snowmman

Pete Karculias was an electronic technician/computer repairman for the Q-7 back in 1967-1969. He was stationed at McChord AFB, WA. These are from the McChord SAGE! I've attached his pic of an Op Console, and two radar images from the screen apparently. THE LAST ONE IS GREAT..I think you can see the sectors..and you can see all the radar reflections? Doesn't it look like it reaches past Portland? more pics at the url scroll down on this page to see the pics (the 25th is McChord). Click on the pics to get higher resolution versions. http://www.smecc.org/sage_a_n_fsq-7.htm "These are personal photos of the 25th Air Division HQ SAGE system. They were taken in the spring of 1969 in the evening. I could not photograph the operators on duty as it would have interfered with their duties. Also, some areas were off limits due to security (ECM room, e.g.)." He describes each picture. This was interesting: "11. Its_Crashed.jpg This is for fun. We kept a Polaroid camera in the operator's room to snapshot the console if a computer crahsed. We could reboot and analyze the status later. I am on the right. The computer has just crashed with a memory parity error." (edit) His description of the two SID photos gives detail on the range: "20 SID_Close.jpg Close-up of a Situation Display (SD) console. You can see the outline of Washington, Vancouver Island and British Columbia, Canada to the North. The 25th Air Division covered all this territory. Each Direction Center (DC) overlapped coverage with the adjacent DCs. The DC to the South was located in California." 21. SID_Console.jpg This is longer shot of the SD console."

OK, I must have missed something important here. I dont mean to be "mean" but, where is the "document" you keep refrring to? I must have missed it. I have not seen it. Apologies that I was asleep and missed it - Where is this document. ??? there is none. We don't know how far the F-106's flew. They could have turned back before Cooper even jumped.

Indeed... I guess I don't understand the "Indeed" How did the T-33 vector to flight 305? How did he get close to 305? It was night. Bad weather. (I'm not a pilot)

Directly contradicts the transcripts. I'd go with those over a ghost-written book in which you have already found other errors? But doesn't it sound like the writer talked to the T-33 pilots? In re-reading, it does seem to only talk about altitude though, so it's not really in conflict with the transcripts. Maybe means nothing.

The T-33 is talking to Seattle Center on page 46, while it's near Lake Oswego. (edit) South of Portland. "Seattle Center kept telling the T33 to slow" In my mind, this means Seattle Center could see the T-33 on it's radar (the ARTCC center). This would make sense based on what I was saying about the transcripts and the ident/transponder comments. I think this may give additional info about the radar range capability. We've talked about how Seattle ARTCC likely got feeds from multiple radar sites. (and what those sites might have been). So while the 72 DZ map used data from McChord...I'm still thinking Seattle ARTCC must have had data. Maybe they didn't record it.

on page 46 of the Norjak book, that I just posted, I just noticed something. The T-33 asked for permission to go above 305 for visual contact. "Seattle Center told the military pilots that Flight 305 couldn't move; it had to stay where it was" That seems to go against the theory of 305 flying whereever it wanted to. I know it's weak. Just an interesting comment in the book.

To the best of my knowledge, the USAF T 33 from 1971 didn't have on board radar that could do this. Do they mean ground radar contact was made? 377 interesting. It's from the Norjak book. I scanned and attached the two pages, so you can see for yourself. You know, I don't think Himmelsbach reviewed the Norjak book very much. I think it was mostly ghost written by the co-author. Maybe he had some interviews with Himmelsbach. There are a number of passages where Himmelsbach talks first person about going to talk to possible suspects, that are definitely Himmelsbach "talking". But there are some passages that are cribbed from newspaper accounts. It's odd to find errors like this.

Attached pic from http://www.alexstoll.com/AircraftOfTheMonth/10-00.html "The 200 black boxes of the MA-1 system. The missiles standing on their tails are AIM-4F radar-guided Super Falcons and the missiles in the foreground are AIM-4G IR-guided Super Falcons. Also notice the IRST on the F-106's nose." How many of the components are now stacked up in 377's closet, ready to be deployed on a homebrew UAV?

this was an old post of mine, quoting from the Norjak book. I just realized, that by telling the T-33 to "stand down", they were basically saying they knew by then that Cooper had jumped already? They were near Eugene, OR at the time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Details from the T33. Note that Lake Oswego is south of Portland, so all their info doesn't help, since it was after the jump. Norman Battaglia was going to Portland Air Base for a night training mission, about 5:30 pm. He and pilot Dick Perry went thru their pre-flight, took off around 7:50. Battaglia was Air National Guard officer, in back seat as instructor-pilot. Shortly after they were airborne, they were told to switch radio to Seattle Center, and Seattle told them to trail 305.... They turned toward Lake Oswego, putting them about 3 miles behind 305. They made radar contact and noted 305 was changing course 45 degrees every 30 seconds. He had to throttle back to 135 knots and fly with landing gear and flaps down to maintain contact. Near Eugene they were told to break contact, go to Kingsley Field in Klamath Falls. They say they never saw the 727. At one point they were about 3/4 mile away.

