snowmman

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/02/57434 But the Defense Department, which distributed millions of amphetamine tablets to troops during World War II, Vietnam and the Gulf War, soldiers on, insisting that they are not only harmless but beneficial. In a news conference held in connection with Schmidt and Umbach's Article 32 hearing, Dr. Pete Demitry, an Air Force physician and a pilot, claimed that the "Air Force has used (Dexedrine) safely for 60 years" with "no known speed-related mishaps." ... The Air Force claims amphetamine use is strictly voluntary. To substantiate this, Air Force spokespeople note that the "informed consent" form signed by pilots who receive Dexedrine mentions the voluntary nature of the program no fewer than seven times. However, the form also notes that the pilot can be grounded for exercising his right not to imbibe.

If true, then that is an interesting piece of information. That could easily show amphetamine use. So everything goes back to someone owing another a large sum of money. With out fail it seems like if someone uses amphetamines they have at least one other hard core drug they'll use. Things can compound quickly. Too bad Tina wasn't a DRE. hmm that's interesting AggieDave...good thinking. My first reaction was that I was amazed that Cooper would think that the pilots would take any pills he would give them. I mean that's insane. On the other hand, I was wondering if Cooper was showing his hand a little here, showing he knew what would be okay for the pilots. They could have just been caffeine pills? Do commercial or military pilots ever take any up pills? I'm pretty sure I've read accounts of military pilots. (edit) Dexedrine, say, by pilots in Iraq?. Maybe people can fill in some detail here. There was an account where Tina actually got scared when Cooper was mad about the fuel trucks. He was pounding his fist and saying Dammit etc. There's an exchange where supposedly they told him the nozzle had frozen on one fuel truck, and he was yelling that wasn't possible in Seattle. If he had taken some ups, he might have gotten a little edgy? I suppose anyone might question the idea of a frozen nozzle, but the way it's written in the book, it seems to be yet another of the things that might reflect "inside" aviation knowledge.

Dan Sowa, Northwest's Chief Meteorologist From the Soderlind article. It's possible this could be the name that was redacted from the LZ prediction map that Sluggo got from Ckret, if the two guys were both at Northwest at the same time. (edit) info from the article makes it sound like right time frame "Paul and his partner, Northwest's Chief Meteorologist Dan Sowa, for the Turbulence Plot program they developed in 1965."

From Tosaw's book, this was the contact in Minneapolis..he evidentally had opinions about the stairs on takeoff, and did calcs for the distance? with the flaps like Cooper wanted? Paul A. Soderlind 1923 - 2001 He was apparently quite the expert. Really great article here: http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/182945-1.html nice pic of him attached (in the pilots seat? or what?) summary details from other article: Montana native Paul Soderlind received his private license on his 18th birthday. At age 19 he went to work for Northwest Airlines as an instrument instructor and flew in the Northern Region during World War II. He joined the Navy in 1944 and flew with Naval Air Transport Command. Soderlind returned to Northwest after the war and developed many safety procedures. He eventually became director of technical flight operations, a unit that plans cockpit procedures. He and Don Sowa produced Northwest’s Turbulence Plot Program to detect wind shear and other high altitude turbulence.

The wind direction was apparently different up by Lake Merwin. We're still not in agreement about winds down by the new LZ. Ckret has posted some stuff about battleground but I'm not sure of it's accuracy? I've posted surface wind stuff at PDX. Sluggo says surface wind doesn't matter. So we need to get in agreement on the winds at the new LZ and where the data came from. We've never agreed. I know I believe in winds from the SE as most probable by the new DZ. I'd like to see the source of other's data.

I had been led to believe that Tosaw's book had enough errors to be part of the mythology. But now that I'm reading it, and confirming sections of it with things Ckret has said, I think it potentially has some interesting details that we could discuss. I was amazed when Ckret released the memo confirming the flaps were changed to 30 degrees. Tosaw says this also. Tosaw says that when the flaps were at 30, the speed went from 170 knots to 145 knots (167mph) Has anyone else read Tosaw's book.? There are certain things in there that I'd like to clear up as myth or fact. If they are indeed fact, it would help us I think. For instance, there is some detail about Cooper cursing. He said "Dammit" while the fuel trucks were stalling. Himmelsbach seems to have taken this to extremes. But now you can see what it was no big deal to the stewardesses. It wasn't heavy swearing. There's some detail about Cooper opening and inspecting the chutes. Some detail about him cinching the straps on the rig after he put it on. here's an interesting one: "Tina told Cooper that she was concerned about the crew getting tired on the long trip, but Cooper told her, "Don't worry, I've got some pills that will keep them awake". Would be nice to walk thru the interesting paragraphs and dissect them as true or not. From what I'm reading, I'm believing Tosaw. He interviewed people firsthand. There's an interesting theory that Cooper may have specified flaps at 15 degrees because he could verify that from the windows. If he just specified an air speed, he wouldn't be able to verify that. Interesting theory. I suspect "Paul Soderlind" was the good old Joe at Minneapolis Central that I've been wondering about?

