snowmman

Okay, so the IR map shows that Vancouver Lake has warm water, compared to the Columbia. Are you just testing our sleuthiness or ??? confirmed by this report: "Vancouver Lake is very warm and does not exhibit widespread oxygen depletion." (page 5) Surface temperatures in summer of 77 degrees. Talks about bluegreen algae growth. Volunteer Monitoring Report Summary from 2004 http://www.clark.wa.gov/water-resources/documents/Monitoring/volmon/VanLake%20data%20summary%202004.pdf This is another nice report. Page 3 confirms the bidirectional flow of Lake River also.

Do you have a name for who told you that? What you're saying doesn't make sense to me, Jo. I'm not looking at any maps when I try to find out the flow behaviors of Lake River. I have already quoted a Clark County employee, Ron Wierenga, on the bidirectional flow of Lake River, which is seasonal. I had quoted the specific months it reverses, based on this County public works guy's powerpoint. Also note that the flushing channel was created at Vancouver Lake, in '79-'81. I don't believe that affected the Lake River behavior though. But we are interested in pre-flushing-channel behavior, to be absolutely certain. If you prefer "locals" as somehow being more informed, then I'll quote the Rosemere Neighborhood Association, which lobbied about flushing channel issues at Vancouver Lake. This organization has filed lawsuits against the city on Environmental matters, so can be considered informed, I think. A press release where they were complaining about stuff: http://www.rosemerena.org/release.php?page=flushing "There were a number of design flaws with the implementation of the flushing channel: 1) Engineers did not account for the backflow action of Salmon Creek as it reversed course and flowed back into Vancouver Lake, causing additional contamination from other creeks. The Backflushing of Salmon Creek was never factored into the hydrological assessment regarding the workings of the flushing channel, despite the fact that Lewis (of the Lewis and Clark team) recorded a 30"-36" tidal influence in Vancouver Lake due to backflow from Salmon Creek. Lake River, another tributary of Vancouver Lake, can also reverse flow in this same manner. As a result of the backflow, Vancouver Lake becomes the depository for contaminants from all of the following: Lake River, Whipple Creek, Flume Creek, Salmon Creek, and Gee Creek. Lake River then flows into the Columbia River near Bachelor Island." In addition, this url http://www.cityofvancouver.us/PublicWorks/vancouverlake/Meetings/VLWP031605Meeting.pdf on page 4 has the minutes where Ron presented a Vancouver Lake watershed report to a 3/18/06 meeting. Ron apparently showed a diagram from a 1971 WSU report that showed hydrology prior to the flushing channel. So I looked for this 1971 info in the powerpoint we have from Ron. The minutes on page 5 also have the testimony from Ron at that meeting about Lake River's seasonal flow reversal. I have attached the graphic from page 18 of Ron's report, where he showed a picture from the 1971 Bhagat and Orsborn WSU report. It shows bidirectional arrows on Lake River. ("B" in the graphic). This is before the flushing channel was implemented in '79-'81. I have the exact reference for the Bhagat and Orsborn 1971 paper here. Ron probably has a copy. Bhagat, S. K., and Orsborn, J. F., 1971, Water quantity and quality studies of Vancouver Lake, Washington: Washington State University Publication, Pullman, Washington Bhagat also did a 1968 paper at WSU that might have some interesting stuff also: Hydroclimatic Studies of Vancouver Lake. 1968. S. Bhagat and W. Funk Two other questions Jo: You initially said "plastic" paint bucket. Your recent post seems to hedge that a bit. Why did you say plastic paint bucket before? If you said it before, why hedge now? Also: you mentioned highway 17 in WA before when you were talking about maps and atlases. Can you clarify why you were on highway 17, why you remember that, and why you remember Duane talking about missing a turn? That sounds totally bizarre to me, to remember that minor a detail. And I'm curious about 17.

I'm thinking the exact year is not important. (although I suspect the satellite image is

Yes, the FBI guy is allowed to be funny sometimes! :) I picture you walking thru the sea of cubicles to get coffee in the morning, and all your straight-laced buds asking "so what's up with the Cooper thing" and in your mind you want to start blabbering about Sluggo_monster and snowmman and Safecrack, and you wisely hesitate and mumble "Oh...nothing".

