snowmman

You've labelled one sand area. I believe the area S of Tina Bar is also a sand accumulation area. When you zoom in you can tell it's sand that seems to have been leveled by scrapers or other earth moving equipment. (edit) there's no quarry I'm aware of. I thought all the sand is from dredging (annual) not sure what you mean. Can you mark it on the map? I used to hop trains when I was young (actually like 12 years old!) with Marty D. who always had M-80s on July 4th....whenever you see double tracks, there's the possibilty of a side switch they use to let trains pass each other on a single track. Good place to hop a ride. We always grabbed the ladder by the wheels while the train was moving. It was cheating to get on a stopped train!...The scary part was jumping off, since the trains were accelerating..Hey, not much different than a PLF now that I think of it.. If you want an injured/dead Cooper story...then hopping a train, and trying to jump off in the dark while the train is going 50 mph will probably do it. Train tracks are good to follow. I used to walk between home and another town following the tracks. No one ever saw you. Only scary part was getting stuck on a big high long wooden trestle with a train coming. There was an escape platform, but the railings were missing. Scary standing there looking down 150' with a big train going by! Yeah, spent a lot of time down by the tracks as a kid... (did you know if you get "torpedoes" off a caboose, and strap them to the track, they explode when the train runs over them as a warning signal to the train and the engineer will slow/stop he train?...oh I didn't know that either) There you go, a whole nice little theory about how Duane hopped a ride on a train that night! Like I said, we can manufacture theories left and right..it's pretty easy.

ok got it. Glad to see you're still open minded pending more information. I think you need to find someone expert in weathering of canvas also? I'm assuming the bank bag was untreated for UV etc like some other canvas. It may have been treated for water repellancy. I'm no expert, but my reading says that an assumption of canvas bag survival for 8-1/2 years, outdoors, given the possibilities of burial, full submersion, partial submersion, or sitting on land in shade or sun...well, it's not clear we should assume that the bag survives. We've talked a lot about money condition, even though we're not experts. If our theory requires a bag that stays in one piece we need to have some data that supports that possibility?

Hi Ckret, I'm not sure what all your thinking is, but one can pick a simple theory and say "it works"...i.e. money bag disconnects from Cooper, lands on the bank of the Columbia, stays there a while, eventually makes it to Tina Bar. Cooper lands somewhere else successfully. And then there are lots of other possibilities from there. How are you going to evaluate whether some alternate theory a hydrologist might provide, is better or worse? Is the timing for a jump near the banks of the Columbia not workable? I'm confused about how you could "lead with data" from a hydrologist. Doesn't make sense to me. I must be missing something. I could believe that a hydrologist might convince you that no water movement theory makes sense. That would help convince you of a money plant story. Basically, I can't picture what a hydrologist might tell you that will make you say "Aha, that's a good theory and should be used to modify/fine tune other parts of our theory"

I've been musing about my experiences with canvas boat covers, and canvas tarps over woodpiles. I can't get my head around the idea of a canvas money bag lasting 8-1/2 years and providing protection/containerization to money during that period. If it was buried, I would think decomposition would accelerate, (moisture and increased microbial activity from ground contact?) so even if bag had protection from sun/air/water, it doesn't seem to help the 8-1/2 year lifetime problem. There are also some industry standard texts addressing weathering of materials/textiles. They've mentioned the decrease in tensile strength of canvas with weathering..i.e. bag becomes easier to rip apart over time. Here's some info from a canvas supplier, suggesting 5 year lifetimes for outdoor canvas, assuming maintenance. from: http://www.westerncanvas.com/material.htm We have found in our 20 years of manufacturing tents and tipis, that tipis manufactured out of Sunforager brand material that are intended for extended use or left up year round can experience accelerated deterioration when exposed to the following: - intense UV radiation (4000 ft. and higher elevation) - coastal areas with salt air - areas of significant air pollution - areas of high rainfall - areas with prolonged periods of high humidity. 5oz Untreated Cotton-We offer a heavy weight (15oz) 100% cotton duck. Although the untreated canvas is susceptible to the harmful effects of sun and moisture, it is an inexpensive alternative for Arid to Semi-Arid climates. The cotton duck has a natural water repellency due to the 15oz of thread per square yard and is a durable fabric. Longevity 1-5 years depending upon climate conditions and maintenance. 12.98oz Marine Finish Boatshrunk has two treatments for water repellence and mildew resistance. The 10.10 oz weight and 12.65 oz weight refers to the ounces of thread per square yard of material and we use 36" material in our tents and tipis. Longevity 2-5 years depending upon climate conditions and maintenance. 12.98oz Fire Resistant has the treatments for water repellence and mildew resistance and an additional flame retardant quality which meets the flammability standards of CPAI~84, an industry wide standard. Longevity 2-5 years depending upon climate conditions and maintenance.

