snowmman

I was thinking people might not be familiar with pump impeller "blades". I've replaced the impeller on a well pump, so there's some hands-on experience :) In any case, dredge pump impellers don't look too different than the impellers you see on a water pump. They do analyze the optimal shape/number though. There's actually a book devoted just to this: http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5n87n7q84476778/ first page attached, showing outline of impeller blades. I've also attached another exploded view of an example dredge pump. What's unclear is what kind of cutterhead, if any, they might have been using in 1974. That would also potential create issues with whether the money would all be destroyed. But I'm thinking the first-order question is the pump sphere passage limit, and the impeller design. If the "Oregon" was used, it could be used for an experiment, since it is still in use. In fact, I think they are using it on the Columbia right now? Not sure. (edit) for completeness, have to double-check whether there's any possibility a clamshell dredge was used additionally, maybe in spot areas, around Tena Bar in 1974 (they have used them on the Columbia.....it would remove all questions of money destruction)

no the dredges would be too big to transport. They wouldn't have been used on Lake Merwin. (edit) actually, Port of Portland does lend out their dredges. They can travel pretty far, but I assume that it's all by water channels. (can search web on this but doesn't really matter) They were used further N on the Columbia. The pictures we have show them in use farther downstream from Tena Bar. I threw out that theory of being "stuck" on the dredge somehow a long time ago. But it doesn't make sense. I think we're stretching looking for complicated things when the simple answers line up. What's interesting is seeing where people are willing to say "okay that was wrong" and where people are dogmatic "no that has to be correct" Like it's okay to move the DZ because the jump point was miscalculated (even though experts were involved). Or it's okay to move the flight path even though a lot of technology and experts were involved.....but a question about dredge pumps? rock solid! don't question it, you idiot. Experts (one) were asked. I'm not surprised, it's just a reflection of the inconsistency in the investigative process used. It's also amazing to watch how people think. Jerry glibly talks about how he only deals with facts, and "common sense" and then says that Cooper was a "common criminal" whatever that means. Using the word "common" is just an emotional appeal anyhow. There's no data in it. I love it. DBC will never be discovered. Here's to DBC! We need more Coopers.

jerry said "Cooper was a common criminal" The current FBI profile doesn't mention anything like this?

Which new dredge are you talking about Jerry? What you are describing is a hopper dredge. That wasn't used in 1971 at Tena Bar, right? I'm not sure what you're saying here. The "Oregon" is a 30" pipeline dredge, and I'm suggesting it was used in 1971. It seems to have been built maybe early '60s? Not sure.

This post is an insult. Apply where needed. (edit) Georger. The narcissism post was in response to you accusing me of narcissism. You said, after I posted about the tie pollen possibly being a contaminant: "It may be a contaminant. People arent nearly as stupid as you need them to be to fulfill your narcissism." I was agreeing with your accusation, by saying I actually liked Alec Baldwin in that scene, which is pretty narcissitic. After I wrote the post, I realized it also reminded me of how people like to quote their backgrounds/credentials here. So I mentioned that. I didn't think I was being too oblique. Apologies if so.

1) Money was found on Tena Bar. Assuming that no human plant story makes sense, then it had to move thru the Columbia somehow. 2) No water path other than the Columbia makes sense in terms of flight path. 3) If Cooper landed in the water, the whole money-find set of data, makes it more likely to have been thrown up by dredging, than random flotation, (whether in 1971, 1974 or any other time) I say more likely because: a) we know the money had to arrive there after 1974. b) a pipeline dredge outputted directly to shore within 100' of the money find, in 1974. c) we know the sand was moved around by heavy machinery afterwards. d) pieces of money were found besides the 3 bundles (small pieces) e) The condition of the money suggests it had been at Tena Bar for a while (the decomposition pattern) f) buried rubber bands in sand and cold/damp may have survived that long. g) Nothing else was found, like a bag. h) Dredge acts like a funnel, sucking deposits from a large area and depositing to a small area. Increases the probability for Tena Bar (addresses the question: why Tena Bar? Because of the probability multiplier effect caused by the dredge) i) We know sand moves a lot on Tena Bar. So the money could have been buried deeply for many years (more than 3") and exposed in 1980. j) Need to test the theory that 30" pipeline dredge was used, and could pass three bundles decomposed together in a sand/water slurry. Alternatively a human plant or drift scenario has to be created that's more probable. The drift scenario probably includes Cooper in the Columbia also. Human plant stories seem implausible.

