snowmman

This is in the strange but true category. But I consider this a Snowmman Excellent Post. Hopefully all you skydivers know who Thomas Pynchon is, right? It provides evidence of my claim of engineering being only one of the ways to acquire 727 knowledge and how we have a stunning lack of knowledge about how information was created and maintained in the '60s at Boeing. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6750/is_/ai_n28819965 "Early in 1960, after having graduated from Cornell and while writing V., Thomas Pynchon moved to Seattle and began working for the Boeing Airplane Company. What Pynchon did while working at Boeing has puzzled scholars almost from the moment of the very private author's literary debut. When we try to delve into his stint at Boeing--first mentioned by Lewis Nichols and Dick Schaap--we reach dead ends or find conflicting information. Yet Pynchon's time at Boeing is perhaps the most documented period of his life, and over the years a number of interesting (though not always accurate) bits of information have emerged." ..... "In "The Quest for Pynchon," Mathew Winston provides the first substantial, if brief, discussion of Pynchon's work for Boeing. Though Winston's essay is not particularly well-documented, he does give Pynchon's dates of employment as February 2, 1960, to September 13, 1962. What did Pynchon do during this time? Winston gives only a vague account: Pynchon worked "not as editor of a house organ ... but as an 'engineering aide' who collaborated with others on writing technical documents" (284-85). In half a sentence Winston first refutes a suggestion Nichols had made, then drops a tantalizing hint, but provides no evidence for his claims and leaves many questions unanswered." ..... "Five years after Winston, David Cowart develops the picture further. Cowart locates one of Pynchon's colleagues at Boeing, Walter Bailey, who worked "'a couple of desks over'" from Pynchon "in Boeing's giant Developmental Center." According to Bailey, Pynchon "wrote for an intramural sheet called the 'Minuteman Field Service News' (to be distinguished from the company's official house organ, The Boeing News)." Specifically, the two men "worked in the Minuteman Logistics Support Program," and Pynchon had "a 'Secret' clearance." Pynchon, Bailey recalls, was an introvert, had few friends at Boeing, and, while working, would occasionally "shroud himself in the enormous stiff sheets of paper used for engineering drawings and work within this cocoon, like an aerospace Bartleby, by whatever light filtered in" (96). The men became friendly when "Bailey made a casual literary reference one day, which generated an immediate and enthusiastic response from Pynchon." Pynchon, Bailey discovered, was "'very literate'" and also well-versed in "technical matters" (97). Unfortunately, Bailey's reminiscences end there (except for a further brief reference, relegated to an endnote, to Pynchon's technical competence), and Cowart, like Winston, fails to inquire further--about either Minuteman Field Service News or, more intriguingly, what Pynchon wrote for it." ... page 2 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6750/is_46-49/ai_n28819965/pg_2?tag=artBody;col1 " Work was assigned, the subject studied, for example a loading-pin mechanism, then a visit was made to the on-site manufacturing and application of the pin, a chat with the design engineers, then the writing up of the paper, using a Boeing style-book as reference, before editorial approval. " In his quest for examples of Pynchon's Boeing writing, the author of this article examines on page 7 " A closer look at the issue, however, challenges such a generalization. "MIU Plug Problems," for example--which at first seems similar to the other articles in the issue--contains the following passage: Those who design electrical cables become--not unreasonably--concerned when these cables are damaged in use. For a hypersensitive few, perhaps, the only significant difference between the cable assembly one has designed and one's own offspring is the $600 tax deduction; every tear in a protective covering, every deviation of a plug from the perfectly circular, every bent pin or contaminated socket is like a judo chop, inflicted by an invisible but tireless adversary; an adversary who haunts one's uglier nightmares, wears AF blue and is named The User. Ask one of these delicate souls what he thinks The User has been doing with the MIU cable plugs lately and most of the answers you get will be unprintable. (BSN 33: 6) Not quite by the book, to be sure." (edit) Pynchon worked on his book "Gravity's Rainbow" throughout the 1960s and early 1970s while he was living in California and Mexico City. (edit) The article is a beautiful piece of research. It can be had as a single html page (to avoid having to page thru) at http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6750/is_46-49/ai_n28819965/print?tag=artBody;col1 (edit) Pynchon's purpose is to discuss the safety precautions necessary when airlifting the IM-99A Bomarc missile, yet seemingly excess material repeatedly creeps in. Consider the following passage: As this article goes to press, the safety record of Bomarc Airlifts can be summed up in four words: so far, so good. You may recall, however, the optimist who jumped off the top of a New York office building. He was heard to yell the same thing as he passed the 20th floor: so far, so good.