I think a lot of tests could be done before a jump test, by tieing bags (with money or money substitute) up and tieing them to a steel support sticking out of a car, then driving about 120mph and seeing what happens. Turbulence/chaos won't be the same, but it will be interesting. It's not a jet exit, but if you see bag loss at those speeds, you know you don't have to do the jet exit. If you see the bag staying there, no matter what you do, then it's interesting, and proves the need for a jet jump. You can try lots of loose bag methods.

The snag/raft theory is good. Although it means the bag would continue on the snag/raft down the Columbia...i.e. a snag makes it more likely for the rest of the bag/money to have been found, I think? So the theory would have to say why bag or money didn't similarly deposit more bundles anywhere that were findable, on it's trip farther down the Columbia, after it left Tina Bar. You could say "it did and wasn't found". But then you're really just on the path of a random theory that's no better or worse than any other one.

Ckret, since we can't know for sure how Cooper secured the bag, we should focus on the experiment goal. The goal is to get more data on the likelihood of Cooper hitting the ground with the bag, given a variety of attach methods. We should start with a perceived "worst case" scenario. I think the idea of a loose bag, only attached by a loop of rope to the harness would be very interesting, since people have said things like it would knock him out, etc. I don't know if you can find a jumper to jump with a loose bag, but I'd be interested in knowing what happens with that. Maybe if they wear a helmet, and can cut it away easily, the risk is okay? it would also create maximum turbulence/swinging for trying to dislodge the bag from it's wrapped suspension line attach method. Chose any method for that. I would just tell the jumper to do something that he thinks will survive the jet exit. After seeing the results of that experiment, you can brainstorm a couple more. But start with worst case.

I saw Ckret's post about bank bags. Interestingly, I was perusing the Brinks FBI page, (doesn' everyone read the entire fbi.gov with coffee every morning?) and I "think" a new picture is there (or I missed it before) showing bank bags from the Brinks event. Only relevant in that it shows tied open necked bank bags. Which is applicable. An issue came to mind in looking at the two bags in the photo. How full was the Cooper bag? If it was "very full" then it would be more difficult to get a secure top tie. If it was half full, it'd be easier (see the picture). I think we had the exact dimensions of the bag before? Or did we? Can someone confirm that? I think we need to know exactly how much extra fabric was loose at the top, after all the money was in there. Note I'm assuming a "neck" tie as shown in the photo, as opposed to a "fold down the top and secure" tie. (edit) I added some more money bag photos. Interestingly one has an integrated neck tie mechanism. I'm assuming Cooper's didn't.

It's a reasonable theory, I think. As reasonable as any other theory proposed. There's no way to discount it. I think people have a hard time accepting that it's not going to be possible to prove anything about the money find. The money find can be used to maybe help find Cooper. But the circumstances preclude proving anything. We could know everything about the hydrology in the area from '71 to '80 and it won't prove anything. It still could have been planted or some of the money taken by someone, as you say. I actually like the idea that someone using the alias Dan Cooper, would also be tickled by the idea of planting money at Tina Bar, especially if it could be timed to within a year of Himmelsbach's retirement. But that's just me. (edit) But then I also like the idea of Cooper losing the money, since that might have been a contributor to not getting caught. (no money suspicions).

