snowmman

Hi Jo. I am totally confused by your post. Some of CI is higher, Some isn't. Are you talking about elevation or lat/long? Why are we talking about Caterpillar Island anyhow? Are you talking about lat/long? Are you saying the money find was not North of Caterpillar Island?

I did. I was waiting for Jo to go ballistic about bundles in metal cans..Was waiting for it so I could talk about how silly her Nigerian 419 story, I mean Duane waiting till a business trip in '79 to retrieve cached bills after 8 years and then send them down the Columbia in a paper bag whose glue and paper doesn't come apart until just the right moment and wait, then the bills are found yet a 2nd time, after luckily getting covered with some sand too! I'm actually more intrigued about people willing to believe Jo's float story, than the actual story. It also made me post the questions about the 3 black bills. And plastic 5 gallon buckets. Hey, it also made me think that the money was guaranteed to be damp when Cooper landed (rain). And that Cooper was probably wet and had muddy feet (landed in fields). If he PLF'ed he probably got mud on his clothes? bundles on the beach Random coin flipping thinking, says that 3 random bundles on the beach, likely wouldn't all land face up? The 2/12/80 photo seems to show us that the money was packaged with all face sides of the bills facing the same way. So if the black is only on the back sides of the bills, (edit) and maybe only 3?, and rust marks maybe also? that's interesting..it suggests human alignment to me...i.e. I'm guessing humans would stack bundles face up. You want proof? I've attached a photo from Cooper's cellar. (he was a busy guy over the years) Look at the way the bundles are oriented (face up) Also attached some other money bundle photos. It's interesting to think about how oxygen gets to the edges of bundled bills. (microbe action)

Isn't that the geology professor? background from sluggo's site who knows if FBI ever consulted hydrologists? * Dr. Leonard Palmer of Portland State University concluded that the dredging operation in 1974 did not put the money onto the beach, because the bills were found above clay deposits put on the banks by the dredge. [AP Release 02-14-1980] * Leonard A. Palmer, emeritus associate professor of geology, died 31 December 2001 in Seattle following a 3.5-year bout with pancreatic cancer. [A Tribute to Leonard Palmer, PhD. From http://geology.pdx.edu/files/Emeriti/Palmer/index.html

Isn't this just the sketch Jo had made? She previously told us she had a sketch. I don't know why she didn't label her post accurately. Maybe just trying to be funny?

Hey, SCPLF. welcome back. Are you proposing a dredging solution? I'm not sure of the order you suspect: human then natural, or natural then human. Or do you have two proposals?

two things to help show I'm more insane than the magnetism folks. I've researched 5 gallon plastic buckets. A lot. Very interesting technology. I wish I invented them. Apparently it was the Ropers (brothers?). Patent filed in '68, issued in '70. The Ropak Corporation started with this technology, and claims the founders (Ropers?) were commercially distributing the solution in '68. Unclear how widely. The ribs on the top of the pail, and the sealing mechanism, were the solution that were great for the problem. The Ropers (3 bros?) outline the technical issues on the first page of their patent. I'm totally impressed by how their solution is still in use, widely, 38 years later. See attachments. The common availability in 1971 of now-standard 5-gallon plastic buckets, with their well-known resealable tight lid technology, is probably still a question mark. Also, that post I made about the Boeing flight test engineer and his son seems to check out. I got some email back. His dad was evidently a guy who was peer-recognized(Googleable). Flight test engineer at Boeing. retired now. Apparently 76 years old. Interesting that apparently two guys were sent into Boeing that night to retrieve data on flying a 727 with the stairs down? So the data may have existed in the flight test group? Or did they do calcs that night? Not sure if the guy will email me more info, but his dad could be an interesting contact for Ckret. (edit) A 1987 article about the Ropers and what spurred their invention Roper family bucket brigade Ropak's founding brothers find a fortune in plastic pails May 24, 1987 Byline: Jonathan Lansner The Orange County Register The Roper family's plastic-pail business got off on the wrong surface. It was 20 years ago when William Roper and two of his brothers were trying to expand their East Los Angeles plastic molding shop into a new field -- industrial plastic containers with plastic tops. Previously, plastic pails were topped with metal covers, which limited their use. To pass a federal sturdiness test, the buckets had to survive a fall from a four-foot loading dock.

