snowmman

uhhh. He was a whuffo who knew enough to be a danger to himself? does that cover it?

good point, Ckret. I forgot that. However, it's the only time "front" shows up in any of the Cooper evidence (transcripts). "chest" is used from then on, right. (see my recent post) There's always the possibility "front" was wrong in this transcription. Are there any other mentions of "front"? I don't know.

pretty black and white thinking. It's amazing to think we give teenagers a license to drive a car at 60mph+! in heavy traffic. Which requires more skill?

Who would have "lots" of experience with emergency gear besides riggers and escape system techs? Most flight crew in large military planes never think about chutes after their initial training. There are almost never emergency bailouts from military transport aircraft. Military C 135s (similar to Boeing 707s) have even stopped carrying chutes to save weight. If Cooper had been say a crewman (loadmaster?) on a C 130 Herc he would know how to don a rig, tighten the straps, pull a ripcord and he would know basic parachute landing and survival techniques. If he had used the term "interphone" rather than "intercom" that would be a strong pointer to military flight crew experience. I seem to recall that his alleged use of "interphone" was an unsubstaiated rumor. 377 I think whuffo/non-whuffo is too strong a dichotomy. My sense is that people are using it to differentiate "active US-based 1971 sport jumper" vs everyone else, including non-jumpers. What percentage of active US jumpers in 1962-64 were exposed to Pioneer rigs? (What Pioneer rig are we talking about anyhow? Ckret never said? Mark I was 1964? Mark II was 1969??? Are sport jumpers from early '60s considered whuffos in the Cooper context? I'm totally confused.

Lisa, you've not done your homework. Read up on McNally. And just because one's a USPA member, it doesn't mean you're not clueless: Read up on Heady.

thanks 377 My reading of news articles was that by Jan '72 they were putting beacons in the chutes they gave hijackers, but it's not clear if everyone in '72 got one, so there may have been a local availability issue for the FBI?? I forget which hijack it was, but I do remember reading an article where the beacon was used to successfully track a chute, but the hijacker wasn't there. Was it McCoy's where he pushed the FBI chutes out and used his own so they didn't find him? I forget and don't want to go look. In any case, you said We don't know exactly what Cooper said. front and back is wrong. We do know that the messages relayed that showed up in the RTTY transcript was as follows. It's not clear if Cooper used the phrase "Chest Pack" or whether the crew or others introduced the phrase. page 1 of the transcript has this exchange (when it starts with 305, that's communication from the plane) 305 PSGR ADV IS RIHAKING ENRTE TO EA STEW HAS BEEN HANDED NOTE REQST 2HND THSD AND KNAPSACK BY 5PM SEA THIS AFTNN WANTS 2 BAK PAK PARACHUTES WANTS MONEY IN NEGOTBL AMERICAN CURRNCY DENOMINATION OF BILLS NOT IMPORATANT HAS BOMB IN BRIEF CASE AND ILL USE IT IF ANYTHING IS DONE TO BLOCK HIS REQUEST ENRTE TO SEA then later: page 2 of the transcripts SEADD ARE IN CTC WITH LOCAL BANK AND ARRANGING FOR THE MONEY ND WILL HAVE THE TWO CHEST PACKS SOON ALREADY HAVE THE TWO BACK PACKS It seems Cooper really did want at least one chest chute. Remember on page 15 of the stew notes, there were comments about how if they were waiting on the 2nd chest chute, that it was okay to just go with what they had. i.e. "If the case waiting for one chest chute go ahead + go down" on page 11 of the stew notes, when Cooper is getting impatient waiting, but only the back? chutes mentioned: "getting very impatient of the chutes. 2 bag [sic] packs have money money first"