It's extremely rare to find pictures of Anderson, and even more so to find a picture of Alice Hancock. Here's a photo of the whole crew. It's from the Tosaw book.

I'm not going to pay to read the article, but combined with the whole Himmelsbach retirement incident this is rather curious. Can you elaborate on the other discrepancies snowmman? oh I posted most of the article above, there wasn't much. Things I noted that were incorrect (or new) 1) Scott quoted Cooper as giving a much longer response at 2005 than just "No"...he has Cooper saying "Yeah, everything is fine,'' Cooper replied. 2) Scott says the "tip" episode happened when Mucklow saw the huge pile of money. In other places we're told it's when Cooper was showing Mucklow how heavy the bag was... The article implies Mucklow is looking at a big stack of money, when the "tip" thing happens...i.e. After cutting up a parachute, he emptied the sack of loot and began stuffing $20 bills into his makeshift waist pack. When Mucklow expressed astonishment at the huge pile of money, Cooper reached over and handed her a stack of bills. "We can't take tips,'' she said. 3) The information about turbulence being the reason Scott tried to contact Cooper on the PA (for the apparent 2005 exchange) is new. I've never heard turbulence being the reason before. In fact, this turbulence thing is weird. We were told about a "curtsy" or adjustment of trim needed. We all thought this was caused by the stairs. But now we're hearing about air turbulence. I'm inclined to believe Scott here. But it seems like new info to me. Thoughts on this? She joined Scott and the co-pilot in the cockpit. Later, the plane ran into turbulence. Scott wondered if Cooper was still aboard. Turning on the public address system, he inquired, ``Is everything all right, sir?'' ``Yeah, everything is fine,'' Cooper replied. After a while, Scott noticed that the cabin gauges were fluctuating wildly. 4) Scott seems to make it seem like he's flying the plane in this article? Did we ever settle that question? 5) The article references the "7 below" myth, without mentioning it's Celsius, but I think that was just the reporter erring. 6) The reporter says Cooper ordered Scott to drop the rear steps. I don't think that happened? I thought the stairs were lowerable from the back..so the cockpit didn't have to do anything? 7) The article says cooper asked for used $20 bills 8) the whole improvised waist pack story seems like Scott is saying some stuff that's not exactly correct.

hah! it was just a test. The real story, obvious from the responses, is that Anderson was chosen because he had no useful testimony during the flight. Obviously you wouldn't put Rataczak or Scott on the re-enactment flight..they might reveal the Conspiracy. The Conspiracy Lives! obligatory star trek quote "It's difficult to work in groups when you're omnipotent." (Q, "Deja Q") I also want to work in a Leeroy Jenkins reference at some point, but was discouraged by the lack of recognition of previous obscure references...but on the up side, that means there's lots of potential progress!

I believe it was Anderson who was on the re-enactment flight. If Scott was listened to anymore than the others it was probably to due with seniority more than anything. AH! I knew I got it wrong. I wonder if Anderson had a discussion afterwards with Rataczak and Scott about the pressure bump. It's odd that Scott seemed to like the Lake Merwin story. I wonder if he just got snookered into the oscillations=jump theory early on? You would have thought they would all of gotten together to discuss the pressure bump after Anderson flew on the plane for the test flight.

Jo that's what the article said. (edit) I updated the post above so you can see where the news article came from. Don't make more of it than it is I'm assuming Scott misspoke. Scott didn't see anything. I partly posted that to show that what georger said about witnesses changing their stores in the future, seems to be true. Although I was thinking about the comment Tina apparently made about "knapsack around his waist" ..and Ckret's comment about Cooper apparently trying to use the chest packs as money containers. In the end, I think ckret's story is right about the money bag plus rope. I just posted the news article, well because it was out there. Note there are a few other things in there that are kinda wrong from Scott too. I was wondering if they paid more attention to Scott's Lake Merwin theory then they should have. Also: Scott wasn't on the re-enactment of the pressure bump. Bill R. was? So I'm thinking there could be reasons why Bill R. wasn't listened to as much as Scott?

