snowmman

I think I was ripped off here. (Cooper Media is Booming!) Topps just announced this a couple days ago, that they're issuing a trading card set that will include Madoff, Ponzi and D.B. Cooper. http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/26/news/companies/baseball.cards.fortune/ I mean, really. The CooperPonzi fund was on this way early. The full list of 20, in the "World's Biggest Hoaxes, Hoodwinks and Bamboozles" Set is: (look they even ripped off 377's Cold Fusion) * Bernie Madoff * Charles Ponzi * The Runaway Bride * Idaho * The Turk * Enron * Anna Anderson * Ferdinand Waldo Demara * San Serriffe * D.B. Cooper * Spaghetti Trees * Victor Lustig * The War of the Worlds * George Parker * The Bathtub Hoax * The Cottingley Fairies * James Reavis * The Piltdown Man * The Cardiff Giant * Cold Fusion "Topps spokesman Clay Luraschi told Fortune that the set was originally inspired by D.B. Cooper, a mysterious hijacker from the 1970's. He went on to say that Madoff was a late addition to the set, and that the set had already took form prior to the recent economic downturn." http://www.cardboardconnection.com/trading-card-news/topps-unveils-the-full-cast-of-characters-in-the-worlds-biggest-hoaxes-hoodwinks-and-bamboozles.html

Orange1 said: "Snow, I have sympathy for Mr Nuke's point here. He tried in a very thorough way to answer your post, and you just dissed it with a "yeah, whatever". Are you falling into the Jo trap of dismissing whatever doesn't support your theory?" The dismissal was because Nuke was just layering a lot of speculation about what ATC could/would do. Sure he might be right, but just as easily wrong. I had the reaction that it was speculation supporting speculation. The only "possible fact" was that "nothing in the transcript precludes 305 flying wherever it wanted". But even that was debatable because of the comment about other planes following and wanting to be informed if 305 changed altitude. Nuke and Sluggo were trying to say that other language said they could fly wherever they wanted. So my "whatever" was a summary comment that one could just believe whatever one wanted to believe, because there were no facts. And that the long post was speculation about speculation. Yes, I do lump all that in the same category as much of Jo's stuff. That's my opinion. Sorry if it offends people. I will refrain from commenting more on the alternate flight path stuff.

I don't think we've discussed the significance of the photos howardwhite posted in the other thread, enough. listing some thoughts. -the 727 static line test was with aft airstair removed, and ramp inserted. -most jumpers have jumped 727 with airstair removed. -howardwhite's photos show two jumpers, film guy first, backwards, "cooper" about to jump from second step -the side curtains on the stair rails are missing. -Who took the picture of the two on the airstairs? What did they see the airstair do? (or did they rig the airstair to stay down somehow???) -The sled drop test didn't use a jumper. Also what speed was the sled drop test at? The speed of the plane was varying towards Portland, if you look at the ground speed implied by the distance between 1 minute radar tics. Maybe 240 MPH? (have to check). With wind, the actual air speed would be even more? The movie apparently used a 727-100. The airstairs I think wouldn't lock down in a 727-100. So it would be really interesting, for new data, to know what happened after "cooper" jumped. Did the airstair pop back up? In the first picture (I'm assuming it's real, not a composite? snap from a video?)...you can see the airstair. It looks like it's still open to me? Now we don't know how fast the movie 727 was flying. They must have had to slow down to get the stairs open? What were the flaps at? 30? 15? It's interesting. Those two photos are unique, because I don't think we have data on ANYONE else other than Cooper, actually jumping from an airstair.

Did you graduate from grade school? In the US? :) My thoughts were 1) The stuff about questions and respect: I have an image of a trannie sitting at the end of the bar, flirting with some guy hitting on her/him at the witching hour. Maybe it's because of Bruce and his Dayton story. 2) At a strip club, it's all about how you pass the bills. Gotta do it with respect. 3) If you meet a Buddha in the road.....kill him. No I mean, ask him who DB Cooper is. 4) How come the women here are the ones that are cool, calm, collected, and the guys are the emotional ones that sound like we're in high school again?

Mr Nuke "This is also precisely the reason that other contributors have left the board. It is rather frustrating when specific questions are asked, and knowledgably answers are given, but completely disreguarded." Hi Nuke. Sorry to offend. I'm just stating what I think. If that's offensive, well I guess I'm offensive! When you say "the board", I'm assuming you're taking about me, because I was the only one who responded about those particulars. I think the mistake is that you want the Citizen's Task Force..i.e. contact the FBI thru the email address on their web site. There apparently is a mechanism where you can help with the investigation that way. Here, I don't think there is anything such as "the board".