from www.shipspotting.com Dredge Oregon. Columbia River at Vancouver, Washington. 17 Feb. 2007. 30" pipeline dredge owned by the Port of Portland. attached. Funny, there are guys who watch ships, like 377 watches planes. (but I guess 377 watches boats too, fishing at least) They evidently just replaced their 41 year old dredge tender "Don' and got a new one for $2.4 million. 1500 hp tender. (I guess it moves the pipeline and the dredge) http://www.portofportland.com/pdxaminer/Pdxaminer_curr.aspx?contentFile=Issue_2005_02/Content/page4.ascx

I hadn't gotten this from his book, but in this news article, it says he got a full list of dredging projects from the Corps of Engineers, and that only the 1974 one was interesting. HIS SEARCH FOR DB COOPER GIVES HIM A SECOND CAREER $2.95 - Miami Herald - NewsBank - May 11, 1985 He obtained a list of dredging projects from the corps and said only one of them, in 1974, could have deposited debris on the proper spot on the river bank. ... Over breakfast coffee, Tosaw showed off the list of dredging projects the corps had provided him and said only one of the projects, in 1974, ... p.s. Georger suggested "narcissim" at one point. I will admit that I loved this scene in Malice. He was such an ass! (Alec Baldwin as Dr. Jed Hill). I believe he ad-libbed, and the line at the end was supposed to be "Let me tell you something - Duane is God". (sometimes when I read a georger post, I'm picturing Dr. Jed Hill!) "I have an M.D. from Harvard. I am board certified in cardio- thoratic medicine and trauma surgery. I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you: When someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from post-operative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now, go ahead and read your Bible, and you go to your church...and, with any luck, you might win the annual raffle. But if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17, and he doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God." vid at http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2007/malice-god-p1.php

georger asked: "How would a bag of money have been bottom-fixed at all, except by a snag?" could have stayed attached to Cooper. Cooper could have deployed the chute and drowned. If he landed at night in the storm in the Columbia, deployed, he probably would have drowned without anyone noticing. (edit) If a 30" dredge was used, the dredge story is very compelling. Everything suggests it was 30". If we're doing science, it would be a lot easier to talk to the dredge guys at Port of Portland, than doing floating experiments of unclear value. I was amazed at how adamant Ckret was about his dredge testimony. Would have been simple to go check again. He went and checked with Ingram again. Why not with the dredge guys? I can't understand how Jerry says Ckret was such a hotshot agent. Sure, it's free-time work. But there are psycho guys, single, that would spend more time on it. Not rational, but would get more done. That's why we need a new agent. We need a sick motherfucker, not a normal guy.

georger mused: "isnt it just as likely the money came to Tina Bar in late '71 or early '72 and was silted in place approx 100ft up from the shoreline, and then covered over by the dredging silt, then finally exposed by erosion between late '74 and early '80?" We have pictures of Tena Bar from '71 on. I thought the distances are estimatable and that 100' up like you say wouldn't fit....you start hitting other stuff. I guess you could draw it out on some pictures. But I think there are some issues with ideas like it moving way out, and then way back down. try working on a photo?

I lost my post and some good references, but everything seems to say that the dredge "Oregon" is a 30" hydraulic pipeline dredge owned by the Port of Portland. There's a long history of 30" pipeline dredges owned by Portland. A 30" pipeline dredge was built for the Corps of Engineers in 1912. The last time Portland had a big channel deepening was in 1912. (this was from a 1912 Corps. of Engineers report in Google Books) However here's another called "Clackamas" that was constructed by Port of Portland, reported in a 1927 book, that was a 30" diameter discharge pipeline dredge. And from the US Congress, House. Commitee on Appropriations in 1966, they were talking about another new 30-inch pipeline dredge (5000 horsepower) In 1959, this book talks about operating four 30-inch pipeline dredges simultaneously. In any case, 30-inch seems to be kind of standard for the Portland guys. Ah here's a reference in a 1965 book that says the Port's "new 30-inch pipeline dredge OREGON" SO: That means in 1965 the dredge OREGON was considered new. I'm betting Tosaw is right that it was 30". I'll go further and suggest it was the OREGON. They've recently been working on deepening. There was a new guy Cook who was put in charge in 1999. They have four other hopper dredges, but we know it was a pipeline dredge at Tena Bar. Also we have to remember it's 1974, not now. Tosaw reported a 30" pipeline dredge, supposedly talked to someone. Attached photo of the dredge Oregon

