was to be able to close the case. (even just to say it was obvious where the dead body would have been). And it became obvious he couldn't. His plan that he outlined, focused on finding a dead guy. Ckret posted: "By the way, the main focus of the investigation to date has been on the living, that has not worked. Over 1000 people have been looked at and not one was risen to the surface. " In another post Ckret said: "It got there after 74 and was protected to some extent until discovery in 80. There is nothing that would point to it being placed there by someone (although it can be considered as an alternative once the most probable has been explored). Armed with new facts we can adjust, correct or pull into sharper focus what was once thought to be fact. The money is the area of the case that has been least investigated and should be the focus because it may lead to bones, which lead to DNA, which lead to race and ethnic profile, which leads to familial confirmation and resolution (wouldn't that be something). " You can see Ckret had bones on the brain. Ckret pointed the finger at us being the problem. And we believed him. That's what was wrong. We were never the problem. (edit) Jerry theorized about great agents. A great agent would have been able to handle this situation. The most optimal thing for us, would be to get the case handed to a new agent.

I did a search. And Ckret didn't strictly say random order, but he did say different bill counts in each bundle. And he did say the order was never documented. So I guess I had a false memory. The answer is "we don't know", I guess. ckret had posted: "It is my understanding the money was wraped in rubber bands, no paper bands. the money was put together in different bill counts so it looked as if it was put together in a hurry." ckret also posted: "....but the order per serial number was never documented. There is no indication the money was re-bundled. " While searching, I found this funny post from Ckret when I first started posting. It's interesting that he actually thought that this forum was about something useful at the time (that I was disrupting). Why do people think Ckret was posting here in the first place? Did he get what he was looking for? Ckret said: "You could be a valued member here, but your asking questions and making statements that have been discussed. Go back and read the posts, if something new pops up bring it, it would be great to have a fresh look. But your not bringing anything new and it takes energy and time no one has to bring you up to speed. " but then later Ckret also said: "I don’t want to speak for Geoff, but he was lurking here at my advise for research. So much good work was/is being done that I did not want him to miss it. " So Ckret must have found something new here. Perplexing. What did Ckret find that was new? Maybe just stuff that was already in the files? Or not??? In looking back thru the thread, its also curious how there's a constant refrain that implies communication is inferior on the web. For this Cooper thing, is it? Was there superior communication happening on the Cooper thing before the web? Interesting question. Larry did get frustrated with stuff here. He must have had a goal. What was the goal? To publish Cooper data to bring in tips? Was that the sole goal? To somehow dredge up expert knowledge he wasn't privy to otherwise? Didn't Larry post here for social reasons, just like everyone? Larry said at one time: "I have no idea (Larry mumbling to himself) how I allowed myself to get sucked onto this but I am pulling myself out. If you have a question I will answer it the best I can. I will leave the rest to the genius of this forum, I am simply out of energy. "