Yeah whatever. You're saying the transcripts don't preclude Rataczak flying wherever he liked...i.e. nothing in them excludes it. They don't support it either. So, the transcripts add nothing in terms of understanding the flight path. So we're back where we started. No idea where 305 flew or Cooper jumped.

It does show up in the transcripts. You can find it on pages 189 and 190. ATC told them they could bust altitude by 4000 feet. 305 also requested not to be restricted by the noise abatement procedure and was granted permission to climb at any angle they needed to. They also were told “No restrictions at all, you fly any way you can do her”. Sluggo Everything you refer to is all before 305 takes off, not during flight. The immediately next exchange is on page 190 (GC): And 305 another suggestion if you do get on top of 10,000 let center know because there's going to be people behind you and probably be trailing along with you. (P): Ground Northwest 305 we didn't answer you, were were talking with the company. (GC): Okay you're going to have people following you all the way down so if you do get on top or where the visibility is good, you might advise center about it. (P): Okay we will do that. Thank-you sir. So how you do interpret that? Why only mention altitude? Everyone can form their own opinions. If people think there's stuff that confirms other stuff, that says 305 wasn't where the flight map path says, that's fine with me. We all have different opinions on lots of stuff. Might as well have different flight paths!

We do know of Captain Bohan who reported that he was a few miles behind and above 305. And as for the ATC, remember 305 is well below what a commercial aircraft would normally be flying the route at. Traffic at 10,000 on a night with marginal weather would have been minimal at best. Plus, given the situation aboard the plane, 305 would likely have been given significant latitude by ATC. My understanding of ATC is that it's not a thing where you can drink beer while working, right? They really like to know what a plane is going to do, before it does it right? If they gave 305 all this "latitude"...wouldn't it show up in the transcripts? "Oh you're flying over there now. OK" "Yeah taking it east a bit" "Roger that. Any way you want to approach PDX is fine with me" "Roger. Yeah we'll see what happens" "Oh there you go, bye bye" "What, you say something? My ears just popped" Doesn't the lack of additional voice comms pretty much say they were flying as expected on V23?? What happens if you're flying and you start diverging? Does ATC say anything to you usually?

It has been said, and I asked Ralph about it, that Rataczak was “hand-flying” the plane. That simply means he wasn’t on any mode of autopilot. He would navigate by VOR/DME. That’s how he knew where he was, and with Mt. St Helens where it was (in 1971), I don’t think he was too far east of V-23. Sure he may have deviated around Portland (the city) and probably did, but not until he was south of Mt. St. Helens. Sluggo_Monster Right. exactly. And the flight path does show he was east of V-23. I don't know what the traffic was like at PDX back then, but I would think that it would be a big deal for PDX ATC if 305 flew east of PDX, as opposed to circling around to the west, like the flight path map shows. Were any other planes in the area in the vicinity? I guess we don't know. I'm expecting someone will eventually draw this magic alternate flight path, and it will be obvious nothing fits with it. It fits as long as you don't draw it. :)

I wanted to post to that thread so bad 377, but I know my place :) I was really curious about the stairs. Were they locked down? I think not. Which means they just dropped from the weight of the two jumpers? I wonder if the stairs popped back up after the jump? I can't see in the first photo. Be interesting to see it in the movie. It's supposed to be in the beginning? It appears to me (from searching around) that the 727-200 had the stair lock down feature, so they could use the aft stairs as a tail stand when a 727 was on the ground. The earlier 727's (like the 727-051 of Cooper's) didn't. Evidently the movie plane was a 727-100, and was owned by Ray Kroc, and was used as the baseball Padres team plane. Remember that Ray Kroc took over MacDonalds and made it huge. Supposedly the jumper landed on Mt. Lemmon in Tucson, AZ?

Hi Jerry. My posts aren't directed to you. Feel free to read them, since I post them for everyone to think about. But you don't need to respond to every one. I have been wondering about your perception of me. I really am 49 turning 50 this summer. It's pretty odd to have you try to interact with me like I'm some kid. From this side, I've given up on getting anything useful from you. Just trying to be straight with you. I'm sure you're a different guy in real life. But that doesn't matter here.