I admit this is a bit of a stretch... This photo is current GE just S of Tina Bar. I labelled the Lat/Long so you can find it in GE I think the bright white spots could be garbage? This is interesting to me, because I thought if the money "landed" at Tina Bar from the Columbia, it should be a natural garbage collection spot. It may be. See photo. Also note how high up the beach the apparent garbage is.

from current GE (attached) mostly big logs. Just background for Ckret's snag/raft theory

Hi Jo. I'm not exactly sure what you think we're confused about. We know all the places perfectly. Are you asking about the Salmon Creek to Tina Bar theory? I've attached a jpg from current Google Earth showing a path. What exactly is Himmelsbach going to be able to tell us? It would actually be pretty interesting to ask him some questions, if he'll return your calls. I'm not exactly sure what might be interesting to ask him though. It is interesting that the money was found relatively close to a parking area, now that you mention it. On the one hand you say it's an obscure area...on the other hand there's a parking area and gate right there! It's not like you have to walk very far from your car to get there.

attached jpg from http://www.clark.wa.gov/water-resources/documents/Monitoring/maps/Map%20A_LISP%20stations.pdf When you look at Salmon Creek hydrology, remember that Lake River at Vancouver Lake has bidirectional flow (noted earlier...depends on Columbia River stage) (edit) nice page on current programs around Salmon Creek http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/tmdl/SalmonCr/SalmonCr.html

ok this is for georger. I thought he was kind of prodding things this way. I'm wondering why he didn't call it out..feel like he's setting me up :) If you like the idea of flooding and getting across the Shilapoo Lake/pasture/farmland area from the Lake River area, to Tina Bar, then the obvious tributary is Salmon Creek, which is listed as being part of the drainage basin for Vancouver Lake. The interesting thing about Salmon Creek is it provides a path from the Brush Prairie and Battleground area. (see attached, then consult your favorite map) That Vancouver Lake hydrology presentation quotes 100,000 acre-ft of water per year from Salmon Creek, which is quite a lot. I attached the watershed detail from that powerpoint. I think a hydrologist might point here, if we said we wanted the money bag to fall off around Battleground/Brush Prairie, and make it to Tina Bar, with the low velocity water flow that's dear to georger's heart. And take 7-1/2 years to do it. ..i.e. need high water levels. (edit) added another jpg that shows the bigger watershed picture. (edit) taken from http://www.cityofvancouver.us/PublicWorks/vancouverlake/MapsMaterials/ClarkCountyVLWP03162005.pdf which has been posted before

good find ltdiver I thought this sentence was interesting "In some cases, portions of as many as four notes were stuck together due to their apparent long exposure to water and various weather conditions. " I mean, they're speculating about the long exposure, but hey, they're touching the bills and we're not..so maybe the difficulty in separating them does give us some hints as too how long they were out in the water/weather. Note at least they use the caveat "apparent" ...so even they're not sure they were out there for 7-1/2 years, I guess? They also mention sand “One of the partially crumpled notes we closely examined still had grains of sand embedded in it from the Columbia River shoreline where Brian Ingram found the cash near Vancouver, Washington in 1980,” said Laura A. Kessler, PCGS Currency Vice President."

REPLY> I read the high at 74 not 76/77. See attached. And this was for the Salem station not Portland. I looked for similar data and a graph for Vancouver but just ran out of time looking - . ah you're correct..I didn't look closely enough. weird the '74 dredging occured that year. For completeness, I've attached the court case that incidentally documented the August '74 dumping of 175,000 cubic yards of sand on the opposite side of the Columbia River. I've referred to this before. (page 2, top of column 2) (the court case by itself is curiously interesting also!) So I don't know if the high water levels in '74 in the williamette were after the dredging at the Fazios. They might have been.

will be gone for the next 3 days. dogs!

Jo I'm posting this for you. This is a picture of US currency that has decomposed inside a paint can. I'm not sure how much dampness was involved or a time period. But you can easily see that money rots/stains in different ways depending on environment. With absolutely no knowledge, you've decided your paint can theory is tightly correlated to the condition of the Ingram money. Take one look at this picture, and if you're sensible, you've got to say to yourself "Hmm..I actually have no idea how money decomposes in a can". I know I don't. I know enough to know there's no way you could know. Here at "the salt pit" we bury all sorts of things!

yeah, look back at post 2034 to get all the photos. I was interested in reading that Vancouver Lake had high fecal coliform levels. One of the reasons they built the "flushing channel" in later years from the lake to the columbia was to improve the water quality. My random guess is that the bills don't show any contamination by manure or other fecal wastes. But I don't know. It would be interesting if so. But the two things I just noticed: purple on front correlated to green to yellow fade on back, and purple on the un-inked paper surface, seem interesting to me. And it appears the front green ink didn't fade, while the back did (on individual bills). I've read about different ink compositions, so a specialist might have insight there...I've read the ink maybe changes slightly with different batches. Also, I'm surprised by the integrity of the edges, even though decomposed. I was wondering if the bills might have had their edges "brushed" or "picked" clean for display by the Ingrams. So a equally detailed photo of the FBI bills is probably needed, just in case the Ingram bills were "detailed" for auction in any way. I doubt they did any chemical treatment or washing, since numismatics don't like that...they like it untreated.