It wasn't till much later that a lot of detail about the F-106's came out. I was searching the news, and it looks like on 11/25/71 they mentioned military planes. We've gone thru which planes were where. this account is a little wrong about three being close, but it might be accurate for how close the F-106's got to 305? (two miles). I wonder if some of this info correlates to a no-pull. (no canopy: nothing to see) Hijacker Given $200,000 Cash, Is Missing When Airliner Lands Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - Nov 25, 1971 PLANE HIJACK. ... Wibom said the three military planes flew about two miles behind the 727. ...

georger said "And in lieu of facts the best anyone can say is exactly what you said: "This radar operator anecdote stuff ..." which proves nothing. There is no proof it happened the way you outline it, just speculation based on speculative anecdotal material Snow finds. The intercept failed? I think your intercept fails. " Heh. Back to the regularly scheduled speculation from Tom and Jerry then. So georger: you can try to explain how radar from McChord was able to provide a flight path to whoever created the '72 DZ map? Theories? Maybe Himmelbach and Jerry have a theory? Diatoms?

This is a good video I hadn't seen before. put on youtube 3/16/2008 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06drBN8nlWg It's 23 minutes long, but if you move the slider up to 16:30, you'll see radar screens and stuff, showing what they did on intercepts. (they kind of enact an intercept) Shows the data block 377 is talking about on a radar screen. There must have been better screens. The ones shown seem to be missing a lot of radar reflections. http://ed-thelen.org/SageIntro.html is probably the best overview I've seen. It's the intro for an IBM manual for the AN/FSQ-7 computer used in SAGE (1959-1965) Has some nice detailed floor plans showing the layout of equipment in a SAGE DC. attached a map of the SAGE radar sites and sectors from 1958 from radomes.org also, although it's unclear how it mapped to what was in place in 1971. (also low resolution)

Revisiting old ground... back in the thread, I had a longer post with some info from two folks who had been SAGE ops (mid-70s or so). http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3227429;search_string=f-106%20intercept;#3227429 an excerpt highlights the probable feeding locations: "SAGE tied in radars from throughout the region, not just from the home station, and could also get feeds from adjoining divisions. In 1972 the 25th Air Division's area of operations included all of Washington, Oregon and portions of northern California, northern Nevada, western Idaho and western Montana. The site which probably did most of the tracking once Flight 305 got south towards the Columbia was Mount Hebo AFS (689th RADS) on the Oregon coast, possibly back-stopped by Keno AFS (827th ADG), although that was well south near Klamath Falls and possibly by the 637th ADG at Othello AFS. Mount Hebo would've provided the best picture of the aircraft and allowed tracking of it with all data transmitted to the SAGE DC. The latter ordered the launch of the two 318th FIS F-106As (edit) Also, the guy pointed out that "other" Air Force radar would have been under Tactical Air Command (TAC) and that multiple sites weren't tied together in TAC. Also SAGE didn't have access to TAC radar. "As to other Air Force radars operating back then, they would have belonged to units of the Tactical Air Command (TAC) and used for their training purposes. SAGE was part of Aerospace Defense Command (ADCOM) and did not have access to TAC radar information. ... TAC had no system like ADCOM's so whatever an individual site saw, if it was up and running at all, that would have been it."

