snowmman

Here's the thing we all know. If we all were warriors just shooting it out with each other, then we'd be back a couple hundred years in human civilization. Could be fun, as long as you have better technology than the other guy. It sucks being the guy who's shorthanded! The place in modern day society for warriors, is when you don't need a lot of them. If you need a lot of them, then something is fundamentally screwed up in the way the world interacts..It's not sustainable for us all to arm up and take aim. So if you have this smaller set of warriors, then they need support. Everyone feels strong with a gun in their hands, but nowadays, if that's all you got, you're a dead man pretty quick. Any modern day warrior, I'm sure, acknowledges the need for, and appreciation of the heroes that provide all sorts of direct and indirect support. Right? That's just reality. (edit) my brother designs missile systems. How weird is that?

377 said: "Either could have done it." Why do you say that? I guess anyone could have done it since the whuffo theory is plausible. If so, there's never a reason to say "either could have done it" The entire world is plausible Cooper, right? (as long as they match physical description) What do you use to exclude Coopers, other than physical description? (I've never seen much detail that's traceable on Gossett's military history. So if you use military history, point to the source) (edit) I am Cooper. Proof: see avatar to the left.

I just realized I've made a massive error. There is no way Waugh could be Cooper. I forgot Galen Cook has evidence that confirms William Pratt Gossett is Cooper. Close call! Sorry.

thanks 377. I'm honestly looking for perspective. Yours was a good one.

I was thinking I sounded too negative with my phrase "macho posturing". Au contraire. When someone's facing a possible death scenario, you definitely want the machine known as your body, to be firing on all 12 cylinders..i.e. everything on 150%. The body (mind and body) doesn't work fully rationally. So whatever it takes to get that 150%, is by definition, correct. I've seen some SF texts with this paraphrase. Makes sense. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil: for I am the meanest bastard in the valley." Whatever attitude works, is by definition, correct, unless other attitudes can be shown to be equally successful in the goal. Airtwardo touched on this when he was talking about skydiver attitudes and Jo, I think.

It seems no one wants to have a conversation about this hero thing. I understand it's sensitive and sure to inflame. Hero is not a word I would throw around lightly. We all have our own personal heroes, and maybe that's part of it. In reading Waugh's stuff, his book, his interactions with the people under him, his successes, his failures, his rescues, his documenting of missions...yes there are heroics. But he's just as human as anyone. Heroes I think are what we want to think people can be. Everyone has tragic flaws. We all overlook some selectively. I would really like someone to talk about why they consider Waugh a hero. I know about his injuries. I know about the battle he got the Silver Star for. I know about some of his SF missions. But [it reads like] there's a lot of "gunslinger" ...kind of "out for his own adrenaline rush" aspect to him. I can see how skydivers and SF types might admire that. But that's just an operational thing. You admire the guy who can get it done. Somewhat like admiring a good carpenter, just in a different more lethal business. I think when one says "hero"...it's like saying you'd like your kid to be a bit like that. Educate me. For instance, are there accounts of Billy's love of America, and what he thinks the America he envisions is? We all have our view of America. What's Billy's? (edit) For the squeamish: Remember that Billy wrote a book about himself. He wants people to buy the book and read it. If the assumption is that no discussion of Billy is "allowed" after that, well that's not how the whole author->book->reader process works, right? So I'm not being a jerk.