jumping past the Cooper question, since it's unanswerable, another first order determinant would be whether he landed in the Columbia. Regardless of training, death would be likely. We also have to rexamine our thinking on the money. We stopped talking about bag protection theories. It's likely the Clay Report is correct, and the money arrived post '74. Did the money move around with the bag? Seems a stretch. I still really like the dredging theory. Cooper in the columbia, dredge pump spit out the money. Why? Because Ckret's information about what can pass thru these dredges is just wrong. (I've provided info and pictures before, but here's some more) Here's a quick cite: (remember a molded-together stack of 3 bundles is smaller than a 6 inch sphere. A bill is only 2.61 inches wide and 6.14 long, and they can flop a bit. The size it can pass depends on the pump. This reference just mentions passing 4 to 6 inch sphere. "sphere passage" is the metric they use when describing a pump and what jams it. (because that determines the cutter head you can use) http://www.dredgingspecialists.com/AquaticRemediation.htm ) Problems With Hydraulic Dredges. a) Continual plugging of the dredge pump with oversize debris. A dredge pump will pass a 4 to 6 inch spherical object. However, a 10-inch long stick can jam in the eye of the impeller. A few sticks, boards, metal objects, leaves, cattails, and you have a plugged pump. The only way to remove a plug from a dredge pump is by hand. This puts people in contact with muddy, sloppy, contaminated material. Contaminated material is slopped all over the deck of the dredge, back in the water and in boats, as it is transferred to shore. In this book "Slurry Systems" by Baha E. Abulnaga http://books.google.com/books?id=yuZNmg2QWzEC&pg=PT447&lpg=PT447&dq=pipeline+dredge+impeller+sphere&source=bl&ots=iqK5KJ_vXx&sig=42lEWwO5GWBlb4R7q88TVpURxP0&hl=en&ei=jQzLSeHSE4KOsQPx9Z2hCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result There is a table of "Recommended Maximum Size of Spheres for the Design of the Width of Vanes of Slurry and Dredge Pumps" (edit) He's talking about the diameter of a sphere that will pass thru the impeller in the pump. Note that wet money bundles could also be protected by sand as they pass thru the pump. First order is understanding the size of the pump and it's sphere passage. The Sphere diameter in the table goes from 3" to 21" for dredge pumps. It depends on the discharge diameter. The point being: without knowing the exact pipeline dredge used, we have to allow for the possibility that the dredge could have passed the object. The small amount of data Ckret provided (some testimony) is insufficient. Ckret's testimony implied that the presence of "blades" in the impeller was obvious enough that the money would be shredded. That assumption is wrong. Since dredging seems to fit the rest of the data, for having moved the money, then we really need to find out what dredge was used, and revisit the idea that the dredge had to destroy the money. It may have destroyed a lot of it. All we need is 3 moldy bundles stuck together. It's basic. If TK and the Citizen's Work Force wanted to do a good experiment, it would be passing bundles thru the same pipeline dredge that was used in 1974. A high school science fair project would think of that. p.s. I'm really curious what would drag Himmelsbach out to a "conference". His book is out of print. Used copies are relatively expensive. He's not pitching his book. Does he have anything useful to add? What kind of people want to listen to him? Who was at the conference?

I was reading the history page of the Portland FBI. Bunch of interesting cases. They moved to a new building in 1971. You can see their workload in 1971 here: http://portland.fbi.gov/history.htm "In 1971, the Portland office moved to its current location in the Crown Plaza Office Building at SW 1st and Clay. At this time, the Division handled an average annual workload of 1,446 criminal cases, 832 security cases, and 84 applicant/other cases. The Division had grown to 60 agents and 36 support employees. " This was funny since we're always talking about CB stuff and signalling: (1974 bombings/$1 million ransom deal) "Despite the bomber’s use of a complicated communications system in his demands—including citizen’s band (CB) radios, morse code, and duck calls—the FBI tracked him down. "

Hi Jerry, So tell us more about the conference? Sounds like fun. Also: what kind of expertise are you thinking is required in the DBC case? (edit) I just had a random thought. I posted what I thought was the historical precedent for the comic book angle and where/who posted it first. Since then, I've found a canadian comic book nut with a blog who had a blog entry that talked about how he always had a whacky theory along those lines (since he knew about the comic long ago) Now I think the comic book angle is way out there. But it's on the FBI page. In terms of expertise, and the experts you envision: would they have come up with the comic book idea which the FBI seems to love? That's the problem with stuff where you don't know the answer. You don't know who can contribute something useful. Especially when no one is getting paid. The best measuring stick is "anyone who feels like it". But I guess everyone has their own point of view. I'm interested in yours. (edit) here's another thing to think about, Jerry. Does Wikipedia work or not work? Why or why not? If you believe Wikipedia works, it's a very complicated set of reasons why. And it's not about controlling access, to only branded "experts".