Tsar Bomba said "CIA involvement in that context would be the CIA's ability to access/acquire data from USAF "spy planes". No big deal CIA-wise." No the issue is CIA involvement in domestic law enforcement. It's an issue. Yes it might not be a big deal. Probably since nothing happened. But one never knows till one gets the files. If a CIA overflight of the USA, for domestic law enforcement reasons occured, it'd be interesting to know as a precedent for the use of UAVs going forward in the USA by the FBI/CIA. UAVs would save a lot of money, but citizens might not like it. Half of me is also looking for angles for Bruce to write up. Wouldn't it be incredibly spicy if there was some kind of coverup buried in the Cooper files? I mean its unlikely, since it seems more like incompetence, but imagine if there was a directive from Hoover to Himmelsbach, to spin the "Cooper is Dead" story...and Himmmelsbach is following Hoover's marching orders still? I mean the craziness we're hearing, nonstop, where only the crazy lady seems to be rational...it's just crazy! (edit) minimally, georger has mentioned access to the Clay Report. I don't know if he's bluffing, but it provides another example. The FBI-involved news item with TK, seems to point to suggesting the money was there from day one, but we know the Clay Report rebuts that. Yet the Clay Report is not made available to the public. While on the other hand, there's a claim of info being made available to the public.

You sure know how to end a conversation! Are you and Jo going to sue to have the Easter Bunny banned from schools? And parachutes from all private citizens? You're trying to draw parallels that don't make sense. I talk freedom, and you say it leads to restrictions. That's dumb. You seem to take for granted a lot of work that people have done on your behalf, to keep information freely accessible. (I'm talking generally). I know I appreciate anyone who has ever worked on making information available. Why do conversations end? Lack of fun? How can I be accused of being "no fun". I think I'm the most fun. There are two additional things 1) Cost. Normally they try to dissuade FOIA work, by charging fees. But it's been demonstrated, thru TK, that the FOIA work can be "FREE"..i.e. Tom was granted access and photographed documents. So I should be able to argue for the same access. i.e. library-style access. This could lead to a broad-brush effect on a wide amount of government material, outside of DBC. 2) I believe there are issues involved that could make a request for expedited processing plausible...i.e. questions of public confidence, manipulation etc. We also have information about possible CIA involvement. The 1970 film before the Cooper hijack, and the SR-71 mention. From a boilerplate FOIA request generator: If your request is to the Department of Justice or any of its components such as the FBI and your request concerns a matter of "widespread and exceptional media interest in which there exist possible questions about the government's integrity which affect public confidence," you should explain why your request meets these criteria in a request for expedited processing addressed to the Director of Public Affairs, U.S. Department of Justice, Room 1128, 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20530-0001. At the end of this request you should state: I certify that my statements concerning the need for expedited processing are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I guess the point being, that government employees can't create secret groups of citizens that have additional access rights to government information, that other citizens are denied.

377: was wondering what you thought on the following. I was just thinking that it would be possible to make a strong FOIA request. We have evidence of the following: 1) Documents were provided to a US citizen Tom Kaye, that have not been disclosed to the public. 2) Tom Kaye, a private citizen, made reproductions of some of these documents. We have evidence of one photographic image, highlighting possible CIA involvement (SR-71). There are likely more images, now outside of the control of the FBI, but not available to other members of the public. 3) Tom Kaye has stated he has intended to use this information for private gain. (Publication in scientific publication) I think the courts would frown on this, and that any argument around needing to keep information inside the FBI for investigative reasons would be discounted. In fact the courts would probably question just what the hell was going on?

The best way is using a radio or other electronic device because of EVPs (Electronic Voice Phenomenon) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voice_phenomenon There are about 400 members of the AAEVP who might be able to help: http://www.aaevp.com/ "The American Association of Electronic Voice Phenomena (AA-EVP) is a nonprofit educational association that is dedicated to the support of people who are interested in or who are studying Electronic Voice Phenomena (EVP) and Instrumental TransCommunication (ITC). This website offers examples, techniques and concepts concerning these phenomena. The study of EVP concerns unexpected voices found in recording media or heard as an output of devices capable of processing voice, and is studied as a form of after death communication. ITC is a newer term that includes all of the ways these unexpected voices and images are collected through technology, including EVP. Of the many hypotheses designed to explain these phenomena, the Survival Hypothesis has been found to be most effective in answering the evidence, and therefore, the most useful for designing research protocols." There is a lot of proof on the site, for instance: "In this first example, the Butlers were recording in one of the cell blocks at Alcatraz. You can hear Lisa Butler say, "You can speak on this device." Immediately after that, one or two men can be heard saying, "That's right, we know you." The example appeared in Tom's recorder but not in Lisa's. It has been slightly filtered above 1300 Khz." the sound is here: http://www.aaevp.com/examples/sound/(c)butler2004_thats_right_we_know_you.mp3 If Cooper died, it is very likely that the traumatic event caused his Ghost to be trapped near where he died. It is possible that we could find out more, by walking the flight path with an AM radio tuned to 305 khz. Other interesting frequencies might be the radar frequency used that night, or any of the pilot's voice comm frequencies back then.

