snowmman

Its a moot point. He didnt have a reserve. I think it's moot, but because you have to look at the average height of trees in the new predicted DZ. It's not like up in Ariel. Humans can drop 20 ft without injury, if done right. I don't think any "risk due to tree" theory holds water? Maybe people have some experience landing in trees. If you land in a 40-50 ft tree with a deployed 28' round, what's the typical distance to ground for your feet? I would think you're not going to catch up near the top. So a 20 ft (or less) drop should be doable. Basically, I don't see the risk that's being raised here?

you're posing a question that can't be answered. You can't observe Cooper's actions that night and know Cooper. I'm surprised people get frustrated by this. It makes me wonder why people think they could understand Cooper solely based on the events of that night? Isn't that an even more insane proposition? I think we're on the same page here, yet isn't that exactly what you and Sluggo have been trying to do? Hey I'm not even FBI and I can answer that. The goal is to understand things Cooper did/said/behaved enough to help find him. You might be able to know Cooper more after you find him. Even that might be difficult. But the goal is not to know Cooper based solely on the events. The goal is to find him. Confirm thru other means. Dismiss if wrong. Repeat. When people start introducing the dufus theories or genius theories...I'm not sure why it aids in finding him. But maybe I'm missing something. I think of skills displayed/required/not required. etc. Does that mean I need to know Cooper? Nope.

you're posing a question that can't be answered. You can't observe Cooper's actions that night and know Cooper. I'm surprised people get frustrated by this. It makes me wonder why people think they could understand Cooper solely based on the events of that night? Isn't that an even more insane proposition?

by Orchard? are you sure? I thought that was the wind up by Ariel. I was assuming down by Orchard it would be more like the PDX winds. I suppose the Orchard winds have been posted before, but I've lost track. The winds posted by Ckret were for Orchard. And that isn't too different from the PDX winds is it? I have never seen a wind direction from PDX that night only wind speeds. For PDX, I posted wind information averaged over '61-'90, to help give a high probability guess at the PDX wind direction that night. We had a discussion how it was high probablity, given the measured speeds, and rain/storm, that it was SE I also published an NOAA weather map that showed S for the day at PDX on 11/24/71

I love how a couple months back, it was rare to have people engage in discussion assuming Cooper was a rational actor. Now the most minute aspects of his behavior are examined and required to have a rational explanation. It's interesting. Why now, but not back then?

by Orchard? are you sure? I thought that was the wind up by Ariel. I was assuming down by Orchard it would be more like the PDX winds. I suppose the Orchard winds have been posted before, but I've lost track.

He didn't tell them "Don't crash the plane" either. Maybe he didn't tell them because it was obvious they would take V23. i.e. it didn't even occur to him that he needed to spell it out.

a line of thought along Nuke's lines: If Cooper demands V-23, then they know he wants/needs V-23, and the possibility exists that they make up a reason why they can't take V-23...then it becomes a battle of wits with Cooper arguing he knows more than them and they can take V-23. Look at the stupid arguments about the stair deployment, refuel time etc. If you tell people what you want, they they have leverage. Don't give people leverage and you're more in control. If they didn't give him V-23, he might give up. I still say the more important question is what did he have to lose. If Cooper had said "fly below 10,000, with gear and flaps down, oh and hey I see my previous two requirements dictate you should take V-23 so please fly V-23... Then it becomes very difficult to say that he did not have aviation experience or at the minimum spent significantly more effort planning things than what people thought. I guess my thought is if you planned the route knowing that there is a 99% chance your demands will lead to V-23, why blow the ambiguity it and say fly V-23. I understand demanding V-23 guarantees the route, which seems like an important step for someone planning a specific jump, but I am still of the opinion that he basically did demand V-23. Whether he knew he did or not is a different story.

1) I don't see why you mention Orchards-Hockinson, given SE(?) winds? Seems to be the wrong side of the flight path. Assuming you meant Hockinson? 2) As a corollary to this theorem, are you saying the money bag didn't fall into the Columbia then? It's almost 6 miles from Orchards to the Columbia. I don't see any hydrology I'd fall in love with that would transport it to the Ingram site. Basically I don't understand your predicted search area. Can you explain why you picked that area? (edit) Ah, did you leave yourself an out: in 1972? If that was on purpose. it's still odd because of wind direction. Also what would be your 1980 search site?

Sluggo: I thought there was some discussion in the transcripts of changing the flap/wheel configuration after Cooper had jumped. (which would be a prediction) Do we know that the flap/wheel configuration was consistent thru the flight, so that the fuel burns mentioned were consistent thru the flight? I don't think we do?

We know the answer to this, the flight crew was going to take Cooper out over the coast, the crew made no reference to V23 until they were directed to that flight path. Could Cooper have known they would be directed to that flight path? Why were they directed to that flight path?