The new LZ is just 10 miles from PDX. The I5 bridge there has towers that are 240 ft tall. pretty visible. You could walk 10 miles that night and be in downtown Portland, and get most anywhere you want by the next morning. You could have new clothes and fly to the East coast. This skulking about business is for the movies. The key is to act normal, I think. (edit) ground view of towers attached

Jo mentioned her suite101 postings. A quick way to reference them is to copy the following into your google search site:suite101.com homes4ubyjo homes4ubyjo is what Jo used for a moniker there. roughly the 2002-2006 era. I doubt there's any info there, that hasn't been republished here though. I do have one question: Jo: at suite101 you said: " I have researched this subject for over 6 yrs and have spoke 100's of conversations with Mr. Himmelsbach" I can't imagine Ralph talking to you for 100's of conversations. He was retired at the time. Why would he talk to you that much? In another post at DZ.com you say (post 3343) I had been asked to write down everything I could remember about the trip by Doug Pasternak and Himmelsbach had told me to keep notes about people who contacted me and what I remembered. " Why would a retired agent ask you to keep notes about people who contacted you? Did he mean recently? or back when Duane was alive or ??? (edit) But Duane was dead when you talked to H...

I found this news article about a talk Scott gave in 1997 to a local Aero club where he lived. (edit) It's the first news article at this search http://news.google.com/archivesearch?hl=en&ned=&q=scott+makeshift+waist+pack&ie=UTF-8 I bolded some interesting things. Scott talks about a makeshift waist pack, with money being transferred to it from the original bag. He wouldn't have seen this. So he's interpreting from something. Tina? This would be interesting if there's any truth to it, as it might mean the money arrived on the ground in something other than the bank bag? He also mentions that turbulence triggered his exchange with Cooper at 2005? So that's interesting. Note Scott seemed to like the Lake Merwin LZ idea. Maybe they listened to Scott more than Rataczak? One who was there tells intriguing tales of DB Cooper Arizona Daily Star - NewsBank - Jan 21, 1997 After a quarter of a century, D.B. Cooper still packs the house. Well, to be precise, it was actually pilot William Scott's recent talk at the Aero Club of Arizona - an organization for aviation enthusiasts - that pulled in a standing-room-only crowd. The Aero Club, which has about 100 members in the Tucson and Green Valley area, presents speakers on everything from the Civil Air Patrol to aerobatic flying. .. When they reached Seattle, they flew in a holding pattern until Cooper's demands were met. Scott didn't tell the plane's 36 passengers what was happening. ``But I think they got the message when the stewardess came down the aisle with a parachute over her shoulder,'' he added, cracking up the audience. When the plane landed in Seattle, Cooper released the passengers and two of the stewardesses, collected the loot and the three extra parachutes and told Scott to fly to Mexico. They were to stop in Reno, Nev., to refuel. ``I was happy he negotiated over the phone through Tina (Mucklow, the stewardess),'' Scott said. Once Cooper got his sack of money, he ordered Scott to fly as low and slowly as possible and drop the back steps. After cutting up a parachute, he emptied the sack of loot and began stuffing $20 bills into his makeshift waist pack. When Mucklow expressed astonishment at the huge pile of money, Cooper reached over and handed her a stack of bills. ``We can't take tips,'' she said. Instructing Mucklow to go forward, he told her to pull the curtain between the first class and coach sections. He said that she was to turn the lights down, and she wasn't to look back. She joined Scott and the co-pilot in the cockpit. Later, the plane ran into turbulence. Scott wondered if Cooper was still aboard. Turning on the public address system, he inquired, ``Is everything all right, sir?'' ``Yeah, everything is fine,'' Cooper replied. After a while, Scott noticed that the cabin gauges were fluctuating wildly. ``I thought maybe I'd call him, but I thought maybe I'd just not bother him,'' he said. In Reno, Scott managed to land the plane with the steps down without damaging aircraft. Before leaving the plane, he and the crew searched for Cooper's briefcase but were unable to find it. Cooper had jumped in a business suit and street shoes from the plane, which was traveling about 190 miles an hour at 10,000 feet. At that altitude the temperature was 7 below zero. Cooper - with 20 pounds of money strapped to his waist - had dropped into some of the most rugged country in the Pacific Northwest. ``There was a big reservoir down there with trees in it,'' Scott said. ``I just thought he went down there and got wrapped up in the trees.''