Jo you must have missed post 2034 when I posted more photos of the Ingram bills originally. In any case, I don't agree with your conclusions. I'm also curious whether 5 gallon plastic paint cans were in use in 1971..it's not clear based on some quick newspaper scans. Not sure. If you're talking 1 gallon plastic paint cans, that's EXTREMELY unlikely in 1971. And why would there only be 3 bundles tossed or saved in that paint can? I don't believe bills in that bad of shape, would have gone down the columbia and landed at tina bar, relatively flat and still in their bundles. Also, the rubber bands were in such bad shape, they would have had to gone from relatively okay shape when you said Duane threw them in, to really bad shape by the Feb discovery. Remember they were intact, but crumbled upon touch at Tina Bar. I just can't buy the idea of Duane throwing decomposed bundles in the Columbia and having them arrive in the found state at Tena Bar...even with a paper bag protecting them. I can believe he threw a paper bag in the Columbia and watched it float. Lots of people litter that way. So what. Jo, there are lots of money theories. Yours is one, and is weak in my mind compared to others. You seem to think the old Washougal theory is the only other theory other than yours, and yours is better than that, so yours is right. Even your paint can decomposition theory is just one decomposition theory. You should be able to name 5 theories, rather than just going on and on about one. Like I've said before, you're only watching one channel. Saying that that bill is the first time you've seen it, confirms my thinking that you don't really look for evidence. You look for things to grasp onto, with a predetermined theory. I'm also surprised you might not understand that you could be part of the problem in getting this thing solved, not part of the solution. Also note that I reply to you just because I feel like it. It means nothing about whether I support anything you say. Sounds rough, but that's the truth.

Nice photo attached from 1976 of barges used in the columbia during bridge construction. total of 28 cofferdams were apparently constructed. One possible theory is that this construction work could have displaced the bag for a journey downriver to Tina Bar. from http://www.gerwick.com/pdf/Cofferdams_Caissons/06columbia_river.pdf

I found historical peak flows measured at Salem, OR for the Williamette. http://www.nwrfc.noaa.gov/floods/papers/usgs_large_floods.pdf While we know of the flooding in 1996, a comparison to 1996 on the chart (attached) seems to show late 1976 (or early '77?) was a high year also. Not as bad as 1996 though. Note severe floods in the '60s (worse) are marked. Salem, OR is a bit far from the Columbia, but I'm thinking the water levels might be representative.

I've attached a photo of the back of L01781113A This one shows most obviously, that the purple stain occurs where there is no ink on the currency...i.e. the ink protected the paper from turning purple? At first I thought maybe the purple stain occured after the edge decomposition, which made it have the rounded rectangular pattern here. But then in looking at other bills, front and back, I realized that the purple stains occur mainly where there is bare paper. The ink protected the paper. This makes it more likely to be a chemical reaction with the paper I think. In fact, I wondered for a long time whether this could be evidence of counterfeit money, but when zoomed in, I think I can see the telltale threads in the paper. Also the crisp detail of the printing, and colors of the inks on good bills, seems consistent with real money.

attached (edit) another nice one from hawaii attached (big stuff)

In reading the various descriptions of the money find, it strikes me that the 3 bundles weren't uncovered all at once...i.e. it took some additional "sweeping" to recover all 3 bundles. If they were touching, I think the description of the find would have been different...i.e. we just found this one stack and couldn't find any others. So I'm going to theorize that the bundles weren't touching on discovery...just close together. The main testimony seems to be from an 8-year old on the initial uncovering of the bundles, so I think it's fair to question it. I would also note that we've gotten inconsistent descriptions from Ckret over time. On Dec 2, 2007, Ckret posted this: "There were multiple bundles recovered under 3 to 6 inches of sand, just at the waters edge (according to the Ingrams) no bricks of money. I found reference to four bundles, of which the rubber bands were still around them, there were 290 20's" This description makes no sense, since the find was not at the water's edge. And there weren't 4 bundles. So there must be inconsistent testimony from the Ingrams or something, or Ckret was just misremembering at the time. Although he had discovered the lab reports before this..these prior posts: on Nov. 28, 2007 Ckret posted this: "Here's the scoop on the money. It was found in a area known as Tena's Bar which is just northwest Vancouver. The money was found 6 to 8 inches below the surface along the northern shore of the Columbia. This area was owned by the Fazio Brother's Farms." different depth: the money is 6 to 8 inches below the surface on Nov. 30, 2007 Ckret apparently found the lab reports. Depth changes to "a few inches" "I found the cover sheets to the lab reports which summarize the findings. I also found the interviews of the Ingram family with regard to the recovery. I found the following: The money was not stuck together with muck. The money was found under just a few inches of sand. They were still bundled with rubber bands, however, the bands crumbled to the touch when they picked them up. The Ingrams took the money to their house and laid it out to dry. The only thing in the lab report was that the money was consistent with being submerged in water and that sand recovered off the money was consistent with silt from the Columbia. "