(edit) There's nothing that says he took the dummy reserve. All we know is that it's gone. We seem to agree it can't attach to a NB-6. So how would it have been "taken" ??? on NB-6 choice w/no reserve: Night jump. Windy. If the main fouls, what are the odds of successfully clearing it and deploying the reserve? I figure the odds of living are pretty much close to the same, with or without the chest...the chest benefit is WAY in the noise?...like past the noise of having jump suit/shoes/altimeter etc? Prove me wrong with actual stats? And this stuff about knowing 28' vs 26' Ask the same question about the Pioneer. Do we even know the canopy size that was stuffed in the Pioneer? And how could you tell? I have no problem with there being a whuffo argument. It's just no one's making it well, in a way I can understand. And if I don't understand it, I can't see why Ckret would understand it.. Is there like a secret whuffo flowchart that can't be revealed? look at this old post from Ckret: We have someone making decisions on a sleeve and padding? Is the sleeve capability visible from the outside? And this padding: does it affect the pain/injury? No way...it only affects minor chafing. (edit) I can further guess that is why it doesn't show up in military emergency rigs of that era. 1200 lbs (or more? 2x that?) transferred to a human body thru webbing straps...the force you feel depends on the amount of skin the straps are covering and whether the straps bend over etc. Padding is going to mean nothing for big forces? All that matters is webbing surface area and where it is on the body. Right? Correct me if wrong. I'm going nuts over these charmin and soft padding arguments and sleeves you can't see? If the NB-6 looked like it was stuffed bigger than the Pioneer, I'd guess that it had a larger canopy, since canopies were likely all rounds, and used similar weight nylon?

Would you deliberately make a whuffo-like choice to hide the fact that you are a jumper, to the extent that it endangers your life on a skydive ? I don't know what the whuffo choices are (maybe expand?) but, you raise a good point. I don't know how Cooper thought, but one way would be #1 Getting caught is worse than dying, so prioritize no-get-caught #2 Then prioritize staying alive. How would you rationalize people who rob banks and shoot it out with cops? That sounds kind of whuffoish, but it happens. Basicallly at some level they have to accept death as a one reasonable outcome.

ok. Then I'm ready to say no-pull. So if we have no-pull and the money find, and the testimony and flight path, it's pretty easy to come up with a scenario that ties it all together. I've provided no-body-found drowning cases in the Columbia already. What are we missing? Does the money find not align with randomness? We are not missing a thing Snowmman. A no pull certainly is a likely outcome, but not a satisfying one. I am still hoping that Cooper survived. 377 seems likely that survival would be tied to stronger jumper experience. The whole jumper experience thing doesn't seem well quantified..i.e why-a-whuffo but ckret seems to grab onto loose info like squeezing the charmin (the reserve) showing that he wasn't a jumper. We have no idea what happened to the 2nd chest reserve, and Ckret is talking about speculation about whether Cooper squeezed it and made a decision about which one to cut open? Jeez he might have looked at the NB-6, decided to take it, with no D-rings and no tapewells or whatever and said "IT DOESN"T MATTER WHICH CHEST I OPEN" cause I ain't taking no Chest! It don't matter! I'd like to see the list of stuff that says whuffo/non-jumper. Sometimes it seems like people make stuff up in their heads and don't post the details, just their summary conclusion.

ok. Then I'm ready to say no-pull. So if we have no-pull and the money find, and the testimony and flight path, it's pretty easy to come up with a scenario that ties it all together. I've provided no-body-found drowning cases in the Columbia already. What are we missing? Does the money find not align with randomness?

thanks wolf. Note your response makes it hard to understand why to listen to all the "hard pull" posts. basically you're pointing out "most don't know". (edit) I know I don't. Single arm straight chest push out, maybe 40-50 lbs for most anyone? I'm thinking about half of a bench press capability. Maybe cut it down cause of stress/instability etc. Be nice to relate that to estimated fish scale measurement, if that's the right comparison.