agree. To make matters worse Rat & Scott (Anderson) were apparently never asked to clarify what Rat meant, or what Rat's word "felt" meant. But now, given they had not flown v23 before, Rat's word "felt" may mean: 'I wasnt sure what was what!' Vancouver vs Portland ....... all just lights? They did have charts. And of course if they crossed at Troutdale, that offers a different perspective with Vancouver & Portland on their right flank the whole way through. Good point about the charts Georger. I don't know what Sluggo is saying with respect to the lights, since Rataczak wasn't looking at any chart when he was flying? (edit) Or was he? I'm not sure what the theory is. So if he didn't know the area, he was guessing. If he knew the area, maybe he couldn't see well. I'm still not sure if people think he knew the area or not. What it sounds like, is Rataczak said something, and people are trying to come up with ways to shoehorn it into whatever meaning they're looking for. We need the Rataczak interview from the FBI to go any further on this. I still don't understand how you can look at any of that, and say that is more likely that it means this vs that. And yes, if Flight 305 flew over Troutdale, then even its flying over Troutdale is questionable, because we have no data on that. But if it did, then it could have flown anywhere. And since Rataczak's testimony REALLY doesn't fit then, we just throw it all out! Cooper Jumped At Reno! (edit) Another thought...if Rat wasn't flying V23, how the hell did he know where to go at night in the storm? Did he have a map on his lap he was eyeballing? Looking out the window? and driving around?

Thanks for the info Jerry. No need to answer this post. No questions.

Yes, but certain scenarios are more "possible" or likely than others. Quote I'm saying they're not. You say certain possibilities are more likely? Explain. It seems like rolling a dice to me. You want me to agree that Rataczak didn't know anything about Vancouver or Portland, but that he did know something about the Columbia? How does that make sense? If he didn't know about Vancouver or Portland, then no matter what he said, it's a flip of the coin, guessing its accuracy. How do you dial in "more likely" to something there? (edit) Is there a quote about 10 miles from Portland? That would be good if so. I may have forgotten that one. Repost?

I had mentioned how the book "The Real McCoy" chronicled Karen McCoy's extensive involvement in the McCoy hijack, and wondered why she wasn't charged. In the 1992 court case about the book, Karen McCoy testified in court that she did help. I didn't purchase the full articles, but you get the idea. The final thing was that any movie made couldn't include certain allegations (minor sounding ones to me). But she said in 1992, finally, that she did help. Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT) - February 21, 1992 MCCOY'S WIDOW ADMITS HELPING IN '72 HIJACKING A tale of air piracy, escape from a federal prison and a deadly shootout may also become a story of physical and sexual abuse.Karen McCoy, the widow of slain hijacker Richard McCoy, revealed for the first time Thursday her extensive involvement in her husband's 1972 hijacking of United Airlines Flight 855. During a daylong hearing in 3rd District Court, McCoy acknowledged that she bought her husband's parachute, helped him prepare his disguise, typed the... Deseret News, The (Salt Lake City, UT) - February 21, 1992 IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD: POLICE AND COURTS Salt Lake City Hijacker's accomplice: Karen McCoy - who is trying to prevent the sale of a book about her husband, the slain hijacker Richard McCoy - admitted to a 3rd District judge that she helped her husband prepare for the 1972 hijacking of a United Airlines plane, from which he parachuted over Provo. BOOK ON HIJACK CAPER ESCAPES INJUNCTION WIDOW OF MAN IDENTIFIED AS... $2.95 - Rocky Mountain News - NewsBank - Feb 22, 1992 During testimony Thursday, Karen McCoy contended the book and the ... Karen McCoy denied allegations in the book that she drove a getaway car in her ... MCCOY'S WIDOW ADMITS HELPING IN '72 HIJACKING $2.95 - Deseret News - NewsBank - Feb 21, 1992 Karen McCoy, the widow of slain hijacker Richard McCoy, revealed for the first time ... Those allegations are: Karen McCoy threatened to throw her infant ...

Jo said: "That because Tosaw is as much an opionated A.." In reading all the DBC literature and news articles, I think it's fair to say Himmelsbach was the most opinionated of anyone. Then maybe Tosaw. Not sure of the order after that.

All this speculation about Rataczak's familiarity with low level ID of Vancouver, Portland, PDX, Columbia, Willliamette is all just speculation and anything is possible. But I was thinking that if Rataczak had landed/taken off from PDX before, then he would have similar low altitude familiarity with the surrounding area. So, yeah Sluggo, Rataczak may have meant Vancouver. He might have seen the Columbia, or he might not have. There's no way to prove anything. Any possibility is as good as another. Anyone arguing that they really know what the couple of one-liners from Ckret mean, is really just guessing.

sluggo said: "Also, [REDACTED] was going to check his records and let me know his source for a statement attributed to First Officer Rataczak during the sled-drop test. Rataczak was reported to have said that the "pressure bump" during the drop test "triggered a recollection" of the same sort of pressure bump, during the flight." This is interesting, except Rataczak wasn't on the drop test, right? We have no information that puts Rataczak on the drop test. Only Anderson. There is also the rumor that Soderlind actually flew the test drop, which would be interesting because he had some medical issues that restricted his flying (not sure of exact year that kicked in). We talked about how the drop test crew was funny....that the people on the drop test weren't the key people flying the plane. Now the results of the drop test may have been discussed before or after, with Rataczak? Before, if during the test they were looking to confirm something Rataczak said. But I thought Anderson was the one who confirmed that it was similar, and he was speaking for the crew. Maybe not.