Just an example of how natural tributaries are not the only water source. Storm drains, or even sewers can contribute. Once you start talking about water movement, the possibilities are pretty endless. 4/19/2005 http://www.clark.wa.gov/news/news-release.asp?pkNewsSeq=574 Sewage contamination found at Frenchman’s Bar Public advised to use caution if using Columbia River beaches Vancouver, WA—Responding to a call from the Washington State Department of Ecology (Ecology), staff from the Clark County Health Department yesterday found numerous accumulations of sewer grease on the shore between the Vancouver Lake flushing channel and the north end of Frenchman's Bar. Vancouver-Clark Parks and Recreation also investigated the beach area and found two syringes, some plastic hygiene products, and other materials associated with sewage releases. Samples of the material have been collected for testing. Ecology and Health Department staff are investigating the possibility of sewage contamination along other areas of the Columbia River while trying to determine the source or sources of the problem. ... On Friday, the city of Camas reported that a clogged city sewer line had resulted in a sewage release into the Columbia River. Although the line was repaired last Friday, the discharge may have taken place over a period of 10 days. A connection between this spill and sewage at Frenchman’s bar has not been determined, but Health Department officials are watching for sewage on downstream beaches.

Thanks for the Vancouver Lake '96 flood photo. I've posted before about the '96 flooding effect from the Caterpillar Island/Columbia River side. Supposedly it flooded up to Lower River Rd. I was focused on Caterpillar Island being covered at that time. There are two Lower River Rds. (one closer to the Columbia, one farther). I'm not sure which one the water level rose to. (edit) I'd still like to know what other junk got dug up during the FBI dig at the Ingram site. Surely it couldn't have been "nothing else"...I'm talking litter.

Not boring to me, Jo. For instance: You confuse me. If Duane was Cooper who cares about 1971-1979. You should only care about 1979 thru 1980? Are you saying there's some data, other than the 1974 dredging, in the 1971-1979 time period, that will help prove Duane threw the money in the river in 1979? You've said Duane threw it in, upriver in the Columbia, in an already decomposed state from being buried, in 1979? It's also unclear why you care about people in houses that got flooded (supposedly) near Tina Bar. What difference would that make to your story, other than maybe highlighting water levels at some point in time?

Jo, if you don't know where the Fazio Bros. Sand Company gets their sand from, I'm really confused about how you can have such strong opinions about data around the money find site. It's like you're only watching one channel. I don't know when they started the Sand Co, but suspect it may have been around the 1974 dredging..or before? (people on the other side of the Columbia started selling sand from dredge spoils on their side also, as a result of that dredging. I have posted about that before). Here's some data from Jack Fazio's obit: Jack Zanobi Fazio died September 3, 2007, at the age of 72, from complications due to lymphoma. Jack was born in Portland, OR, on Jan. 16, 1935, to Antonio (George) and Nancy Fazio. The oldest of seven children, Jack farmed with his father, brothers, and extended family with Columbia Gardens, which was located where the Portland International Airport now sits. In the U.S. Army, he served as a Sergeant Tank Instructor from 1956 to 1958. In the mid 1950's, Jack and his brothers, Albert and Joe, moved to Vancouver, WA to farm property on Lower River Road near Vancouver Lake. Here they raised cabbage, potatoes and livestock. Later, the brothers formed Fazio Brothers Sand Company and were joined by brother, Richard. Jack attended Parkrose Grade School and Central Catholic High School, both in Portland, OR. He was a member of the Central Catholic Oregon State Championship football teams of 1952-1953. He spoke fondly of his days at Central Catholic. He was an avid sports fan and enjoyed going to University of Portland athletic events. In 1956, Jack met Anita Rebagliati from Varazze, Italy. Anita came from the same hometown in Italy as his father. They married at St. Charles Catholic Church, in Portland, in 1959. They would have been married for 48 years this September 26th. In 1960, they had their first child, Anna Marie. Six years later they had Marc Antonio. (edit) photo of jack fazio attached more at http://www.columbian.com/obituaries/obitResults.cfm?date=09/7/2007