In the jungle, squatting, getting strong

I got to wondering about this hero business, and looked up stuff on medals during Vietnam. I did a quick look and I think I got the numbers and medal descriptions right. I read some stuff that talked about issues with who got medals, and why. So medals aren't the only sign of heroism. There were a lot of people doing heroic things. I suppose anyone who went there and did their best was a hero at some level. Even though some medals are issued by specific services, they can issue them to other services or even civilian. During the Vietnam War: There were 242 Medals of Honor issued 1043 Distinguished Service Crosses (mostly Army) issued 180 Air Force Cross (mostly Air Force) 485 Navy Cross (mostly USN + USMC) 21,000 Silver Stars issued The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration awarded by the United States government. It is bestowed on a member of the United States armed forces who distinguishes him- or herself "conspicuously by gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his [or her] life above and beyond the call of duty while engaged in an action against an enemy of the United States." Because of the nature of its criteria, the medal is often awarded posthumously. Teddy Roosevelt lobbied for one but never received it, and General George Patton said "I'd sell my immortal soul for that Medal." The Distinguished Service Cross (DSC) is the second highest military decoration that can be awarded to a member of the United States Army, awarded for extreme gallantry and risk of life in actual combat with an armed enemy force. Actions that merit the Distinguished Service Cross must be of such a high degree to be above those required for all other U.S. combat decorations but not meeting the criteria for the Medal of Honor. The Distinguished Service Cross is equivalent to the Navy Cross (Navy and Marine Corps) and the Air Force Cross (Air Force). The Silver Star is the third highest military decoration that can be awarded to a member of any branch of the United States Armed Forces. It is also the third highest award given for valor (in the face of the enemy). The Silver Star is awarded for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States not justifying a Service Cross - The Army Distinguished Service Cross, The Navy Cross, or The Air Force Cross. It may be awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Armed Forces, distinguishes himself or herself by extraordinary heroism involving one of the following actions: * In action against an enemy of the United States * While engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force * While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party

Yeah, now that I think about it Jo's probably right and we're off base. Let's talk about panties. What's the best kind of panty lines to see on a woman's jumpsuit? (in the air or on the jumpship)?

I read I think in that interview, the guy was talking about how much Billy drives around (mileage on the car was mentioned)...and he joked it was because Billy can't fly because he carries so many weapons. I took it as some kind of bullshit SF macho posturing, but who knows, maybe he gets to run around the US with an M4 in his trunk.. Maybe I need to upgrade the defenses. There's a guy on a web forum who said he can sell me one of these. I'm kind of hesitant cause I think maybe Ebay might have it cheaper? (attached) (edit) also vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY4hbTyhoxc (edit) Now I don't know who to side with: Chuck Norris vs Billy Waugh who wins?

:) Yeah that's what's so funny. We get all worked up about Saddam et al, and then oh by the way, most of our terrorism shit is home grown or exported. I couldn't believe that the amount of C4 that was manufactured in the US for Wilson to ship to Libya EQUALED the total amount of C4 that was legally in the US at the time already. (if that statement was true. Don't know). What happened to that C4? Did the US intercept it before Libya got it? Our terrorists turn out to be guys like Timothy McVeigh. Or that US government lab guy who sent the anthrax around and oh by the way the US labs were the ones who were "weaponizing". We point the finger at other countries, but the thumb always points back at us. Allah told me that Mother Earth needs martyrdom. It's a good goal the whole planet can rally around. I remember a friend who always used to say "I don't get this "agree to disagree" stuff. Cavemen never did that. They just beat the shit out of the other guy" Now what about the history of the world? See all these web posts won't matter, because they won't last. It's amazing to me the longevity of information storage like cave paintings, the pyramids, rock, etc. I'm digging a cave and painting the story of Cooper on the walls. It's my gift to the future.

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce. Get with the program. Larry Carr says we're looking for an ADD engineer, dead, that was a comic book reading Loadmaster in some unknown theater. Do you need a good tazering or what? It's so funny us talking CIA, and you read cnn.com and it's all about CIA lying to congress for the last couple years. ho-hum. Same old, same old. What the f* is this pile of C4 laying in my yard for? I thought we shipped it to South Africa already? Geez you can't get good help in a web forum any more. (edit) remember when I talked about private mercenary armies. I'm only marginally nice to Sluggo, because I figure when the shit hits the fan, and it comes down who's got a tactical nuke and who doesn't, maybe Sluggo will put a word in for me down at the factory.

I'm surprised how you guys seem to forget all the points and possibilities and theories that have been raised over the last 12 months. Remember the whole speculation about the tie being left on purpose, kind of as a psychological thing. Kind of a trophy exchange. I mean we were looking for someone out of a job..fired or retiring etc. Billy fits that profile. (edit) and the "giddy" reaction to the money. There are plenty of accounts online of how Billy was always a gentleman. But when the shit hit the fan, he loved it and would get a big grin, or crack a joke. (edit) the reason they gave him was that there was no room at the inn for him at Fort Bragg...they had enough sergeant majors (e9?) there already and wanted to ship him elsewhere. So he retired.