In Texas Hold 'Em, the 3 cards that are first turned up are called "the flop". It'd be interesting if those 3 black bills are black on both sides are not. And if the black ones are all the back side of the bills. Although the lighting on the photos is bad, I believe the bill with the apparent rust stains is one of the 3 "black" bills under different (brighter) lighting. Is that true?

Jo, I think you shouldn't guess without looking at the photos. The trenches were not parallel to the shore. They were perpendicular to the shore. See the pictures. Hey Jo, I actually have some side questions for you: -The 1980 DUI arrest, were you a passenger with Duane? How was that arrest resolved? conviction/fine/license suspension or ?? -The 1976 DUI. Was a gun found in the car? Did you know about this DUI in 1980? I'm a little fuzzy on some of these facts, so it'd be good to correct me.

That's an interesting question cause I was just looking at that. I have a marine chart of the Columbia, from 1975. It has two interesting things. Shilapoo Lake is shown as having water (in addition to flood lines). I thought it was drained and diked in the '20?s (not exactly sure) It has pumps to keep the water out, although there is supposedly surface water in the winter. Additionally, it shows the Caterpillar Slough area as all filled in. (edit) on 1975 topos it's referred to as tidal flats. What's interesting is looking at the channel depths, comparing right next to Caterpillar Island (shallows?) and right next to Tina Bar (deeper?). I had to reduce the resolution to get them small enough to post, but two pictures attached. Here's the rub: even though the maps are 1975, I think the data they're based on may be as old as mid-50s. I can post the link to the whole chart. It's 15+mbytes. (it's from NOAA). So I'm still looking wrt your questions. But these two maps are interesting.

Have this guy's name. trying to email him. odd. at the very least it'd be interesting if his dad really did have to go back to work to check air speeds. another question is how much did FBI interview Boeing employees looking for Cooper at the time? If this guy really had a suspicion, and he was in flight test you would think his suspect would be on the list from back then? Could be a bogus post, but it kinda sounds ok. Will see. Most people don't know about the questions around how slow it could fly that night. quote follows: MY dad worked at BOEING at the time.He just got home from work,and we where getting ready to leave for Yakima for thankgiving MY dad was in flight test.He and his work partner had to go back to work to get data to see how slow the plan could fly with the door down... MY dad at one time thought DB-Cooper may have worked in his dept. there was guy who was strange and new a lot about the 727

Bunch of random comments Bills: The 3 all black bills [Sluggo] are interesting. One might guess they were the bills on the bottom of the 3 bundles. None of the tops we see in the photo taken on 2/12/80 are that black. But supposedly the bill-picking process between FBI and Brian, after the 6 year court battle was "you pick one, then I pick one". Hard to believe FBI got stuck with the only 3 black bills? Unless they were being nice to Brian and picked bad ones. I'm also wondering if maybe the FBI storage wasn't so good and discoloring happened afterwards? Note all the brown staining on the cardboard. It almost looks like "stuff" leached off the bills while in the folded cardboard. I wonder if maybe they were still damp or something? trash thru dredges I've got some good info on trash going thru dredges. It happens. The cutter heads are designed to limit the size of material to avoid jamming the impeller in the pumps, which is the real constraint. Modern dredge pumps can be designed to pass rocks at 50% of the pipe diameter..Amazing. 25% more typical. Trash like plastic, wood, sticks, glass, cable get passed thru hydraulic dredges. It's a problem in some areas and they have to use additional equipment to remove trash from the dredge spoils before they distribute the dredge spoils. Depending on the size of the hydraulic dredge used in '74, I've got some trash-thru-dredge photos that make me think a money bag could have gone thru and left some bundles okay. But that doesn't really solve anything. Still have a "how money got in columbia problem" Water Paths Burnt Bridge Creek looks like a more promising interior waterway path back in 1975, from around our new LZ area. Goes to Vancouver Lake. But no one believes in transport from Vancouver Lake to Tina Bar. Sounds like no one believes any option works, yet people don't want to believe in human plant. human plant I was looking at "choices" for a human plant. Assume you want sand, human traffic, ease of auto access. Starting at Vancouver, Frenchman's Bar, then Tina's Bar seem like first choices. Frenchman's probably had more human traffic though? Also, if human plant, I'm wondering if Vancouver resident more likely. Cooper the driver Re the "20 minutes to McChord" from Seatac. It's just about exactly 25 miles to get just to the earliest point you can consider McChord. It's farther if you have to go inside. Speed limit was 75mph on I5 then (you take I5 the whole way). So maybe if you were going 80mph (typical?) it would be a 20 minute journey. (it's really more like 28 1/2 so maybe 85 mph?) I was wondering if that meant Cooper drove a car or motorcycle on I5 there. Maybe he got some speeding tickets in the 5-10 years before 1971 in that area.