There is a very good presentation on the hydrology of Vancouver lake at: http://www.cityofvancouver.us/PublicWorks/vancouverlake/MapsMaterials/ClarkCountyVLWP03162005.pdf interestingly it shows Lake River (the NE outlet) to have bidirectional flow from the Columbia, which I didn't realize. There is good data there, including current pollutants (fecal colliform, PCBs) from page 17 Hydrology is controlled by the stage of the Columbia River April to June- Columbia River rises due to snowmelt, highest water levels mid-June; flow in Lake River is typically south into the lake June to July - lake level drops rapidly; flow in Lake River is to the north carrying water away from the lake July to November - Lake remains at a low level; flow in Lake River reverses daily. page 16 October - Lowest lake and tributary levels; Lake river reverses daily due to tidal fluctuations November to February - level level rises to intermediate levels as BBC and SC flows increase rapidly; Lake River reverses flow for days at a time January - Tributary flows peak in January and lake water is dominated by flows other than the Columbia River. page 11 notes extensive stormwater drainage from the NE and could be examined for alternate flow paths if so inclined (Salmon Creek Watershed) Ron Wierenga is the author (Clark County Public Works) (edit) another quick overview, which also mentions the dredge/channel work that was done at Vancouver Lake in late '70s/early '80s http://www.clark.wa.gov/water-resources/documents/Stream%20Health%20Report/Vancouver%20Lake.pdf

One problem I have when we discuss stuff with regard to the money find, is that we all act like we know how river debris acts and how silt covers. From what I've read, I think we as a group know nothing in that area. I've attached a picture of what I think of when I think river debris. (other than floating wood/branches) Also: here's some interesting info: I've been trying to find data on trash in rivers. Here's one interesting set of info that's related. Beach Debris Data from the Ocean Conservancy. Aggregate snapshot of cleanup efforts of 380,000 volunteers in over 75 countries picking up stuff on ocean beaches. http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pjhtZL6VSrXyIvsofEzr5Pw Shotgun shells are more common than you would think. And I've discovered that the decomposition lifetime of cigarette butts is actually a lot shorter than I thought. (cellulose acetate filters). Newspaper is not shown in the spreadsheet at that site, although other places seem to say newspaper can be common. Nice article focusing on cigarette butt litter here: http://www.longwood.edu/cleanva/ciglitterarticle.htm

I'm throwing this out based on Jo's comments. It's possible that the max lifetime of any garbage on Tina Bar within 2" of the surface is less than 1 year. I don't know. It's possible it's more than that. I don't know. So somehow one can form an opinion. There may be things unique to Tina Bar that affect this: cattle traffic, people traffic, water erosion, yearly dredging by the Fazio Bros. Sand Co. (although I believe they can't deposit spoils on the beach now, because of salmon spawning issues?) There may be litter collection happening now. There may or may not have been in '71-'80. The opinion may vary depending on the type of garbage: metal, wood, paper, food, plastic.

That's true. My grandfather was a farmer, and what little I know of cows is because of that. However, do farmers understand money decomposition in sand? Somehow you've decided that the most important fact here is water levels, in the short term. I'm not sure why. I guess because you believe the money would have been easily found, so couldn't have been there long, which is a separate issue from water levels. I'm not sure money 2" under sand is guaranteed to be found in less than a year though. Somehow the state of the money has to be reconciled with farmer's wisdom. We can defer to the farmers if you want. But we don't have to. I'm also wondering if you're implying that all other garbage on Tina Bar within 2" of the surface was found and removed. The money was not much different than garbage. If other garbage was left there, why wouldn't the money be, and be ignored? It wasn't easily recognizable as good stuff.

I am not on Cook's payroll. He is however part of the syndicate, and has a share. In fact we all have a share, including you. Jo, I've been meaning to ask. Did you edit a post of yours recently to remove the words "felt xxx xx" and replace with something else? I'm not sure if my mind is playing tricks on me. We have pictures of the water level soon after 2/10/80 and the dig location. Are you saying that the vertical elevation between the water level and the money find on 2/10/80 is equal to the difference in columbia river height in the two weeks before the money find? Those water heights might be documented and findable. You say Tosaw did this. Is it in Tosaw's book? I have it and will look it up. I don't think it's in there though? I'm not clear why we care about water levels immediately before the money find though. I don't think the decomposition and small bill pieces point us in that short term direction. As you know I've been focused on min-max lifetimes of the money at Tina Bar. I would be more interested in water levels over the previous 1-5 years.