Chime in where I'm misunderstanding. on page 434 of The Parachute Manual, Poynter, he presents a "right hand outboard pull" mod. I believe in subsequent pages he's showing how to make the mod. (up to page 440?) On page 434 he goes thru the benefits. More stability during the pull, and interestingly, claims an easier pull...i.e. less likely to require a two handed pull than a cross chest pull. Also, if two hands required, still stable as ripcord is only 1 3/4" in. farther from body center. Given that a 28' canopy was packed in the NB-6, causing a "hard pull"...it seems reasonable to believe the reason for Cossey's apparent right hand pull mod (based on Ckret's post this year) was more likely to do with getting a stronger pull, than the reasons posted before. How many people have used a right hand pull mod like this? (I don't know if right hand pull is already typical or not in non-emergency parachutes) Poynter claims "the jumper is able to exert more leverage pushing away from the shoulder than pulling across the chest" http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA434 When people say "hard pull" it's very subjective and not taking into consideration the rig setup..i.e. people aren't talking about lbs (since they are unknown). A simple question. Has anyone out there done a right hand outboard pull on a NB-6 with a 28' canopy? I'm surprised people didn't recognize the description of Cossey's mod before when we discussed it. Am I misunderstanding Poynter? Poynter also notes that the ripcord is on the left inboard side on emergency parachutes to protect the handle against accidental activation, (edit) Oh I see..I guess inboard for less accidental, but assumes right hand cross chest..so left hand inboard mount... page 176 is useful also. Has a picture of a model wearing a NB-6. Can see exactly what it looked like while Cooper was wearing it. Nice front and back shots. (top left of page) http://books.google.com/books?id=BKTuTXrXQu0C&pg=PA176 Chest seems loose to my tastes but maybe that's good enough? (edit) I'm reminded of NickDG's sig about things going bad when 20-year-olds needed some place to go to have their oil changed. The thought that comes to mind: "I knew things were bad when I saw skydivers kissing FBI ass"

Snowmman you are much much smarter than that. Back then we got a ticket with boarding passes in a folder. You handed this folder to the Stewardess and she removed the boarding pass for that leg. Cooper had NO reason to touch the boarding pass. Wow! You were on top of it last night - whatcha doing tonight - pulling silver? Are we trading insults Jo? Pick your favorite, here. -> You're speculating. You know nothing about this detail. Sure that's a possibility. So are others. The only fact is a picture of a single ticket, that we don't know how was tied in to the whole thing. If you can't distinguish fact vs speculation, well... Oh, wait a second, that detail is fact.

We have a northwest orient ticket with the name Dan Cooper on it. It's been referred to as a boarding pass. On this forum, we've not been told if a single piece of paper (i.e. this ticket) was handed to Cooper, and then Cooper handed it back in as he boarded. Or if there were other pieces of paper. A ticket sold back then would have carbons? So I'm surprised there aren't multiple tickets...i.e. the carbon from the ticket agent, and the boarding pass? How many copies existed? How many were saved? It was probably too hard to isolate the twenty he used to pay for it for fingerprints. The twenty used to pay for the drinks would have still been in the money pouch the stews had, so isolate-able, but mixed in with possible other twenties. Unknown the degree of certainty for isolating that twenty. But the ticket/boarding pass definition is important. It leads to the question "were prints lifted from the ticket". If yes, then the question of whether any prints are reliably Cooper's is more likely yes?. If no, then this whole question of whether any lifted, usable prints are Coopers is still up in the air. I read a post Ckret made way back as saying prints lifted from the magazines were probably very unlikely to have been Coopers..i.e. shot-in-the-dark lifts.

we're all familiar with the NB-6 photo at Sluggo's site. Attached are pics of a 1958 NB-6. (I'm accepting a site's id. b pic also says NB6) You can see there are differences. Especially in the straps/harnessing. (c photo) So: my comment about 1971-era NB-6 (or earlier to ??? degree) I think is valid. Saying "NB-6" isn't an exact definition? Year (minimally), maybe more is needed? I think we had confirmation Cossey did no D-ring mods to it. (verify?) For a particular year, did multiple vendors supply NB-6 models to military? I don't know what all the vendors were over the years (Switlik? Smith? ???) Correct me if wrong on any of this.

I concede that was a good movie, I don't care what planet you're from.