I wasn't going to respond, but maybe some jumpers can talk about their mental states and add something interesting. Georger's long post musing on Cooper's mental state sounded okay on first read, but then I thought, no it doesn't feel quite right. some thoughts; "In either event physics takes over and applies to Cooper from that point on." I think the jumpers would disagree with that. It wouldn't be an interesting sport if you just resign yourself to uncontrollable forces once you step outside. If it was just physics once Cooper stepped outside, it would be easier. But vagaries about the rig, and Cooper's abilities, whether trained or untrained, are probably stronger-order determinants of success here, than the physics. That's why analyzing wind etc, doesn't really matter. It's second order. Even the night is second order. Because an untrained person can overcome all those difficulties. McNally proved it, for one. It would be easier to guess at something like "put a shotgun in your mouth, pull the trigger, do you live or die?" There the physics is more of a sure thing. georger said: "As long as Cooper rode the plane his stream of options remained wide." Actually, if Cooper had any brains, he would realize there were no options as long as he rode the plane. Certain capture. Jumping was all about options. Jumping meant had more control of the situation, as long as the chute was okay. I'm thinking of wanting to jump off a moving train. You know the train is accelerating, so it only gets worse the more you delay. So as long as you're confident that the future is guaranteed worse than the present, you go with the present, since it's the best option. And you jump off the train. georger said: "And he jumps, like a robot acting" Here's something the jumpers can chime in on. I suspect for these time-dependent high-risk sports, the goal at the high end is almost "like a robot acting"...i.e. you see something, you do something. No emotion. Just absorbing the situation, and reacting as you've previously thought thru (trained etc.) The emotion clutters the brain, so isn't part of the training/experience, to be utterly unemotional even when facing a suddenly increased risk of death?. I think it's more like "I do this, I die, I do this, I probably don't die, I do this, seems like the best choice". Pretty robotic.

Jo: I wouldn't worry about what got done or didn't get done. Larry is probably a nice guy, but if you step back and look at all the information and data (like the simple thing of the quality of the flight path map, and where the data for that came from!), then you just have to accept that the FBI investigation had a lot of holes. And nothing is really being done nowadays. One can stamp their feet as much as possible about that, but it's just reality. I've said it before, that if we see an apparent error rate in one aspect of the FBI investigation, it's reasonable to assume a similar error rate exists in all areas of the investigation. It would be unrealistic to assume that the FBI investigation was somehow perfect in all areas. I've been thinking that part of what drove you crazy, was that there was this pretense of an investigation, and you accepted it. If you understand there really isn't, you should be able to sleep better. This goes to my acceptance, now, that we were never the problem in this forum. We just thought something was going on with Ckret, that really wasn't. I think part of the pretense of investigation is driven by people outside the FBI (H., Thomas, news media etc.) and that the FBI doesn't deny it, hoping that somehow a tip will trickle in.

I don't know about courage. I think people just do things that are very strangely high risk sometimes. Sometimes they die and sometimes they don't. This guy was a German doctor. from NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/17/us/nevada-stunt-victim-said-to-be-an-inventor.html Nevada Stunt Victim Said to Be an Inventor UPI Published: October 17, 1986 A man who mysteriously jumped out of a plane to his death on Oct. 6 before videotape cameras was a West German inventor trying to get publicity for a parachute he had invented, the police said today. The 36-year-old inventor, Hajo Harms, was killed when the homemade parachute he had hidden under his white dinner jacket failed to open after he stepped from the chartered Cessna 210 when it was flying at 10,000 feet. ''He felt he could get more publicity in this country, and Las Vegas has a lot of notoriety,'' Lieut. Paul Conner of the Las Vegas police said. ''He was right. He got a lot of publicity.'' Searchers found Mr. Harms's body two days later tangled in the lines of the parachute four miles south of Railroad Pass Casino, a small gaming resort between Las Vegas and Boulder City. But the authorities had remained mystified about the incident, which was recorded by a a notary and two video camera operators hired by Mr. Harms to record his jump. Apparently was a German doctor. The pilot tried to grab him as he went out the door.

