snowmman

did I miss some posts? How did we get to Cooper=thug? I agree we know he was a hijacker, and he took money that wasn't his, so yeah on robber. Is the thuggery the threatened use of a fake bomb? I would call that more terrorism nowadays. Thuggery is a word I would use if he smacked someone with a ballpeen hammer. Why thug?

what the heck are you saying here? The signature looks different than the signature to the left..which it says is the official taking prints. Are there any examples of Duane's signature somewhere? Are you just guessing based on the X? Maybe the official marked an X to show Duane where to sign? Maybe Jo can help out with a signature here...

Well, uhh, actually no. Maybe we could do a poll. well, duh, then no wonder we can't figure out who Cooper is. We need to hire some consultants.

well, Honestly, if I was old man Cooper and reading this thread..I'd be thinking "Hell I can do it again!" I remember when I was younger a shrink asked me once "Do you ever think about planning bank robberies" and I thought Damn, how'd he know. I replied "Doesn't everyone?" I probably should have said "Doesn't everyone at DZ.com?" :)

Good thoughts, 377. So you're thinking it's likely the hijack was the most interesting thing that happened in Cooper's life, if he lived..i.e. biggest rush? Or are you thinking guilt/nervousness?

cool. thanks ckret.

Interesting. So the mass murderer/Cooper profile overlapped? I must misunderstand the profile. What was the profile in '71? I know it has changed to date. Was there just no profile in '71?..i.e. it could be anyone, anything?

I was wondering about anything we might have missed that could apply to the Cooper event. People familar with the parallels between Long Kesh and Gitmo?

Any KC-135 boom operators or anecdotes out there? People chime in with info/applicability? I wanted to maybe show that "loadmaster" sounds good, but there seems to have been other ways to have gained skill/some-knowledge acquisition of similar quality/applicability? (check the photo and read the full post for why) But: I don't think boom operator meshes with future business man attire. Who knows though. Showing bias. Attached photo of refuel, plus a cool c-130 cargo drop just cuz it was kool. info off web: Note parachute training happened regularly. The KC-135 Stratotanker is for aerial refuel. It was another deriviative of the 367-80 (Dash 80) program, as was the 707. Note the refuel boom comes out the rear of the plane. There used to be some kind of escape spoiler for safe parachute exit? The KC-135 crew members were trained to be able to grab/use parachutes for emergencies or some operations. They got annual parachute training. Now apparently they have a harness available for those operations and no parachute. Only recently, the USAF announced that parachutes have been removed from KC-135 operation, because it's statistically safer to stay with the plane. http://www.afrc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123087912 background/McChord connection: The Boeing model 367-80 (Dash 80) was the basic design for the commercial 707 as well as the KC-135A Stratotanker. In 1954, USAF purchased the first 29 of its future fleet of 732. The first of these aircraft left the assembly line at Renton, Wash. July 18, 1956, and flew for the first time August 31, 1956. The Strategic Air Command positioned a squadron of KC-135 tankers at McChord in June 15, 1960. The new unit, 22d Air Refueling Squadron, was an element of the 92d Bombardment Wing (Heavy) based at Fairchild AFB, WA. After a 2 year stay at McChord, the 22nd ARS was deactivated on July 1 1962.

No matter what, the Cooper event directly led to people doing a number of hijacks in 1972, that might not have occurred if it wasn't for the Cooper stunt. So even if Cooper's individual act could be debated, possibly because of mental state, the effect it had, was clearly criminal. Everything each one of us does, has ripple effects, and yes we should all feel some sort of responsibility for them, good and bad.

When I first read the transcripts, I thought it was very clear that Cooper didn't ask for the stairs down on takeoff, and that Flt Ops/crew got into the discussion because they didn't believe in deployment in the air. I always thought that Cooper asked for the aft door open and stairs deployed in flight. I went along with Ckret's insistence that Cooper asked for stairs deployed on takeoff, assuming there must be some other interviews that haven't been released. Then I thought "What if people misremembered on their interviews...what if the transcripts (real time) are actually the best source of data for what Cooper actually asked for" Ckret: can you reference the passage in the transcripts that tells you Cooper asked for stairs deployed on takeoff? My thinking is based on page 11 of the transcripts

Do you have statistics? My dad is in that age group and his computer use capabilities match mine. I have other examples. Why would we care about this particular statistic anyhow? We only need one Cooper. Not 10,000.

This is an interesting theory happythoughts. Although it sounds along the lines of the 377/vanity theory...i.e. paperback book psychology? Can you explain more. I'm wondering if there's a theory about Cooper we can extract. Are you saying he was concerned about how the world perceived him? Otherwise it would be better to be perceived as nuts in case he was caught, right? I didn't really follow your line of thought.