I was just reading a nice doc I found with lots of photos about USAF special ops during the cold war. Had a picture of the cuban exiles training in Guatemala for their paratroop in during Bay of Pigs. There were 200 paratroops? I thought the picture of the rig was interesting. (attached) From "Apollo's Warriors, United States Air Force Special Operations during the Cold War", Col Michael E. Haas, USAF Retired 380pp

Interesting. I can top that! I was looking at a website from a guy with stories about when he was in Vietnam. He snapped a picture of a Boeing 307 Stratoliner. Picture attached, fom 'nam. Did you mean 307? There were only 10 of them built? fully pressurized? This site references use with Air Laos. http://www.aviation-history.com/boeing/307.html I forget where I got the photo, but it was Vietnam..the guy was surprised when he saw it. Looks like some military planes in the background. (edit) Hey there's a Howard Hughes reference for Jo. He apparently got one of the 307's!

Thanks for that, Mark. Yeah, I dunno. All I have are two mainstream news articles that say Marana Air Park. (attached). A crummy photo is one of them. Looks like Cossey probably was 2nd in men's division? So he was good. Don't know how far back in the '60s he went with WA area skydivers.

Shit! I can't believe you Sluggo. I was thinking the exact same thing. There's a book put out by retired FBI agents..there's like a Society or something...I was looking at with Google. Some of them bragged about working the Cooper case. I never copied down everyone, but it's great you have a list! Other sources are news articles, cause over the years different agents were quoted. Was that where you got most of yours?

I finally bought a copy of "Ha-Ha-Ha" by D.B. Cooper. Published in 1983. I'm only on page 6, but things jump out at me as new possibilities for thinking about Cooper. The book is apparent fiction. Cooper is in the bathroom looking at himself in the mirror: "Due to recent rigid dieting, he was at least twenty pounds lighter than the usual me, obvious even beneath the cheap black suit and dark blue, full-length topcoat"

Here's a fun fact maybe that will stir up some memories. In 1968, the U.S. National Parachute Championships were at Marana Air Park. (in AZ) Remember Marana? The CIA front companies were there: Intermountain Aviation, Air America, Continental Air Services. It was the hq for all CIA air operations during the Vietnam war, supposedly? Fulton skyhook developed there. All the stuff there became Marana Air Park in 1961 which was sold in 1966 to Intermountain Aviation, a front for the CIA. I had a good laugh reading this. Jumpers back then probably liked to think they were counterculture, yet they were jumping at a CIA site? funny. "How can you be sticking it to the man, when the man is sticking it to you!" I mentioned the case where the Fulton Skyhook was used for the operation down in Antartica to try and retrieve Soviet documents. Two people were extracted using the skyhook. The B-17G apparently was based at Marana? (N809Z) (edit) supposedly N809Z flew some black ops over Vietnam but don't have details. (edit) details of the skyhook operation: 28 May 1962 In Operation Coldfeet, Maj. James Smith, USAF and Lt. Leonard A. LeSchack, USNR parachuted from CIA B-17G N809Z (44-83785 c/n 32426) into the abandoned Soviet arctic ice station NP 8. After searching the station, they were retrieved using a Fulton Skyhook system installed on the B-17, piloted by Connie Seigrist and Douglas Price, on June 1st. (edit) A neighbor hacked into the CIA and created this link for us: https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/pdf/v38i5a11p.pdf (edit) while walking around the CIA halls, found a nice story of a dramatic failed 1952 CIA aerial pickup in China using a C47 with winch etc. https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol50no4/two-cia-prisoners-in-china-1952201373.html "Beijing’s capture, imprisonment, and eventual release of CIA officers John T. Downey and Richard G. Fecteau is an amazing story that too few know about today."