Yeah, the process flaw I'd like to avoid is premature optimization...i.e. drilling into one detail too early, and using that to steer away from the potential solution. Every suspect could not be Cooper. But the number of suspects that should have high probabilities, should be small. The important thing is to keep the net full, and try to improve the probability factor for each suspect, with more information. Sometimes more info increases probability, sometimes decreases. Not keep emptying the net on minor details, and saying "Where's Cooper, we've looked at 8 billion suspects, and we KNOW he's not any of them" More information related to photos etc might be able to guarantee that the scars absolutely exclude someone. But the overwhelming amount of other stuff, that fits a profile, makes me want to put the scars in the "don't know yet" category. It seems like a no-brainer, that if the 305 hijack was planned, then minimally you'd hide visible scars and tattoos. I think in the pics you can see a tat on the arm of Waugh. But that would have been covered up. He seemed to like rings and watches. I was wondering if removal of rings would have left a white line. But I would think in combat he wouldn't wear all that bling? Unclear. Georger can focus on the bling maybe. Also: what was his marital and family status in 1971? brothers/sisters/girlfriend/wife/ex-wife? I would imagine you'd investigate that stuff before getting all worked up about faint lines on a May 1971 photo. But hey that's just me. I'm not a 72 year old Osama finder. (edit) If he had any family, and he was Cooper, maybe we could find them and find something where they'd give him up?

The reason I'm ignoring georger's scar question, is because it's unresolvable. Yes there might be something. Need more photos to know. In any case, it raises the interesting question of whether the makeup possibilities we've debated ad nauseum, actually could have some truth..i.e. how hard would it be to hide any scars sufficiently? Not enough info to know. Georger might want to fire a couple posts, but I'm in the "can't know" camp. (based on the May 1971 photo)

Don't know if this is true. Sedgewick Tourison was Investigator for the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. I did find another report that before the first HALO jumps, they had information that the NVA knew about the planned jumps, even mentioning team members names. (edit) be nice to have access to Gaspard's "extensive SOG photo collection" from page 464 of John L. Plaster's "SOG: A Photo History of tthe Secret Wars" ...sending teams into the North and enemy security concerns shifted to the Ho Chi Minh Trail, American-led recon teams also began encountering NVA troops that seemed to have been waiting for them. Two of the war's most critical Hatchet Force operations—the raid on the Trail headquarters in Laos and the raid on COSVN headquarters in Cambodia—immediately followed B-52 strikes, but the raids turned into ambushes in which many SOG men died. Twice, just before HALO jumps, the NSA intercepted NVA radio messages alerting enemy forces to the jumps—complete with grid coordinates! And how was it possible that SOG Bright Light rescues liberated nearly 500 South Vietnamese POWs, but not one single American? Bright Light teams often found that Americans had been there, but had been moved only hours before the raid. Why? Late in the war, a low-ranking South Vietnamese enlisted man serving at SOG headquarters had failed a polygraph test, but he lacked enough access to have compromised so many key operations over so many years. Most SOG men believed there was a much deeper mole who held higher rank. They were right. Long after the war, analyst Sedgewick Tourison reported to SOG Maj. George Gaspard that Vietnam's communist newspapers and TV had hailed a "hero" identified only as Agent Francois, who had helped the Ministry of Security thwart many U.S. spy operations. He was cited as a senior South Vietnamese officer working in SOG headquarters. Looking through Gaspard's extensive SOG photo collection, Tourison found the face that matched the shadowy Agent Francois he'd seen on TV in Hanoi—it was the major who'd run the Long-Term Agent program, then worked elsewhere at SOG headquarters. In fact, Gaspard recalled, the Vietnamese officer had told him he'd begun his intelligence career working with French intelligence—the Deuxieme Bureau—in the French-Indochina War. Perhaps today Francois is a hero in his land, but to the wartime friends and allies he betrayed—Americans and indigenous—he is the most despicable of traitors.