Have his phone number if Ckret wants it. Still flying his own private plane apparently. He's only 69 or so? I think Sluggo was trying to get me to call him.. "you call him" "no you call him" "i'm not going to call him, you call him"... "I know, let's get Ckret to call him, he'll call anybody"

I was musing about how Cooper might have stashed the canopy on landing, if he didn't go back to retrieve it. And its never been reported found. He would have wanted to hide it a little, just to make sure no one was immediately on his tail while he was making his ground escape. Here's the weird thing: How did that canopy that was found in April, up near Amboy, stay hidden so long? From the final press reports, they were implying it was a deployed canopy used on some specific case in the area way back when, which is hard to believe. I can understand if the canopy wasn't deployed, and it somehow got buried. But it doesn't make sense that a deployed canopy somehow got buried where someone recently did some grading? Maybe it was hand-bunched and stashed? I mean, if that canopy was deployed and hidden, then Cooper's could easily have been the same way and never been found? Similar area in '71 (farmer's fields). Arguably his body too, but again, I'm assuming he pulled ok.

the simplest explanation? Cooper wasn't a jumper. He didn't own a rig? If he had bought a rig, that would have left an evidence trail? (that's why I'm buying my NB6 w/28' canopy off ebay thru an intermediary! ;) In '71, how easy/hard would it have been to get a rig if you weren't a jumper? it would have to be a personal rig? a stolen rig (say from military) might be noticed post-hijack and point to you? (edit) also it would have to be packed? if you weren't a jumper, getting a good packed rig might be difficult? you wouldn't want to pack it yourself?

I'm always interested in the full background of everything in this case, to help understand how people might look at things. I think I posted the NYT article before, but apparently Himmelsbach was a WWII fighter pilot. (P-40) here's the google news snippet. Agent to Give Up 8-Year Hunt for Hijacker; Mandatory Retirement ... New York Times - Feb 22, 1980 After the plane was hijacked, Mr. Himmelsbach, a P-40 fighter pilot in World War II who was assigned most F.B.I. cases here dealing with aviation because ... (edit) full article from NYT attached. Note this article also incorrectly (I think) puts H. in a helicopter trying to intercept 305 that night. I think? we agree that the helicopter that night was National Guard and flown by the two pilots previously named? And that H. wasn't in a heli till the next night. Be nice if Ckret could confirm those details. (edit) What's weird is there's a quote there where it sounds like Himmelsbach is saying he WAS in the helicoptor that night. I'm very confused about this issue. (edit) I love the use of the quote "morally certain" in the article.

I'm all for a good splash theory for Cooper. I agree with georger that Rat.'s testimony is the strongest thing here. In terms of probability, the surface area of the river vs land area seems to say splash LZ is "less likely" and the predicted jump time vs radar doesn't seem to have Columbia be a high probability LZ..or as you say Rat.'s testimony...It also requires Cooper to no-pull. I'm not really sure why Cooper would no-pull. We've been thru that, and it seems to me probability favors pull, even with no experience. (or little). But maybe the various facts could be aligned for a splash theory...(or mud theory). What little I've read about the Columbia seems to favor body recovery if Cooper splashed though...so even a splash theory can be iffy. It would help solve the money issue, although I still have a hard time with a 8-1/2 year canvas bag, somehow making it to Tina Bar post '74....although maybe it got covered by something for a while, or was buried in the water? i.e. cold columbia water may have acted like a refrigerator? So I dunno. I guess we've beat that to death already... So yeah, that's another alternative. Just put together a splash theory. The data is fuzzy enough that one probably couldn't disprove it. But it would have to be a splash down where the flight path crosses the columbia...not up by Tina Bar. The money to Tina Bar is problematic, but again it wouldn't be provable that it's "impossible". Sluggo's pretty much right. We've run out of things to discuss. I have found some world war II oral history references where air force vets used the phraseology "chest chute" and "back chute" ....the ball-turret gunners got chest chutes. They had to leave them off to operate the guns apparently. Here's a page from a book that documents the parachute training the poor guys got.....(attached) I was also wondering about the request for two chest chutes. Maybe Cooper knew the money wouldn't fit in one, and he was planning on stuffing it in two chest containers...but abandoned the plan when d-rings were missing on the NB-6 harness. (edit) Hey, he might have even asked for two back chutes because he knew some didn't have the D-rings? and he wanted to increase the odds of being able to use the chest containers? ...Long shot.