It was bigger than 28' if it was flat circular. they mentioned a diameter. What I can't understand is how he attached lines to the nylon. He must have sewn it. He went to aeronautical school. So he wasn't a stupid idiot. I mean, Ckret had his ADD engineer theory. This guy had the combination of being able to get into aeronautical school, assemble a canopy that would survive a jet exit (unclear exit speed, probably pretty slow?). I think the robbery was besides the point. Sounds like he just really wanted to skydive. A dreamer. (edit) I wonder how he packed the homemade canopy. He couldn't have just thrown the canopy out the door and gone with it? (edit) reading again, it sounds like he had a delayed pull: witness said: "and saw something fall from the plane. Finally the parachute opened"

It make take a while, but I always try to make sure we get the history right. This is from back in 2000, we discussed this already. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/body-of-philippine-skywayman-discovered-716331.html That guy who hijacked in the phillipines, and jumped out with a homemade parachute? We always make it sound like he had no chance in hell. I just found an article with more detail. Apparently his chute did deploy, even though homemade. That's how people on the ground spotted him. Apparently the problem was he detached from the chute after a little while. So this should be filed under harness or other rig failure, not a no-pull or no-deploy. They say he floated for five minutes, which is quite a while, from a 6000 ft jump altitude. They say the chute was 10 to 15 meters in diameter. So, it's interesting that he did a jet jump, with a homemade rig/canopy, and successfully deployed and had 5 minutes of canopy flight. Also, the chute was lavender. "A local leader in the area, Basilio Gesmundo, told DZMM Radio that residents saw a plane circling, and saw something fall from the plane. Finally the parachute opened, and they saw a man floating for about five minutes, but then he separated from the parachute and fell into the forested mountains, Gesmundo said. The man landed so hard that his body was buried in mud, with only his knees and hands protruding, a police officer told the radio station. The lavender chute, about 10 meters to 15 meters (yards) in diameter, could have saved the man if he had had time to fasten it to his body better, the officer said." another article: "On Thursday, Capt. Emmanuel Generoso, one of the pilots, described the parachute as ''homemade, ordinary and (made from) thin nylon.'' In another article, they say he was at aeronautical school Chua said her late husband enrolled their son at the Mindanao Aeronautical and Technical School here, but Reginald appeared to have lost interest in pursuing a college degree." In another article, his younger brother said he dreamed of being a skydiver. (this is interesting with how it aligns with things Hubbard the shrink said) "The man who hijacked a Philippine Airlines jet and died after leaping out of the plane with a homemade parachute had once dreamed of floating through the sky, his brother said Monday. ``He longed to be a skydiver,'' Rannie Chua said of his older brother, Reginald. ``But he had never jumped before.'' Rather than "robbing" the passengers, it was more like they took up a collection when he wanted more money: "Inside the cockpit, Emmanuel Generoso, the most senior of the three pilots on board, took control of the plane after the hijacking was announced. He described the hijacker as "deranged" and crying, saying that his family had left him. The man said he wanted money and Generoso offered him all his cash, but the man wanted more, so the crew took up a collection from the passengers, put the cash in a small plastic bag and gave it to him." What's weird is a crew member convinced him to jump. He wasn't pushed, (that was one report), although the pilot had given instructions to push him if he hesitated "When the door was finally opened, a powerful gust of wind blew from the outside, forcing the man back. But another crew trainer, Francis Cabel, convinced him to go ahead and jump." It was an Airbus 330-301 Registration F-OHZ. I attached a 330 picture, so you guys can assess the probability of tail strike from the rear side door. Apparently he was okay with it. The plane was circling apparently when he jumped. (edit) Updated to add picture of the exact plane: A330-301 F-OHZ* (actually one of several F-OHZ* registered to that airline)

georger asked: "WHOEVER ordained that THIS FORUM OR ANY FORUM WAS 'THEE' DISCUSSION? I mean is there a formal authorised discussion, somewhere? Anywhere? And who proclaimed that? I dont remember anything like that ever being announced by anyone anywhere?" uh. I think no one did. There is no official DBC thread, is there? We just ended up here. The jumpers have more of an excuse than the rest of us. If you're saying there's more info elsewhere, point me at it, and I'll go gather it up. If there's not accessible info elsewhere, then it doesn't matter. I was talking about this idea of "fame" that Shelley brought up wrt Jo. You morphed it into official threads and stuff. I was also saying the Citizen Sleuths haven't provided any info. I think that's true. If you're saying they have, I just haven't seen it, then point me to it. If you're saying I can't see it, then that's the same as providing no info. What am I missing? (edit) "Snowmman sees the whole world as "thee discussion". " You got that right! My main concern is Orange1 reading all this and saying "Geez, the USA was never all it was cracked up to be", and all of a sudden no one in South Africa is buying US Treasury Bonds any more, and then word gets out to China thru the night clerk, and the shit really hits the fan then!