I wonder what kind of person would want to wear a "D. Weber Jump School" T-shirt? http://www.zazzle.com/dweb_tshirt-235137390305307613 this may seem like "coincidence" until you see that the creator put a "DB Cooper" search tag on it. It all makes sense when you see someone has a "DB Cooper Jump School" T-shirt. http://www.zazzle.com/db_cooper_jump_school_tshirt-235020381978337193 I find the refrigerator magnet more tasteful http://www.zazzle.com/d_b_cooper_pin_magnet-147472563131554241 My guess, based on a sense from jumpers on this thread, is that I might not be warmly embraced if I showed up at a DZ with either of those T-shirts? Bad idea?

377 said "SAGE must have had a mode that would suppress the data display block that surrounded any echo of a transponder equipped friendly aircraft, otherwise it would be too easy for a Russian bomber to penetrate the ADIZ by flying in close formation trailing an incoming friendly trans Pacific airliner and remaining hidden in the data block area surrounding the airliner echo. " it's a funny coincidence that you mention this. I posted one part of the exchange talking about discerning multiple targets this month (the old guys like to speculate about recent events)...here's the start of it Okay what about this idea? How close to a commercial "heavy" would a USSR R/C have to fly in order to stay in the heavy's radar shadow and avoid his turbulence, so AC&W could squawk the heavy but miss the R/C? Heavies used to fly north of the Aleutians over the Bering towards Anchorage. Why not send in recces with them and back out again using the same methods? xxx xxxxxxx You're on the right track, xxx. At some point during my stay at the King ('75-'76) we had a rather bold intruder follow astern of a regular Flying Tiger civilian bird. He was painting separately, so wasn't even trying to hide. He came right along FT's normal track up the Aleutioan chain towards Anchorage. And, of course, all this time we've got our Rhinos sitting out at the end of the runway, pilot's and controllers' adrenaline pumping, just waiting for clearance to intercept. Just as the strange a/c would have entered our airspace, he turned north as if to say "See? We know right where your silly boundaries are. Neener." The inevitable happened. Once were were in a clear tail chase, ANRAC finally cleared us to scramble. Our guys were really mad at being denied a good intercept-especially when they got to within spitting range. Then this taciturn stranger bumped up to above the mach and literally ran away from our F-4s. Prevailing intel said there was nothing in the Soviet inventory that could fly that fast. We advised ANRAC of what we saw. ANRAC told us what we would instead call it. I guess there's a reason they call it 'war games'

377: I was thinking along those lines, but I was thinking that Cooper revealed that the SAGE intercept was dysfunctional, i.e. that the Russkies could fly in low, in bad weather, and have their way with us. And so that had to be covered up. Remember the intercept failed. Which reminds me, from this month's "Echoes Radomes' Quarterly Publication" (some interesting comments on multiple targets: they were talking about the possibility of Russkie's coming in on the "radar wake" of a commericial plane. Also. maybe the 0.5 nm radar error may had to do with radar pulse width? While it's true that the FPS-93a pulse width of 6us is half a radar mile, every intercept controller I ever met was able to visually discriminate multiple targets much closer than that. Two overlapping targets just don't look the same as one. First any range separation at all makes the combined pulse wider than 6us, which is detectable. Second the pulses we got back from aircraft were not clean square-topped pulses, but more of a gaussian shape, having a peak in the middle, so two pulses as close as 3us give a distinct double-peak in the 'scope paint. Visualize a two-humped camel versus a one-hump. Even though the humps are closer together than the length of the camel, you can still count two humps. Anybody who's ever had a GPA-98 (target and jamming simulator) thrown at them can see the difference instantly, because it's too rectangular. Third if you have two heavy aircraft at the same azimuth (bearing) and range, the paint you get is REALLY strong, which will look wrong to an experienced operator. Furthermore, any lateral separation (azimuth separation, relative to the site) would show up as an abnormally long arc, or a double-peak in the paint brightness, since there's a gaussian shape to the antenna beam as well. I've seen operators get height cuts on targets accurate to better than 1000 ft, even though the paint is 15,000 ft tall on the 'scope, with water/ground reflections and multiple aircraft close together. In fact it was fairly typical during intercept exercises that the combined paint from three or four aircraft would look to the untrained eye like one big blob, but a good operator could keep them all straight. I've also seen operators pick up targets weaker than the MDS (minimum-discernable-signal) of the radar receiver, just by visually integrating the multiple pulses visible in the persistence of the CRT phosphors. RAdio Detection And Ranging really was an art.