Jerry said "I have not discussed this with anyone else" Hi Jerry. I once put together a list of attributes that seem to be common to anyone involved with the DBC thing historically. One is "secret information" Why would you not discuss it with anyone else? Another is "Other people can understand that certain things need to be secret" Why would you mention how you haven't discussed it with anyone else? Why would we care? You've got a map. You put it together based on some set of information. Okay. Maybe it represents a good theory, maybe not. But why the cloak and dagger stuff? Here's a thought: If you think you have secret information, what's the likelihood that others have secreter information that renders your secret information invalid/nonsensical? See there's no reason that you Jerry, are somehow the top of the secret pyramid. But maybe there's something I'm missing. TK has reasons for secrets, but they're around ego, publishing rights, buddy-buddy with Ckret to get info. Are yours similar? With Himmelsbach? (seems like a poor trade. TK did better)

Yes. Jerry says H hs seen both the NWA and FBI yellow, and Jerry confirms there is a third map - I faield to ask: Is there a fourth map? A fifth map? Etc! Jerry didn't say there was a third map, or at least I didn't think he did. If there's a third map, it could have been drawn by H. or Jerry, outside of the FBI investigation. Jerry must have something he's using. But it's unlikely the FBI has a third map.

georger said: " From a professional point of view if I were Larry I would feel Tosaw was a bit of an intruder .... imagine how H might feel. " In reading Tosaw's book, I don't think he ever saw the flight path map that we have currently? Tosaw's viewpoint wasn't from the flight path map, testimony, etc. He just thought: "money there, therefore Cooper must be nearby" (edit) But then again, apparently Himmelsbach never saw the flight path map? or did he? This whole thing is so fuzzy.

Georger said "Coming up on Portland." What do you consider Portland, or it's center? Portland natives talk about "Old Portland" being one center. It's on the Williamette. It's a very old city. 1851. Take a look at this 1897 map of Porland. Nothing up by the Columbia! (barely in the map!)

georger said: "True. The word Felt masks all the hard data. I find that very strange. Maddening frankly. If they "felt" Cooper had jumped then why didn't they "feel" to take some hard bearings? It almost sounds as if nobody cared. " Yes! Two guys flying a 727, with tons of communication capability, and instrumentation, and we're guessing about the word "felt". And even about Rataczak 9 years later saying "I think maybe we were over there more"...and people believing that. Man, one comment from Rataczak, and we could have Cooper jumping outside Reno!

Georger said: "My guess is, Larry already knew 'everything' we have come up with, except for when you came up with the comic book. I have a strong suspicion that is the case, or some close relative of that. " Yes, It was odd. On the one hand, Larry really did seem to be acting like some stuff was new to him. On the other hand, he acted like he already had his mind made up. For instance, I thought he might have been just playing along with SafecrackingPLF's map stuff. But maybe not. There was a time towards the end, where Larry sounded pissed because he seemed to feel like he was keeping us "entertained" for some reason. And we didn't show enough appreciation for his efforts. As opposed to really wanting any more input. I wasn't interested in being entertained, so I clearly didn't give any appreciation. You could write this off though, by saying he had hit the limit for information he could disclose. But that's obviously not true since you guys have the Clay Report and we don't. Larry seemed to want to control the discussion. Can see that in the latest FBI videos etc. Larry seems to think having it be more controlled, will lead to more success than fully uncontrolled. It's a conundrum, because it's not really throwing it open to the public, it's some weird halfway point. I think that's what created all the stress..in addition to there being obvious flaws in the historical investigation. I think also there's some history where they don't want Tosaw to be right in any way. (don't know if he is, but there seems to be a bias against Tosaw's thinking).

Right. Basically we haven't got a clue. We're trying to guess based on Rataczak testimony we don't have (because there is no other data to bound the jump point), and all we have is a couple of short sentences from Ckret. It is unclear whether Ckret had more, or even if Ckret might have editorialized. Note: The comment about the Columbia, as far as Ckret told us, was "felt", not seen. Ckret never described what "felt" was based on. Instruments? Time? Lights of Portland? Unclear. However, there is some other good data we could muse on. Whoever created the flight path, saw fit to put radar ticks after the Columbia. Why? Could also ask why the first radar tick was selected to be 19:54 (it's not at Seattle). Looking at Sluggo's annotated flight path, there are actually more radar ticks that he's not labelled, past the Columbia. I see 20:19, 20:20, 20:21 at least to 20:25 Here's another thing to muse on: The 3 mystery ticks west of the flight path, are on the other side of the Columbia.