I wonder if they thought the Jackal hunter might be able to help track down Bin Laden? 377 I'll be the first to admit I don't have a clue how realistic all of his post Vietnam exploits are. I just can't tell. To be honest, it sounds like he got hired as a contractor (they use him as an example of the profileration of hired guns). I suspect there were more serious private contractors around. But I don't know. Hey you know what's fun! The whole military scene worldwide is degenerating into masses of private mercenary armies. It's like you do your time in the real armies, just to get a resume together. Then you make your money doing private mercenary stuff, like Billy. Makes sense. I can't understand why Billy says he was on the front lines of going after guys like Osama and the Jackal. I mean if that's the best we got, it's pretty pitiful. He's an old guy...why do old guys believe just because they may be wily, that somehow they represent the best the world can buy?

Excellent. You're right that it'd be obvious to him if we tried hiring him for a job (wait, didn't the US govt do that just recently when someone paid him to go to Afghanistan in 2001 or so?)...but you're right most any skydiver would believe that a woman is actually interested in them because ..uh... I guess I don't know why. (edit) and that includes the women! JOKE!

We run our own covert op. Need some jumpers, and a 727. We hire the gunslinger, Waugh, to oversee a drop and provide security. We get DNA and fingerprints covertly. Plus, we tell Waugh in the end, so he can write about it in his next book. everybody wins.

from page 297 http://books.google.com/books?id=tEv4-55pnRAC&pg=PA297 It cites: "Some of those teams confirmed as "under hostile control" might receive one last visit from a Blackbird, parachuting a final "resupply" drop into the darkened landscape below. These were "special" packages, booby trapped with high explosives set to explode when the container was opened by the double agents." (edit) a couple of random pics I like 1) a skyhook ride, from a test run 2) Always make sure you have some grenades and smoke on top of your commo gear 3) a couple of mh47es in afghanistan (recent). Nice shades! Nice knife!

377 will like to read about the current MC-130E Combat Talon I, outfitted for covert missions with the Fulton Air Recovery system here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/mc-130e.htm But this post is about a SOG C-130 (Combat Talon) lost in North Vietnam. These were called Blackbirds, and the missions were part of a deployment called Project Stray Goose. I found another book that I referenced before, but reading it on Google books, it has a lot of good stuff and photos of planes etc. Details of the lost C-130, plus other stuff 377 will love is here on page 296. can scroll back and forth a couple of pages for more info. It also has details about C-130 flights into North Vietnam with US jumpmasters, and Cambodian or South Vietnamese jumpers. "Combat Spear" was another project name for these out-of-country flights. It also notes that the infils had an almost 100% failure rate. Almost 456 agents were captured or killed almost immediately after infil (page 297). Others still MIA. http://books.google.com/books?id=tEv4-55pnRAC&pg=PA296&lpg=PA296&dq=stray+goose+S-01+north+vietnam&source=bl&ots=6ow72pVZDF&sig=RvjNMsIXli_1vTdHjx3B4nMduTY&hl=en&ei=h0VWSou2DYbgsQODhLH0AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3 HALO is mentioned on page 298 http://books.google.com/books?id=tEv4-55pnRAC&pg=PA298 Attached a photo of SSgt Franklin Miller who eventually got a Medal of Honor. He's waiting for extraction of his recon team, pinned down by fire. The lost C-130's crew: COMBAT TALON AIRCREW S-01 Lost during combat mission into North Vietnam - 29 December 1967 - Lieutenant Colonel Donald E. Fisher - Navigator Major Charles P. Claxton - Pilot Captain Edwin N. Osborne, Jr. - Aircraft Commander Captain Frank C. Parker, III - Electronics Warfare Officer Captain Gerald G. Van Buren - Pilot Captain Gordon J. Wenaas - Navigator Technical Sergeant Jack McCrary - Flight Engineer Staff Sergeant Gene P. Clapper - Radio Operator Staff Sergeant Edward J. Darcy - Loadmaster Staff Sergeant Wayne A. Eckley - Flight Engineer Sergeant James A. Williams - Loadmaster from the book: "The term Blackbirds was frequently applied to both the First Flight C-123ks and the four C-130Es assigned to a different squadron. The C-130E squadron went through several different designations during its tour in South Vietnam. Initially assigned as Detachment 1, 314th Tactical Airlift Wing, it subsequently became the 15th Air Commando Squadron, later the 15th Special Operations Squadron, then the 90th SOS before it's departure to Kadena Air Base, Okinawa in 2972...The author uses the term Blackbirds as it was the one name that remained consistent throughout this period."