Our understanding of the behavior of buried money seems pretty limited. Here's a newspaper article that speaks to direct experience for wet money in a pvc pipe without ends, buried. It sticks together and is hard to separate. These were buried for only (edit) only a matter of weeks? So the stick-togetherness of the Ingram bundles, I think doesn't tell us anything. http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-11462096_ITM A little money advice: Don't bury it in your back yard. Source: Sarasota Herald Tribune Publication Date: 18-FEB-01 [snip] The next lesson comes from my own family's story: If you do bury it, make sure it's in a watertight container. Yes, my father once buried more than $30,000 in the back yard. We all learned what a mistake that was. My dad and his business partner buried the money to hide it from his partner's soon-to-be ex-wife. They figured she didn't deserve the profits of their hard work, and instead of letting a judge decide, they took matters, and a shovel, into their own hands. In 1999 they stuffed $100 bills into some PVC pipe and buried it in the back yard. It was just before Hurricane Floyd hit our corner of Virginia, dumping more than 2 feet of rain and causing floods that lasted for weeks, covering the rooftops of some low-lying homes. A few weeks after the rains finally subsided, my dad and his buddy went to check on their money. They hadn't put a lid on either end of the pipe, meaning that for weeks sand, water and gravel -- the perfect cement mix -- had run through that money. By the time they got it out of the pipe, there was no way to pull the money apart. My stepmother tried everything. She washed it in the sink, peeling back layer after layer of the bills only to have them crumble in her hands. She even tried nuking it in the microwave -- a trick my father had heard about. What he didn't know was that every bill has a little bit of metal in it, so sparks flew through the microwave, and the family was out a microwave, too. For days my stepmother, my teen-age sisters and I sat around the table trying to salvage what we could of that money. We pulled it apart, wrote down serial numbers from the bills and brought some of the damaged money to the bank, where it was replaced with fresh new bills. We were able to salvage a third of the money. It's about all my dad would have gotten had the ex-wife gotten her share. Instead, he had to split that one-third -- with his partner and the ex-wife.

Yes. Looking at the Corbis photo that has 12 bundles. We see 11 with face pictures, one with a visible back. (also: the top view AP photo helps a little for judging the relative whiteness of some of the tops..not all 12 bundles in that photo though) Since the bundles were split from the original 3, we should only see 3 face pictures that are "darker" or more weathered than the others. The two bundles on the right seem darker, more weathered, and may be tops of the original bundles. So maybe those can be used for estimating the deterioration from the original top. The rest of the tops seem whiter and probably were interior to the original 3 bundles. Also: there is a rumor/myth that of the 3 bundles, 2 were in rubber bands, and the third was thinner with no rubber band. I think Ckret has said all 3 had rubber bands. Be nice to clear up this myth. Also: Since the auction house has pieced together new bills, we should increase the count of actual bills found? Since we know the bundles were random sized, I don't know if that helps us though.