I did good research on boom operators on refuel tankers that I was surprised no one jumped on. You can search back to find what I posted. I couldn't understand why no one responded. So I'm not going to research anything about load masters.

thanks Jo for sharing those new pics. I can imagine it's tough sharing all these details of your private life with Duane.

source: 377 Gotta file every tip 377! sorry about that!

how do you know that?

I was thinking of the perfect revenge. Do something nasty based on inside knowledge shared only between you and your target. Then if you're discovered or suspected, you also might have the "get out jail free card" because there's something about the inside knowledge used the target(s) might not want to reveal.... It might give you enough confidence that you wouldn't worry about disguises and such. And even if you die doing it, it reveals the inside knowledge, which could still enact the revenge even though you're dead. (public embarassment or ???) We've mused how Boeing or NWA would be logical targets for revenge. The targets might be more fuzzy, like Congress/USA in general. We talked about Vietnam War motives, son KIA possibilities... But a nice target would be the entity that destroyed your dream, whatever that might be.

I've been mulling over revenge theories again. I was wondering if the idea of revenge (he mentioned he had a grudge) overwhelmed his logical thinking. ...i.e. number 1 was the grudge, number 2 was success. I know you've pushed the money-only aspect of this hijack. But based on other examples, I think grudge+money is a stronger case here, and could also explain some flaws in logical thinking.

the best would be getting it to Sluggo so he could post on his web site? [any additional logs that show interaction between cooper/crew on slowing the plane down and flaps=30 myth or not]

Sluggo's timeline at his web page has the following in the timeline. "19:44 PST Flt 305 advises they will hold at 7,000 ft. We have the back steps down now and it looks like we aren’t going to be able to climb anymore." I was thinking that there's no way for the crew to know if the back steps are down...They can't tell, there's no indicator other than the aft stair lite which apparently comes on when you crack the door, not when the stairs are down. I didn't find the exact transcript that Sluggo paraphrased above, but I suspect it led to some of the misunderstanding about when stairs were actually usable for jumping, which may also have contributed to getting the jump point wrong.

Ckret: in general don't have any problems with your theory on the jump. But: need a micro-timeline that resolves 1) when the aft lite came on 2) when the interaction was between Cooper and crew for slowing the plane down 3) oscillations 4) bump I agree there would be a learning curve. I'm wondering about the exact time of 2) I don't think we know that yet? Also, when they slowed down, did they change the flaps to 30? this has been an unresolved myth. I'm curious about the delay between 2) and 3)

I was curious about the specialized training mentioned for tree landings, and looked at the 2008 Interagency Smokejumper Training Guides. http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/av_library/sj_guide/index.html this pdf covers tree landings http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/av_library/sj_guide/10_parachute_manipulation.pdf They recommend keeping the hands on the toggles rather than protecting armpits as mentioned before. Does the recommended tree landing technique differ depending on the canopy used? g. Timber landings 1. If a tree landing is unavoidable, hands must be kept on toggles. Landing with brakes on should be accomplished by rotating hands and elbows into the body while still holding toggles. Keep hands and elbows in to prevent grabbing for limbs or injuring elbow. 2. Make sure you are going to land securely by aiming at a point 15 feet from the top of the tree. This will allow the canopy to cover the tree and avoid a poor hang up. 3. If a tree landing is imminent, don’t try to avoid the tree by maneuvering around it. This has caused many injuries to smokejumpers as the canopy collapses as it snags on branches rather than capping the top of the tree. 4. Once secure, communicate to your jump partner and to the aircraft, if possible.

Attached are some graphs showing weather data over the year (last year?) from Orchards, WA. from http://www.city-data.com/city/Orchards-Washington.html It's interesting, because it helps set the baseline for what might be considered normal weather. In the past we've debated "why didn't Cooper abort due to bad weather" Well, bad weather is a subjective perception. I think we have to understand the background normal to understand what Cooper might be considered bad (and predicted "better" at some alternate future date, if aborted on 11/24/71) I think these graphs help that.

there could be a little bit of arrogance...."Just fly it like this and I'll get out of it and survive" We've been focused on whether a preplanned flight path is needed for success, based on our perceptions of what we might want if we did the hijack/jump. Cooper may not have perceived it the same way. Either thru arrogance (anywhere and I'll get it done) or lack of experience. Other things seem to confirm the lack of jump experience...so maybe it was this combination of arrogance and lack of jump experience, leading to no worries about the DZ. Is there a reason it's obvious Cooper should have been stressed about the DZ, given predictions about his jump experience? I don't think so. Reasonably close to a city would seem to be the only hard requirement.