I've not seen a picture of a 1971 era NB-6 rig. The pics we have are more modern day? Not sure if anything changed slightly. We don't know if there was a deployment sleeve on the canopy? Is it guaranteed 'no' because of the rig/canopy or era? I may be just clueless here. We don't know if there were panel mods on the canopy? (forward speed, descent rate) I was surprised people dismissed the possibility of the chest reserve being kludged onto the NB-6 webbing. The hooks on the chest reserve Ckret has are fairly large. I'm assume the missing chest reserve has similar hooks. We assume "myths" like Cooper didn't attach the reserve to himself, without proving that it's impossible to attach..i.e. only knowing the NB-6 didn't have D-rings (which I'm not even sure Ckret verified properly..I guess he did) But other than that, yeah we know about the rig :) We don't even know the last time it was packed or used? I've wondered about whether the straps were adjusted for Cossey, and whether Cooper could have strapped it on just clipping the snaps and not adjusting the straps. Oh yeah: we're not in agreement that Cossey's statement about the Pioneer being the better rig...was just wrong? For a jet exit, there seems to be no rationale that would say the Pioneer was the better rig. And that was used to justify Cooper being a non-jumper. Cossey: did he have any military experience? He was a school teacher? Did he have any 200 mph exits at the time (turboprop, jet or ???)? I'm wondering why his opinion was considered expert on jet jump at the time. There may be info/data I'm not aware of. (impunes me, not Cossey).

1) There is no such thing as misinformation or myths in the Cooper case. It is all misinformation. All we're doing is sorting thru stuff and deciding if today we think something is better or worse misinformation. 2) The pills thing was initially from way back in the Tosaw book. You discounted at the time saying it was literary license. I accepted that and moved on. It's kind of weird that you discounted it before checking and now you checked, but whatever. 3) Jo takes pills for we don't know what reason and sometimes sounds loopy. Some of us take beer for probably pretty close to the same reason. Not sure how well disguised our loopiness is, in comparison to Jo, though. 4) Yeah you missed something. You didn't answer my question with your name in the subject. There are no facts in this case. Hey, I've been looking at the brown/black bill issue more from video snaps and things. I was very confused about the black bills, because the 1980 green table photos don't show any black bills. I was thinking they must be bottom-of-bundle. Another photo showed some slightly brown tops. unknown date. The bills had been separated into singles. Not in the paper folders ..plastic bag? or some kind of pile. But the latest video snap (from 2008) shows that the brown/black bills (at least two) are top faces (I think). I wonder if they browned while in FBI possession? I had posited that if the black bills were one-sided black, and they were all face or all bottom, that statistically that would be odd for 3 bundles flipped on the beach. like 3 coin tosses, and the bundles landing the same way...assuming the effect that caused the brown/black was unidirectional in some way...since other bills were white...maybe sun, sand or ?? exposure... Also: there were more black bills in 1986 when the insurance/ingram/lawyer/fbi split them up..there were 3 more black bills there. So if they browned after discovery, it happened in the 1980-1986 period. (edit) and who got the rest of the black bills? Brian? Didn't see any black ones in the auction. Does he still have some? or ??? Or: I was wondering about the idea of more bills found during the dig. The 12 bundle green table shot was taken immediately after Ingrams reported it, if I got my dates right. The money dig then happened for a couple days after it. So, it's possible fragments found during the money dig were not on the green table shots. Oh I found one fact. The guy who sold me tires today. His name was Cooper. File it.

The lady may have misremembered. American Legion vs BPOE? (Elks) The American Legion had their 48th annual convention in Washington D.C in 1966. They expected to draw 50,000 so it was a big deal. Someone might travel cross country for it. It was at the end of August. They had a big parade. Duane was a vet? so maybe that aligns. Who knows. President Johnson gave a speech at the 1966 convention, on Aug 30, on patriotism. "Make no mistake about the character of this war. Our adversaries have done us at least one great service: They have described this war for what it is--in unmistakable terms. It is meant to be the opening salvo in a series of bombardments, or, as they are called in Peking, 'wars of liberation.' "And if it succeeds in South Viet-Nam, then, as Marshal Lin Piao says, 'The people in other parts of the world will see . . . that what the Vietnamese people can do, they can do, too.'" Source: The Pentagon Papers, Gravel Edition, Volume 4, (Boston: Beacon Press, 1971), pp. 658-659. full speech?: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=27816 (edit) Bainbridge: "Now we are all sons of bitches" (edit) Just noticed that the American Legion approved Vietnam vets for admission, at the 1966 convention.