Yes you're exactly right. If you look at the rest of the Cooper crime, you're right that Cooper would never rely on "random chance" like that. How come I didn't realize that? But then again, if it's guaranteed to be found, is it really random chance? One person's random, is another person's guarantee. That's why risk sports are fun. It's the perception of risk by another, that makes it fun, not real risk. Real risk means you die a lot.

uh. read my post. That photo is from www.corbis.com. You can find the caption for the photo there if you want. I reprinted it above. Everything I read/see says that photo was not taken at the money find site. Are you saying you think it's at the money find site? why? (edit) The picture was taken 2/15/80 according to www.corbis.com. By Max Guiterrez. The money was found Feb 10, 1980, so the other money dig photos may have been between those two dates. (the others don't show snow) I suppose it's remotely possible it snowed between 2/10 and 2/15 and maybe they went back to Tina Bar for the photo you show, and they photo'ed somewhere on Tina Bar. But seems doubtful to me? "The area where Brian is digging is approximately the same as to where he found the money." (edit) If the photo was taken 2/15/80 then there would have been a trench where the FBI/students excavated? (actually we don't know when the other money-find dig photos were taken). But then they would have been able to take the photo at the trench. There is no trench in that photo you show. The first news articles about the money find were 2/13/80 (I forget how long the Ingrams delayed before they got to the FBI) So by the 15th, the money find location probably was still blocked off as a crime scene? I just don't think that photo is at Tina Bar

The thing is that you have no way to know if the instruments were in the box when it arrived in the middle of nowhere. That box might have been in someone's garage for months after it was emptied. It might have been sitting anywhere, empty, for god knows how long before you found it. yes that's a good theory. Thinking about the distribution of probable causes, the idea that someone put an empty weather instrument box in the woods, far from a road, could make sense? Maybe they were packing their lunch in it. But I think there were some dates on the box that gave a clue to when it was sent up. So there was probably more info that I've forgotten since then. (edit) for instance, don't remember if balloon remnants were there. Now imagine the odds, if there was some Cooper money in it! or: Imagine the odds that we could actually figure out who Cooper was after 36 years! How can we calculate that!

When I was a kid, out hiking in the middle of nowhere, I found a cardboard box with printing on it that identified it as holding weather balloon instruments, and requesting that if found, they be returned to an address. I was saddened to find that the instruments were already gone, suggesting someone else had already found this thing, in the middle of nowhere...and before the cardboard had fully decomposed! When we discuss astronomical odds, what are the odds that weather balloon instruments (which return to earth randomly) are ever returned? We can actually get data on this, I suspect...i.e. how many are returned, and the delays before they are returned.

hmm. You might read up on how Brinks robbery money was found, if you're confident about causality being obvious. http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/brinks/brinks.htm I've always speculated that if the Brinks robbery was done today, they'd use George Bush masks. Just a guess. (edit) I do agree that one's thinking on what's causal depends on whether you think Cooper lived or died. Pick one or the other and different theories make more sense.

If people are looking at the photos of Brian Ingram on the snow covered "bank" at Sluggo's site, they need to realize those were not taken at the money find site?(I'm fairly certain). I think he was re-enacting the money find for photographers, at the time. Note we have no reports of snow on the riverbank at the money find. Those photos are from www.corbis.com and here is the caption that accompanies them. I have highlighted in bold the important part: Boy Pointing out Mound in the Snow Original caption: Vancouver, Washington: Brian Ingram, 8, uses his hand to show how he smoothed out the sand on Feb. 10, 1980, when he found three bundles of decomposed $20 dollar bills for photographer 2/15. Brian's father turned the money over to the FBI and when it was checked out, it was found to be identical to the money that was payed to hijacker D. B. Cooper on Nov. 24, 1971. The area where Brian is digging is approximately the same as to where he found the money.

why is it astronomical? If it was found at Frenchman's Bar, is the probability the same? Are you saying that any find location is astronomical? Or just specific ones? If it was found at the I-5 crossing of the Columbia, would anything change? Here's another question. Assume I'm Cooper and I want to plant some money such that it looks like I died. Assume I'm smart enough to realize that the FBI will get my LZ area reasonably close, and that they could be lying about how much they really know. Where would you (Cooper) plant the money? Remember it needs to be found before it decomposes away. Also: how much would you plant?