It seems like Cooper got away with this one, to me. Does it really matter now, anyhow? I was thinking what might be the best solution..well obviously it's to rig things up so Duane=Cooper. Everyone will be happy. What's wrong with giving Jo a little pleasure? We don't really need any evidence, and Duane doesn't really need any skills, other than claiming to be Cooper. Sure he's got this guilty past of hidden identity, and probably a lot of psycho reasons to fantasize about being Cooper, but let's ignore that. Duane looks like a wussbag, and everytime I see his photo, I can't help but thinking I could kick his ass, so he doesn't really fit the Cooper image I would like, but what the heck...you take what you can get. I think the only thing in our way is the DNA and fingerprint stuff. So if we can agree that either the DNA is bad or the fingerprints aren't Coopers, or that they didn't get Duane's DNA, then we're done. Rather than focusing on the stuff we've been focusing on, let's focus on making Duane = Cooper. Doesn't matter if it's true or not, but it might be something we can accomplish. (edit) Alternate goals to Sluggo's IPIN: there's always the precedent for claiming FBI was involved in a coverup, and we go straight to congressional investigation. This would trump anything Jo has tried to do with her story. So you could pick that as a goal: putting together a good FBI coverup story. We could do a plausible one.

georger: Yeah, probably take 8:15, and draw a big area around a predicted LZ, taking into account enough error bounds, and just say "that's it" You never know. If the FBI suddenly said in the press: "Hey we were wrong about Ariel/Amboy..all you people down here though, does anyone remember something? Assume Cooper lived, there was a canopy..a guy doing stuff at night"...If the FBI did that, some information might come out of the LZ area? Some old farmers there might remember something. If it was 1972, you could probably interview enough people in the area there and find someone who remembered something. I think in '71-'72, that it sounds like all the "interest" was focused up north..so heavy interviewing probably wasn't done in the right area. Dogs barking at something at night, etc. That kind of thing. Probably impossible to get new info this long after '71.

I think you overstate this Jo. They wouldn't have a good description. Cooper could talk his way thru anything. The goal would be to move fast, not hang around for days trying to be secret agent man. Remember it's okay if 3 days later someone says "I remember that guy" ...as long as you're far away and no one knows where you went. ...it doesn't matter that people see you..only if they stop you. You get out by the next day, and you're hundreds of miles away before searches are organized with good description. There's no way a "hang around and do all sorts of stuff" kind of plan makes sense.

I'm still all confused about cooper expecting to get the money in a knapsack. So his apparent plan was to be on the ground with the money in a knapsack.. Either in Seattle area or Portland area. Either way, it would seem to make him stick out. Maybe the knapsack was just part of the money container plan during the jump. If so, maybe knapsack meant he was going to be more comfortable with stashing it on the ground, rather than running around wearing a knapsack in a business suit.. Or maybe he had a partner he'd call? Or maybe he just didn't have a ground plan at all and was going to wing it. A "wing it" plan is more likely to be "head for the nearest town by thumb or ???" I think...i.e. nothing brilliant/stealthy..just get somewhere fast and talk your way thru it?

glad you didn't abandon us georger. (edit) good point on the angle of approach to Portland I will admit, that if Cooper needs to get around stealthily, walking the tracks makes a lot of sense. Especially at night. I was thinking about ckret's theory that the planned DZ was more towards Seattle. If so, then maybe there was no car to retrieve at PDX...although it's unclear how Cooper got to PDX initially. So then the goal is to get back to Seattle...after an unplanned DZ. The thing is, if you're hopping trains, it's going to be freight trains, not passenger trains. I guess Seattle's not so far, so just getting on a train going North might get you to Seattle. But it doesn't seem like a plan someone in a business suit would try. Cooper seemed unfazed with disgusing himself during the hijack. Would he care about someone noticing him on the road or on public transportation? I'm still thinking he'd stash the money, and retrieve? If the DZ was unplanned, it's unlikely Cooper would know where the tracks went? If you drop into a unpredicted DZ, I think it's more likely that you make your way to a town and take your chances with making it thru without being detected. Even if they notice you, hopefully you're gone before anyone connects the dots and detains you. I've hitchhiked a lot in the past. Longest was from Wyoming to New York. Only 3-4 days, something like 28 rides. Speed is your friend. The most likely thing that comes to mind for me, is not worrying a lot about detection, but just sticking out your thumb, and being able to give a good story to whoever picks you up...Remember Cooper is a master at manipulating the audience right? So why would he abandon that skill on the ground? Hitchhike somewhere, and then quickly get on public transportation.

???????????????? I don't understand this statement. Sluggo_Monster In order to compute the drift lines (canopy and freefall) you need to know air speed, and altitude and wind. So when they mention they used that data, I'm assuming it's just for the drift lines. Remember way back I couldn't understand how the radar data could be "fine tuned" with flight recorder info? Back when we just knew all this info was used? So I'm just saying (guessing) that the radar info wasn't "adjusted" in any way based on flight recorder info. If it was, we might question the accuracy of said adjustment. But in reading the report, I'm guessing that it wasn't.