The national Elks conventions are called Grand Lodge conventions. There are state ones also. They vote on things like the Grand Exalted Ruler at the national ones. The history of the national ones is here: http://www.elks2510.org/glconv.htm 1962-63 Chicago, IL 1963-64 San Francisco, CA 1964-65 New York, NY 1965-66 Miami Beach, FL 1966-67 Dallas, TX 1967-68 Chicago, IL 1968-69 New York, NY 1969-70 Dallas, TX 1970-71 San Francisco, CA 1971-72 New Orleans, LA 1972-73 Atlantic City, NJ

So, based on the US census, investigate people who lived in Seattle (530,000) and would like to have $200,000 (530,000). Of course, this probably won't happen because of The Cover-up. Jo's Coverup? I thought that only covers Duane. Is it all-inclusive?

Ckret, you stated that the members of the informal Boeing "jump club" were all investigated. I presume this was the membership as of 1971. The Boeing 727 was designed starting in 1959. The first delivery was in 1964. (727-100. first delivery 727-200 in 1967) From what I can tell, the first time Boeing employees got together for an informal jumping club was in 1962. If there was any suspicion Cooper might have been involved in some way with the 727 design or rollout, then an obvious investigation would be anyone involved in this informal jumping club from 1962 to 1964 or 1965. Actually, one could imagine that it was a waste of time investigating 1971 members. I'm assuming the 1962 to 1965 period was thoroughly investigated also? You mentioned that the case has been investigated thoroughly, so I'm assuming the answer is yes. If the answer is no, that's good too, it just confirms there really wasn't much of an investigation.

Too funny 377. Reminded me. Jo has occasionally implied the conspiracy has deleted some emails she tried to make, or PMs, when they contained keywords of a certain type. And I was musing how the behavior of things like Search Engines actually feeds conspiracy thinking. Or simple technology failures. SE's are designed to promote random weak links to the same level as strong links. i.e. it's crappy technology. Yet it's made available to everyone with Caveat Emptor, even though people have no idea what it does. Giving guns to babies at some level. And talking about searches in '98 vs searches today...it's just two different beasts. In any case, I think I may have found evidence of the conspiracy here at DZ.com. or it might just be broken software. Or a user error. Someone can help me with verification. If I search for LaPoint (body and text) with poster "snowmman" one of the posts I get is this one: But then if I search for Hahneman I would have expected to get the same post above in the list, but I don't get it..So it's like the "Hahneman" search isn't getting the full results? I mention this because it's a hassle if I can't trust this thread to be a good database..i.e. search integrity is broken. It may have to do with the text string being surrounded by newlines in the message or something? I would like to be corrected on this. But the conspiracy may prevent that.

in my mind, 377 is the reference signal. The gps we can trust. If 377 goes nuts, then we're hosed. However, I did have a good laugh to myself. Is DZ.com the forum for delusional people who think they can fly? :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/fashion/13psych.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin Dr. Ralph Hoffman, a psychiatry professor at Yale who studies delusions, said a growing number of his research subjects have told him of visiting mind-control sites, and finding in them confirmation of their own experiences. “The views of these belief systems are like a shark that has to be constantly fed,” Dr. Hoffman said. “If you don’t feed the delusion, sooner or later it will die out or diminish on its own accord. The key thing is that it needs to be repetitively reinforced.” For people who regularly visit and write on message boards on the mind-control sites, the idea that others would describe the sites as promoting delusional and psychotic thinking is simply evidence of a cover-up of the truth. “It was a big relief to find the community,” said Derrick Robinson, 55, a janitor in Cincinnati and president of Freedom from Covert Harassment and Surveillance, a group that claims several hundred regular users of its Web site. “I felt that maybe there were others, but I wasn’t real sure until I did find this community,” Mr. Robinson said. .... Psychiatrists and researchers say it is too soon to say whether communication on the Internet among people who may be psychotic will negatively effect their illnesses. ” This is a very complex little corner,” said Dr. Ken Duckworth, the medical director for the National Alliance on Mental Illness, an advocacy group. “Some people may find it’s healing, but these are really hard questions. The Internet isn’t a cause of mental illness, it’s a complicating new variable.”