Complete knowledge never exists for any technology humans use. Example: do you know everything that happens when you hit "Post Reply" ? Does it matter?

I think there's too much theorizing about the flight path, because the theorizing may not include all variables..subtle tells and knobs that might not be predictable by everyone. The best way to determine if the flight path would be predictable by Cooper, based on the interactions between Cooper and crew, would be to create a script and enact it with a number of different flight crews, and see what flight path they take. Cooper might have known things about how flight crews think in certain situations. If they all take the same flight path, then the flight path was predictable. But if different flight paths are chosen, we're not done... Cooper may have responded if he detected a cue that would lead to other than V23. If the cues told him V23 was likely, he did nothing, so no extra information. We don't know if a non-V23 flight path would have been detected and corrected, with more interaction, by Cooper. I think people are posing a question that can't be answered. It can be guessed at, with some confidence level. (edit) Don't understand the focus on wanting to know "dumb luck" vs "planned". I tihnk those two phrases mean nothing for the question, for the reasons outlined above.

Very nice job. Question: It looks like you're labeling the time still with the 20:04 time missing, so times after that are wrong by 1 minute Wouldn't it make sense to fix that? otherwise when you reference a time after 20:03, it's not clear if you're talking real time, or the error time? Is there general agreement on the 20:04 mistake now? or no?

But baseball is no good unless we're sure about the truth behind all the steroid questions. Baseball is important, it holds the US together, in its own little way.

We've mentioned this before, but some new images from http://pagesperso-orange.fr/francejohn/dc_page1.htm attached. I always wondered if maybe Dan Cooper was a nickname or maybe just a dreamy thing...child or adult. It's quite amazing that 36 years would go by without this comic book thing in the case file. Washington is quite close to Canada. If indeed Cooper had this mental connection, you would think someone in the FBI or someone they talked to, might make the same mental connection. I mean thousands of people were thinking about this thing right? Click thru the attached

http://nymag.com/news/features/39593/index5.html ” But what about a lone employee? Himmelsbach ruled this out too. “If you were acquainted as I was with many of the people in the airline industry,” he explained, “they are exceptional people. They are head and shoulders above the standards and the values and the character of normal, average Americans.”

Could Cooper have known they might try to go high to make him woozy, and prefer sitting under the oxygen tanks that Ckret said he knew were there? In case he needed them?

In a 727, the Oxygen Masks deploy and O-2 flow starts at a cabin pressure equivalent to 14,000 ft. Didn't you read my post from this morning? Sluggo I'm confused now. I thought we were told they might have ascended above 10,000 ft to try to get Cooper woozy. The transcripts reports them saying 15,000 ft at one point? We thought that was a typo, right? But did we hear that they went to 12,000? What's the real max altitude they went to? Is it on the flight recorder?

Well, right now snowmman is reading to us from a 1968 Parade magazine that was used as packing material. No. it was purchased from a newspaper collector. It is pristine. Not packing material. The article is available thru Google News, if you subscribe to the NewspaperArchie. 30 day subscriptions are relatively cheap

Do the oxygen masks automatically deploy in a 727 at some low air pressure level? Does anyone know this?

no, i just "moved along". He had a picture of himself on his web site/blog. Classic Texan big handlebar mustache. I figure retired sheriff or something. I just said "sorry". Actually if I remember correctly, it was from when you were talking about memes of all things. He was talking about memes on his blog.

like I said, it was in Parade magazine, 1968. I read a lot. Weird, with ebay you can get a copy of a 40 year old newspaper insert. I love it! Why do you ask?

I was curious about what 377 might be related to. Scouring the net, I found an email address and fired off an email...I guess it was the wrong 377..this was his response: "No, sorry. The phrase, "Sluggo_monster" has no meaning to me.. As to the numerals, "377," the only significance in my mind and memory is for U. S. Highway 377, which runs generally northward through Central and North Texas. I have spent many hours on that road, both for business and pleasure. I once participated in an exchange of gunfire on that highway. The outcome was favorable to me: There were no lasting injuries and two went to prison. I never gave any thought to any numerological significance of that number or series of numerals, but then, I don't care about that stuff unless it resembles a birthday or the like. I must admit, you have me curious. Can you tell me why you asked?"

"There is nothing in xxx xxx's appearance to distinguish him as the glamor boy of commercial aviation. Although some would describe him as darkly handsome, he is not a man who would stand out in a crowd. He is average in size and weight, modest in manner. With his briefcase under his arm and his ten-acre place in the outlying suburbs, he could easily pass as an insurance executive. But on closer inspection, he is hardly the sedentary Mr. Average Rotarian. He keeps two horses and two motorcycles, which he rides with dash and daring. He flies big jets to maintain his skills and pilots small private planes for fun. He speaks conservatively but thinks of the far reaches of the universe" This was written by Jack Anderson.