I was looking at the Ingram bills again and noticed an anomaly. I'm assuming the bills were all arranged in a bundle with the front of the bills in the same direction. The purple staining always seems to be most prevalent on the president's face side. What's odd, is that the "fading" on the rear sides (the ink fades to yellow) seems to only be present on the bills that also have the purple staining on the front. If the issue was just sun exposure for the top bills in a bundle, I wouldn't think we'd see this front/back correlation on a single bill. The bills with no front purple staining, also have normal green ink on the back (not yellow) The faded yellow (from green) on the backs is very dramatic, compared to the backs with no fading. So somehow, I think the purple staining on the front, and the yellow fading on the back are both caused by the same chemical action. I suppose the issue is that the front has mostly black ink and the back has mostly green ink. The black ink doesn't seem to fade like the green ink. The green ink seems to be affected differently than the black ink. But then again, the green ink on the front of the bills doesn't seem to be affected the same way as the green ink on the back. I don't know if the same green ink is used on front and backs of bills. While the back sides don't have as much purple staining, it may be because of an oxygen exposure issue, (more on top of bundle?) or it may be something subtle about the composition of the top of the bill.

I'm theorizing the stained bills (purple/black) are due to direct contact with dredging spoils which contained nitrites/nitrates, or sand that had farm fertilizer runoff. Assuming outer bills in a bundle were most affected. Which explains why apparent inner bills don't have the staining. Experts could estimate how long it would take for this staining to occur, given a sampling of current dredge spoils. I think it also means that the rubber bands were there throughout the staining period. This would go against the theory that the rubber bands imply a

isn't the ??? area just cleared/plowed fields, before planting? Remember from Jack Fazio's obit, they had a farming operation? When I zoom in with Google Earth, it does appear furrowed, but the color seems more gray than I would expect. But here's the telltale sign. Zoom around OTHER farm areas in that area. Other fields are in the ?same? newly plowed state (grey) ...I think because everyone plants around the same time, and the satellite photo must have been taken before planting? There are some row crops visible as green...so some things must be planted at different times. oh and you've seen the little stream that crosses almost all the way from Lower River Rd near Tina Bar to the Lake River that drains/fills Vancouver lake? I showed that in an earlier post. Note you're talking about the Shillapoo Lake region.

yeah, but there are some things that just can't be answered. I think the money is going to be one of them, unless Cooper is still alive and confesses. There's just too many possibilties. I can't conceive of accumulating enough data to point to just one of them. Even if we all agree to agree on one theory as "best", it's just a gentleman's agreement. It won't necessarily be true. Getting a definitive statement on the cause of the black and purple staining of the money, and the length of time required in the probable sand/water environment for the bill edge decomposition, and the source of the holes...would be a HUGE step in understanding the money. But we can't even get that! I mean the most detailed photos of the Ingram money were the ones I published here, that I stole from the auction site...Isn't that laughable? If there's no investigation budget to do even a rudimentary money analysis, as far as we know here,... our motley stabs at it are pretty pointless... I mean we have our fun, and I hope everyone else is drinking too...everyone does a shot when Jo goes off a bit...and another shot when she makes it back :) I sent an email to the B.E.P. guys that analyze damaged US currency asking them to look at photos of the Cooper bills to give an opinion. They never responded. I figured they forwarded my email request to Ckret saying "hey there's this weird guy asking us to look at bills from the Cooper case, maybe it's Cooper!" :) (edit) I'd flame at Ckret for his mention of releasing info to Sluggo cause he's on the same page, but I didn't want to reveal the Con we have going...i.e. at least one plan is working well...

good photo, thanks! It's interesting how we reveal our biases based on the theories we reject or embrace. It would be way too embarassing for the FBI to ever articulate a theory where the cows ate the bag or the rest of the money. However it's a very plausible theory. More plausible than some of the snag/rip/tear/move-on theories. But it'll be rejected out of hand, just because it's doesn't have enough dignity (but why does floating have more? Because it needs experts like hydrologists to explain?) Same thing with rejecting non-natural water paths like stormwater drains. Hey that reminds me of another story..we used to crawl thru storm water drains as kids. They were our secret caves in suburbia.