There are always a bazillion ways to perceive things. I really enjoy the book reviews by experienced SF guys. (I'm assuming this guy was SF since his photos were in the book..but it's a good review in any case). He suggests "Almost all of the SOG commanders were either WWII OSS or .." We've talked about Vietnam ages. I suppose it is unique to both be old, and NCO (not officer) in vietnam. He also mentioned how most official photos were destroyed in 1972. This is a review of "SOG: A Photo History of the Secret Wars" John L Plaster's second book. (he's done a bunch by now) from: http://www.amazon.com/SOG-Photo-History-Secret-Wars/dp/1581600585 March 26, 2000 By Neil Terrell (Chicago, Illinois) If you thought John's first book was a trip (SOG: The Secret Wars of America's Commandos in Vietnam), this one is mandatory. It is bound to become required reading in every senior war college in every country in the world. It is covert operation best of breed techniques and tactics evolved by both sides over an eight year period. It also puts an evolutionary perspective on the development of those tactics and techniques. How to put em in, pull em out, what to wear, what to take, what to do while you're there, how to do it, and what to whistle while you're doing it. Moves and counter moves. "Hey John, what do we do about the dogs?" Because both books cover the same unit and period, there is a superficial duplication. The first book was primarily a collection of amazing, small, war stories in a historical framework with enough background and profile material to hold anyone's interest. While it had a little of the soldier's bias "from the bottom of the trench", the current book is a lot more objective with more history and substantial tactical and technical detail. Did I mention 700 photographs? Two of the photographs are mine and he actually spelled my name right - Thank you John. About half of the book could (and will) be used as textbook and manual for future recon operations. It also includes a lot of info on the intel/spy/psyops operations and miscellaneous odds & ends we occasionally got mixed up in. The photographs are unreal. Nothing like this has ever been done. It is an instant classic in military circles. This unit was unique in that it could only have evolved in the way that it did in the time frame and with the people as they existed. Almost all of the SOG commanders were either WWII OSS or jungle guerilla types. The last missions were run in '72 and in another 2 or 3 years, all of the experienced people from SOG left in the military will have retired. The Army in their infinite (and normal) wisdom evidently destroyed the photographs and most of the documentation. The senior brass that is left will not have the foggiest idea of what this is all about. You can recreate the TO&E and fill the slots, but you cannot order people to do what the men in this unit volunteered to do three or four times a day (or night). John does an excellent job describing that esprit de corps and comradery that makes men stand in line, without a thought to personal safety, to leap in harm's way to rescue another. There was a lot of James Bond and John Wayne in this outfit. What does live on exists in the spirit and knowledge imparted to and residing in the various Special Operations Command units. There is still some well deserved bitterness because we often had to fight our own senior military command, State Department, and politicians as well as the North Vietnamese, and any of the above could get you killed. There might be some more bitterness due to the fact that after the US pulled out of South Vietnam, a lot of the natives, both Montagnard and Vietnamese, that we worked and fought with, and loved, probably wound up against a wall or spent at least a decade or more in re-education camps. It should also be noted that the SOG vets that brought these photos back with them to the States were also in some serious jeopardy because of the TOP SECRET classification on all of SOG's activities. Photographs showing identifiable terrain features in Laos, Cambodia, or North Vietnam would identify the photographer as being in those forbidden or illegal locations. Photos showing actual operations in progress, people preparing for operations, and people returning from operations could create some rather enormous international problems (and maybe a wee bit of political embarrassment) when obviously American led troops were still in NVA uniforms and carrying AK-47's. Real "Spy" spoken here folks. The release or publication of these types of photos could have resulted in prosecution and up to 20 years in a Federal Fun Resort. That was then - this book is now and belongs to all of us with John still in the one-zero seat. When Hollywood gets around to SOG, they will have to tread lightly. The problem they will have to face will be believability, because the reality was much larger than any fiction and no writer would dare to go this far out on the credibility limb. But then, there are those 700 photos.