I would also note, that in terms of today's evidence handling, the scene on 2/12/80 at fbi hq was kind of odd. Himmelsbach apparently laid out the found money for the press on 2/12/80, immediately after the FBI received it? Although there is plastic on the table, note no one is wearing gloves (although it's a bit late I suppose because of the Ingram handling) In my mind, it tends to confirm the mindset around the handling of the dig. They really weren't looking for evidence. The case was basically already closed by this point. A key new question I have, is when the bills got rounded off? I had always assumed the edges decomposed to nothing before the find. Now I'm thinking they went brittle, and broke off on handling. However if they were mostly rounded already when the Ingrams found them, that would be interesting. So I'm kind of thinking that ALL of the decomposition happened at the find site. There's also quite a number of academic studies online about cellulose decomposition in various soils and sand. I've noticed they use cotton strips to measure the rate at which microbes decompose things. (they're mostly interested in fertility of the soil). As expected, warmth and moisture accelerate decomposition. I'm wondering if there is no such thing a "wet" decomposition, unless you're talking about something falling apart. The "wet" simply accelerates microbial action. "dry" would be similar, just slower? I'm wondering if all of the decomposition could have happened in just 1 year at that wet location, with brittle edges removed by Ingram handling. Also, some of the staining could have happened post-find. If you look at the brittle edges on that one bundle (previous post)..it's unclear how those edges would be preserved, yet the others get rounded, if there was decomposition and movement of the bundles by water. I would think they all would be rounded if that happened.

Most of the money photos we've analyzed were taken 28 years after the find. And after the money has been separated from the bundles. Ckret could probably provide us photos that the FBI took in Feb 1980 of the bundles, but this post summarizes all we have so far. I initially thought the nymag photo was faked, since the money was so different than what I had seen before. But I've since validated it. You can see a known good serial: H27412938A, plus the 12 bundle layout matches the known ingram+himmelsbach fbi photo taken 2/12/80. So the bundle pictures were taken Feb 12, 1980, two days after the Ingram find on Feb 10. It was taken at FBI hq, when the money was laid out. We've seen the other photo with the Ingrams and Himmelsbach standing around the 12 bundles. This photo led the nymag christiansen article, and is in the Corbis archives. The Ingrams took the 3 found bundles and brought them home in a plastic bread bag. They separated them into 12 bundles in their kitchen and dried them. They may have washed them off, since there is no sand visible, and the bundles were wet when found. In the second picture there is a closeup where on the left you can see the brittle edges on one bundle. This is new and we should ponder it. I've been wondering about why most of the bills have been rounded off. I think it's obvious that the brittle edges fell off very easily. See the "crumbs" on the table. We don't know if the Ingrams might have broke off all brittle edges before they delivered them to the FBI. (washing?) or if the brittle edges were all missing as shown, on the beach. Since at least one edge of one bundle still has the brittle edges, I'm thinking that more did, and they broke off in handling before the FBI got them. Also notice the relative flatness of the bundles. The 3rd photo is from AP, and is a top shot of the same layout of 12 bundles. Not as good a photo. The 4th photo is a new photo of the Tena Bar dig site. You can see that the dig was not a very controlled operation. Notice the backhoe. This is a new photo. I've also included the two more "genteel" photos of the dig we've seen before. I think these were before the backhoe came in. I've also included a topo map from 1975 that we've seen before. But you can see a small inlet cut into the shore just above the money find, that's not present in more curren maps. I think this little inlet is visible in the money dig photo where you can look North. I was always curious about that and was wondering if we have the money find site wrong. I've been trying to use what appears to be the river beacon in one of the tina bar dig photos, to more precisely locate the money find on the topo map, along with making sure it looks like the shoreline going N on the topo map from 1975. I have two questions: 1) There were two trenches dug at Tena Bar. Why? 2) There were reports, including a Himmelsbach quote of additional fragments recovered during the dig. If so, how deep were they? (edit) I've added an already shown picture of the professor in the trench. You can see he's also on the right of the backhoe photo. (edit) I would also note that the dig photos seem to not agree with any current description from Brian, as being in an area that was "recently wet". Although that's from a recent Ckret interview, I think the photos say that's not true. The find seems to have been on the sloped bank. Ckret can provide info from 1980, maybe. But I'm not sure we should believe the recent Ingram interview?