agreed. I only posted the Gossett stuff because of the photos that weren't here before, and how Gossett himself shows that our thinking about WWII thru Vietnam military experience might be narrow-minded. A question: if georger thinks WWII, is georger thinking career military all the way thru Vietnam or out after 1945? I don't think Cooper was career military. What does georger think? Also, how come Gossett isn't considered "too young" for a suspect, at 41 in 1971? (edit) Yes I guess I did say Vietnam military were skewed young, based on looking at the service numbers I could find. I was surprised by Gossett being in Vietnam. But then again he was just 41. I was looking for 45+. Which led me to civilian in Vietnam being more interesting. Should we be looking for 41-year olds for Cooper?

In terms of weird Mormon things. Gossett was in Ogden, Utah at a time. But I guess he was never Mormon before his Catholic priest thing? Not sure. I noticed there were more Gossett photos at Coast to Coast that I hadn't seen before. Attaching. 1) Sgt. Bill Gossett at this desk in Saigon, Vietnam on Sept. 1967. 2) Sgt. Bill Gossett receiving a military award in 1971. 3) Bill Gossett, wife Theresa, and baby Gregg. Taken in May 1968. One thing to think about: People have said "Vietnam was too recent" for a guy of Cooper's age. Gossett was in Saigon, military, in 1967 from the picture (not sure of full years of service in Vietnam) So it's an example, one, that goes against the common myths about service era. (I was talking a lot about civilians in Vietnam, but Gosset provides the Vietnam military example, with reasonable age) It's funny (in terms of comic book!) that Gosset evidently did a tour at the US Embassy in France...not sure what year. from http://www.depoebaybeacon.com/news.asp?dtype=4&catid=6&recid=30 He finished his career as an ROTC instructor and retired from the Army at Ft. Lewis, Wash., in 1973. Interesting he joined military below the age of 18. Something to think about, in terms of the WWII stuff georger mentions. In 1946 at age 16 Gossett joined the Army Air Force, then switched branches in 1954 to become a U.S. Marine. After 10 years in the Corps, he jumped to the U.S. Army, serving one tour in Korea and two tours in Vietnam. (edit) I just noticed that if Gossett was born in 1930, then he was just 41 at the time of the hijack. I thought Ckret said that was too young.

Then you haven't read all the posts Like 377 said maybe a bit old, but WW2 vets were discussed as options. Somewhere... a ways back... I think we could explore the WWII thing more, because I think it's not necessary to jump into "paratrooper" Cooper could have been -WWII but not deployed -deployed somewhere as non-paratrooper -deployed somewhere as paratrooper If paratrooper, it would have been static line like most military up to even vietnam. I'm guessing that all georger is suggesting is that the age suggests some WWII involvement. i.e if Cooper was 45-50, then in 1945 (26 years earlier) he was 19-24, so he would likely have been drafted or more likely enlisted. If he was on the low side of the age, he may have still been in training but never deployed. (WWII ended 9/45)...i.e. if Cooper was 45, then in 44 he would have been 18. May never have been deployed. So there's a lot of possibilities. Minimally I was wondering why georger thought paratrooper. Because that gave him skills or the idea or ??? (it would be reaching back 26 years for skills?) (edit) were there wwII air force loadmasters? Ckret didn't say what era loadmaster he was looking for. Is he looking for a WWII loadmaster?

Jo said "No, the video will not be made available to the public - this is a private individual, but since the FBI did not see it worth their while to personally interview him - some one else did..." Jo: I think you're being unfair here. Carr said the Portland office took his statement. Right? Isn't that about all that could be expected? Were you expecting an interrogation? Was there an interrogation on the tape? or just a statement? I'm not trying to provoke, just that I thought you're being a little unfair with the FBI here.

I can't believe I'm asking a Duane question, especially when Jo is settling down, but searched the thread and couldn't find anything. Jo: Q. Did Duane got to reform school in California when he was a kid?