Jerry Thomas, I know when I post about Vietnam, it dredges up hurt. And I wasn't there. And I know that most vets have this feeling, that's true, that people can't understand. I know I don't. But that's the reality we're stuck with. However: even though I've argued with you in the past on this stupid Cooper thing, I hate the thought that I may have said something stupid, that caused any pain. Just fire a post and say "no worries, snow". (edit) On the other hand, maybe the thought is "snow's a dumb fuck. Ignore him." That's actually probably the better, more appropriate response!

377 said: "I sometimes try to backplot from your results to see where my searches missed the boat and I am still puzzled at how you found your gems." Hmm. kinda dense. You didn't realize why I posted about the Leghorn and Hickory sites, and their NSA intercept gear? :)

Roy was the last recipient of the Medal Of Honor for the Vietnam War, being awarded to him by President Ronald Regan thirteen years after the fact. Roy was Yaqui Indian. I can't help but be drawn to the stories of minority ethnic groups drawn into Vietnam. I've mentioned the indigeneous Montagnards before. Why is it compelling to me? I think because Vietnam was a white man's war. A lot of people were used, perhaps without fully informed consent. Nungs are mentioned here. In many accounts from Vietnam, Nungs, Montagnards and ARVN are just referred to anonymously, without names. They died just as surely as US troops. But I want this post to remember Roy. from http://www.macvsog.cc/1968.htm 02 May 68- Leory N. Wright, SFC E-7 and Lloyd F. Mousseau, SSG E-6, USASF, and four (+) SCU Nungs, B-56, Recon Mission-KIA The team of three Americans and nine SCU Nungs was inserted into the Fishhook, Cambodia. Larry S. McKibben, WO1; Michael D. Craig, SP4; & Nelson E.Fourier, SP4 of the 240th AHC (Their photo's and personal inforamtion can be viewed at the 240th ACH Memorial. The team Immediately upon insertion, engaged an enemy squad, shooting their way clear only to be engaged by a platoon size element a half hour later. The team was able to work their way back to the LZ; however, due to a massive number of NVA and heavy enemy fire pinned the team down and forced away any rescue attempt. The team was now engaged by several enemy companies using mortars, RPG, and machine guns. The team leader, Leory Wright was struck in the head by a single enemy AK bullet, killing him. Lloyd Moussea, one-one, and Brian O'Conner, one-two, were wounded several times. Half of the SCU Nungs were dead and the other half wounded. A one-man bright light team arrived, Roy Benavides, a heavy set Yaqui Indian, wounded immediately in the leg, continuing his rescue, bandaged the wounds and injecting morphine the best he could as he called in air strikes when wounded in the thigh. As he attempted to recover Wright?s body, he was wounded again through a lung, he pulled himself to his feet to discover a Huey lying on it?s side. Benavides, then stumbled to LZ to assist those survivors and was shot again. Five minutes later, Benavides was shot once more and another aircraft crashed. A lone helicopter then arrived with Ronald Sammons, a Green Beret medic, and assisted Benavides recover the crew members and members of the recon team. During this process, while carrying Mousseau, Benavides was clubbed in the head by an NVA AK, knocking Benavides to his knees only to be butt-stroked in the face and then bayoneted through his left arm by the NVA soldier. Mousseau died on the helicopter and Benevides survived to face a year of hospitalization mending a total of seven major gunshot wounds, twenty-eight shrapnel holes and a bayonet wound. Roy Benavides died December 1998 of those wounds he suffered so many years ago and I believe his last written correspondence was to me where he wrote on the 17th day of November 1998, among other things he wrote: "I still have a dream which I look forward to fulfilling: as you know, Love for our Country and freedom for our loved ones runs deep in the American soldier?s blood. Prayerfully, I look forward to the time when a movie may be made of my life. There is so much to tell the American youth about struggles and perseverance that I firmly believe the real message could so easily reach them in a movie (story) of my life." Roy was the last recipient of the Medal Of Honor for the Vietnam War, being awarded to him by President Ronald Regan thirteen years after the fact.