I'm laughing at you Sluggo. The sun came up today. That's why I don't read anything anymore. I think what's best for us all is to just stay inside and not read anything. The FBI can wiretap as they please and all the answers will come in the mail. The FBI data has the answers and that's all we need. I'm surprised you need "truth" validated by someone else before it enters your brain, Sluggo. There is just one way to an answer, and you know the way Sluggo? Lead on then! ps. I'm done. I had a good time with you folks. Thanks. hey Ckret. I had one thought when I saw you in the recent shootout photo "See I told you needed to watch Heat for the 300th time...I like to think it helped you keep your head together during the event...JOKE!"

Time Magazine Jan 24, 1972 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,905652,00.html The sky was slate gray. Snow, which had fallen a few nights before, had turned to slush. About 50 people, some with small children, waited patiently for more than an hour in front of a former supermarket at 23rd and Madison in Seattle's shabby central area. When the doors opened at 10 a.m., the people entered quickly and filled shopping carts with free surplus food—dry beans, scrambled-egg mix and a score of other items. Hundreds of other Seattle residents followed, collecting an allotment of 40 Ibs. per person. In less than a week, workers at the store distributed 125,000 Ibs. of food. Two weeks later, 220,000 lbs. of food had been given away. Thus the first of three free-food distribution centers in the Seattle area opened just before the New Year; five more will be opened later. The food was supplied by the U.S. Department of Agriculture after more than five months of pressure from Washington Senators Warren Magnuson and Henry ("Scoop") Jackson, who had urged that federal food surpluses be sent to Seattle to feed the city's hungry. People on welfare, those collecting Social Security benefits and most of the 30,500 who exhausted their unemployment benefits are eligible for free food under the new program. Hunger became a problem in Seattle almost two years ago, when the city's economy began to falter because of the layoff of 63,000 workers at Boeing, Seattle's largest employer. An ailing forest-products industry added to the problem, and the result was an unemployment rate of about 12% at the start of 1972. Of the 1,400,000 people living in the three-county area in and around Seattle, 72,500 were out of work. [snip] Seattle will need more than free food. While much of the rest of the country is beginning to feel the end of the recession, and unemployment is leveling off in many areas, Seattle has not yet shared in this trend. Some 90,000 in the state may get 13 more weeks of aid through the Extension of Unemployment Benefits Act signed by President Nixon in December. Nixon's approval of the space-shuttle development project (TIME, Jan. 17) also could improve the city's employment outlook if Boeing gets a healthy portion of the contracts to be awarded this summer. The 38,000 workers still at Boeing were somewhat upset when the Pay Board rejected a proposed 12% pay increase for aerospace workers and then voted to limit the first year raise to 8.3%. Although some Boeing employees fired off protest letters and telegrams to the President, most admitted that they were happy they still had jobs to go to. In Seattle, that is all that matters.