Jo said: "After all of these yrs - suddenly after most of the witnesses who claimed to have heard or seen the plane are old, senile or dead - a "panel" of experts can just throw all of the 1971 maps, reports, etc. out the aft stairs of a 727 and conjure up their own flight pattern. I can understand some variance in the flight pattern - but, this is getting crazy - it is Cooper Mania." I will always remember the funniest thing Safe ever said (paraphrasing) "how come the crazy lady is the only one who can come up with a scenario that's plausible?" And he's right!

CooperPonzi, on the advice of outside counsel (377) has acquired the rights to all Cooper related stamps in the USA, European Union, Nigeria, Senegal, Chad, Cote d'Ivoire, Mauritius, Ghana, Rwanda, Cameroon and Burundi. We are excited to expand our business into commemorative, and collectible, US postal stamps, which will be available shortly. I've attached the prototype of the first planned issue. Outside counsel has also advised that we should expand our charitable giving program, in the likelihood we come under federal investigation and are featured on "60 Minutes". So, we will be donating all proceeds of the first stamp issue, to the Wayward and Indigent Jumper Beer Fund.

Thanks. Sounds like Hunter S. Thompson wasn't D. B. Cooper. However, there is one curious matter. After Hunter died, his ashes were stuffed in fireworks shells and fired from a gonzo device. According to the shrink Hubbard, hijackers tended to have astronaut, aeronautical or similar fantasies. Was this blast/jump recreating his most famous life event? Or was it really a matter of destroying all DNA evidence thoroughly? Hunter died as a result of shooting himself. Was this remorse? I've attached a picture of the device, and it looks almost like a rocket. It was paid for by Johnny Depp, was last name starts with "D". In this video, made before his death, Hunter discusses identity issues: Do they want Hunter, or do they want Duke? Was he talking about Duke B. Cooper? And he's wearing a visor cap that says "Las Vegas". Was this where the money was laundered? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5NQRNA6XTg&feature=related The specific make and model of Hunter S. Thompson's cigarette holder/filter was the "TarGard Permanent Cigarette Filter System." http://www.targard.com/shop.php?categoryParentName=Targard&categoryName=Permanent+Cigarette+Filter+System Evidently he enjoyed Dunhill cigarettes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunhill_(cigarette) The fireworks were handled by the Zambelli Fireworks Internationale, a family-owned western Pennsylvania fireworks company that packed Thompson's ashes in 34 shells for the memorial at Hunter's Owl Farm estate in Woody Creek, Colo. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/politics/index.html Thompson's widow, Anita, hand delivered the writer's ashes to Zambelli's Lawrence County plant on Aug. 9, 2005. also: the strongest evidence: A movie was made. Why? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb_-LrTIiRY&feature=related "It was always at night" he says.

geoger said: "OR, maybe we are all missing something BIG TIME. Maybe the fact nothing of Coopoer was ever found literally means nobody had the flight path nailed down?" When did the flight path map appear? Probably not in the first week of searching? I thought most of the searching was done in like a week or two, then they stopped. Until the spring search. Even the first week, the search was concentrated up north. There's all this talk about lots of searching. I think they just flew V23 a couple times and that was it. And searching up north by Lake Merwin.

Attached a photo to show how easily our views are swayed by the composite sketch. I get a totally different feel about Cooper, looking at the Hunter S. Thompson picture. It makes you realize there was a real person behind the composite sketch. Note how similar they are. He was born in 1937. 34 years old in 1971. But I think he looked old for his age. I'm not sure of his age in the comparison, but I attached a second photo from 1970. You could say he looks old for his age, since he's just 33 there. Makes you wonder about Cooper's age (like we've talked about) attached a 3rd pic from about the "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas trip?" summer 1970? from Hunter's bio, he actually applied to be a pilot. Actually ended up down by Jo! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_S._Thompson#Military_career "Thompson did his basic training at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Texas, and later transferred to Scott Air Force Base in Illinois to study electronics. He applied to become a pilot but was rejected by the Air Force's aviation-cadet program. In 1956, he transferred to Eglin Air Force Base, near Pensacola, Florida. "