I had been casting about, trying to guess at what kind of dredges where used in '74. (edit) NOTE that at the bottom, pipeline dredging is referenced as an open water method (spoils end in open water)..So Tosaw's claim of it being used to dredge to shore seems incorrect. We do know the dredge spoils ended on shore. Maybe some variant of pipeline dredging was used. ALTHOUGH Ckret's description of a bladed head on the dredger, seems to match pipeline dredging. Maybe it was deposited to a barge though or to shore? Tosaw was the first reference that identified "Pipeline Dredges" which was new to me. So I've been researching that. Pretty interesting. Tosaw describes pipeline dredging pretty well, i.e. the pipes going to shore. Here they say they can go 4000 to 5000 ft. But I guess they can move the pipelines as they go, since they're on barges. Note that here, they say the maximum diameter is 30" (Tosaw said 36") They say the minimum diameter is 8" So Tosaw may have spun it to a large size. Maybe a smaller diameter was used by Tena Bar. from http://www.columbiaestuary.org/dmmp/appendixA.html Pipeline Dredges Pipeline dredges are commonly used in larger dredging projects such as navigation channel maintenance by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers or port development and maintenance. Generally, pipeline dredges are used for either large cutline shoals or areas with multiple sandwave shoals. Pipeline dredges usually consist of a large centrifugal pump mounted on a non-propelled, specially designed barge. The bottom materials are then pumped up through a large diameter suction pipe to the barge, and then to the disposal area through a pipeline. The dredging end of the suction pipe is equipped with a revolving cutter-head that breaks up the bottom for easier transport. The pipeline is floated on pontoons, extending as far as 4,000 to 5,000 feet to the disposal site. Greater piping distances can be attained through the use of booster pumps. The major limitation of pipeline dredging is that the disposal areas must be relatively close to the dredging site. The main advantage is the ability to dredge a large volume of material in a short period of time. Pipeline dredges are typically classified by the diameter of their discharge pipeline. Dredges available in the Pacific Northwest range from a minimum size of 8 inches to a maximum of 30 inches. Pumping distance and production capability of the pipeline dredges is directly related to pipeline diameter; larger diameter yields greater discharge distances and higher production capability. Diagram attached from http: //www.mgs.md.gov/coastal/dredge/sedstudy.html also from there: Two different methods are generally used to dredge and transport sediments from channels to open-water sites: (1) hydraulic cutterhead suction dredge with transfer of the sediments via a connecting pipeline; and (2) clamshell bucket dredge with transfer of the sediments via towed bottom-release scows. Each produces a distinctly different deposit. Hydraulic dredging creates a slurry of sediment and water which is pumped through a pipeline to a basin-like depression in proximity to the channel. The majority of the sediment settles to the bottom where it spreads outward under the force of gravity and tends to fill the basin. The clamshell dredge scoops sediments relatively intact into waiting scows which are then towed to the designated area and release the sediment onto the bottom. This method usually produces positive relief features in the placement area.

We can't look at what gear they own today. There is apparently new gear from '81 and '83 http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dredge-hopper.htm The Yaquina was designed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and constructed by the Norfolk Shipbuilding and Dry-dock Corporation of Norfolk, Virginia, in 1981. Delivered to Portland District in 1981, the Yaquina helps to maintain the entrance bars and harbors on the California, Oregon and Washington coasts. Because of its size, the Yaquina is particularly well suited for dredging the smaller, shallow coastal entrances. The Yaquina is automated for operations with an unattended engine room and semiautomatic dragarm handling system. Sophisticated instrumentation allows constant production monitoring and enables the dredge crew to maintain maximum dredging efficiency 24 hours a day. The dredge normally works continuously, tying up eight hours or less per week for fuel, water, supplies and maintenance. There are two crews of 20 each, working an 8-day-on/6-day-off schedule, with both crew working the day shift on tie-up day. The Dredge Essayons is the latest dredge to be built for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Delivered to the Portland District in 1983, the Essayons helps to maintain the entrance bars and harbors on the coasts of California, Oregon, Hawaii and Alaska. Because of its size and dredging depth, the Essayons is automated for operation with an unattended engine room and semiautomatic dragarm handling system. Sophisticated instrumentation allows constant production monitoring and enables the dredge crew to maintain maximum dredging efficiency 24 hours a day. The Essayons is also equipped for direct pumpout. Two crews of 23 each are assigned to the vessel. They work alternately, one week on and one week off.

Thinking that cooper was employed, and then maybe was part of the huge masses that got unemployed in the Seattle in that period, it might be reasonable to say that Cooper was collecting unemployment checks in some period before the hijacking, maybe in the main aviation related cities (Seattle, Bellevue, Renton, Tacoma, Redmond). Too late to do anything now I guess, but it might have been nice to have agents visit all places where you would have filed claims for unemployment, looking for people that fit the description.

REPLY> That is interesting. Why would he think he could fool anyone on that!? This paints the same portrait Ckret has pushed namely: 'had enough superficial knowledge to be dangerous'. (but also stupid in the face of technical people). I wont get into the techgnical aspects of this but Cooper is basically describing a situation that would be dangerous even for himself ... no bomb control. If this is true it could be very telling ... (and almost a relief!). Does anyone know exactly what frequency and mode we are talking about here? I believe Ckret is confirming that this should go in the myth bucket: i.e. no FBI interview confirmation of it. (edit) oh ps: Tosaw said the flares/dynamite had black tape on them. I've not heard of that before, although it would seem necessary. Loose sticks of dynamite/flares would seem to be a pain in the briefcase? Maybe it would tell us something if ckret confirms if there was black tape?

Apparently it was both sides. The sand from the OR side went to that side, the sand from the WA side went to the Fazios. The only info I was able to dredge up was the indirect reference to the cubic yards dumped on the Reeder ranch on the other side. I already posted that a while back... I exchanged email with the guy who owns the Reeder RV place there (and Reeder beach) and he confirmed that it was his aunt and that sand had been dumped there. But I have no detail about where in the river they dredged, or how far up or down river. Tosaw quotes numbers for the cubic yards dumped on the Fazio side, in Oct. '74. The Reeder side referenced Aug. '74 as the dredge time, with a similar, but not exactly the same number of cubic yards of material. (by Army Corps of Engineers) I had a thought that dredging in that area, meant sediment deposited, making the channel less deep. That would mean the river flow slowed, dropping sediment. Maybe because the river was going from narrow to wide there? Not sure why there needed dredging. What about other places (which is what you imply, I think.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300239738338&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=RSS:B:SRCH:US:104 interesting story about an FBI agent's son (retired teacher) buying an Ingram bill 20 years ago from the Ingram family, for his father, who is now dead. So he's selling the bill on ebay. It's a weird story. At first I thought someone who bought a bill might be lying and reselling it with a good story. Says it was brought to the auction recently, and authenticated and put in a PCGS archival holder like the rest of the auctioned bills. Has pictures at the ebay url. The location of the bill is listed as Sallisaw, OK Now I don't have to tell all you Cooper experts why that town/state jumps out at you right? It's where the Ingram clan was originally from, and where they returned after the couple of years in WA. I think maybe Brian's grandma still there? (Brian and maybe others eventually went to AR) Brian went back to Sallisaw to go to high school, after they left WA. Attended high school in Sallisaw 1986-1990 So the story of the teacher having Brian's younger brother in class might make sense. I guess I didn't realize Brian had a younger brother. The dates make sense. Brian got the money after a 6? year court case?

sluggo: you've already documented the rigger's card thing as myth. Since we've gotten some confirmation as some of the other Tosaw things I've posted are "myth", maybe be worth putting some short things on your site, to get this down...so people in the future don't regurgitate the same stuff. ...some of the dredge damage stuff, the pills, the fuel truck nozzle freeze, the "hands on the wire inside the briefcase" scenario, the salute, the inspecting of the chute...the fast rig up? Actually we don't know how smoothly Cooper rigged up, do we? Is there any interview detail on the Cooper rig up? smooth/clumsy? cinching straps? (ckret) Hey I just ordered the Norjak book..Look out for more inflicted pain-via-post when it arrives!

We've bickered about this before, so I'm just going to summarize. I'm not disagreeing/nor need any more but: 1) The clay layer was not the whole dredge spoil layer, right? The dredge spoils were part clay, part sand. So the money could have been thrown up in the sand layer. I thought there was >30" of dredge spoils, total The clay layer was not that thick. So Tosaw wasn't saying the money was under the dredge spoils. He was saying it was "in it"..i.e. above the clay part of the spoils. 2) I know your interview with the dredge operator said "no way" without damage. So I'll take that as fact (I did a long time ago..just wanted to post Tosaw's detail) Okay that's real good to hear from you. It's one of the confusing things. I've noted before that there's a long trail of confusing emotional-sounding statements from Himmelsbach. I'll just lump this in as one of them.