Reply> Any date (even ballpark) on this? My thought was some newspaper publication. Something found in a good urban or university library. There was no internet then... G. well I don't really think it's worth looking. My reading of say like those True magazine articles and such, was that Gunter could have been tapping into a general feeling among males....as could some of the supposed Cooper letters.... Divorce was rising, more people starting to question "why the heck am I doing this" etc. I thought Max just tapped into the general doubts of "Death of a Salesman" middle aged males? I don't think Max needed any reference about what Cooper said? He just needed to understand what his readers would identify with. Heck, even that bulletin probably reflected biases of the people investigating the case, rather than just what Cooper said. (edit) My guess is that back in the '70s, the identification with Cooper had more to do with escaping from a humdrum life. Not so much the "stick it to the man" idea. But I dunno...I'm just musing about the various "Cooper" letters.

That's a good question. When I was searching for grudge info in the thread, I noticed Orange1 had pointed out that the pilots' bulletin had said Cooper had a serious grudge against airlines...which Ckret corrected. So for some reason bad info about grudge was circulated at some point in time. I think the pilot's bulletin is in the info at the FBI site. I'm not going to look right now. Be good to see what it said, when. (edit) following up Jan 12, 2008 Orange1 reported this, which Ckret corrected per above: 'btw Ckret - as per some of the clippings, in the Pilot Bulletin they mention Cooper was reported to have "a bitter hatred" for airlines and may have worked for one; in AirLine Pilot it says "he expressed a bitter hatred for the airlines"'

According to Ckret, in 1971: Tina asked him at one point why did he hijack the flight and Cooper replied, "I don't have a grudge against the airline, I just have a grudge." If Cooper lived, in 2008, what would he say if you met him: a) "I just have a grudge" b) "Isn't life great? let's go jumping" c) "Where can a guy my age get a little bit of it?" d) "I really like helping out down at the food drive" e) "The wife and I really like gardening" f) "Would you like to buy some insurance?"

One thing I've been fascinated by is the online replays of canopy flights/jumps that have been traced by GPS from real jumps..it seems like french are doing it a lot? online you can replay the jumpers canopy flight on a map. Very cool. Have people seen that? I'm curious if many US jumpers do the GPS thing. Seems fun. (don't know if it's expensive) I also just found this jumper's (DZ.com poster) online logbook. Very cool stats and bar graphs (when you click around) http://iharrop.jumplog.net/ http://www.paralog.net/index.html When one [me] has no knowledge, every little bit is a gem! (edit) Be cool if we had the data from an instrumented jet jump, like this jump data profile: http://iharrop.jumplog.net/ParalogJumpProfile_658.png Maybe there is one out there? Maybe the technology isn't widespread enough yet? (edit) example of track play: go here and click on a red triangle, then click on the big red triangle on the next page Man! I love the little instruments on the bottom! http://www.trackingderby.com/en/results_canopy_id_1.php

That's bullshit beer talk. People could disappear. There is no way "people" know what happened to everyone. We have no idea who the FBI talked to. I've never seen a list of who they talked to, or who was on the suspect lists. How the F. do you know? And why does investigating leads have anything to do with whether Cooper was a jumper in '62-'70? "Investigating" means nothing compared to reality. I couldn't care less what the FBI does. Isn't that obvious?

You're not wrong - on that - but you do seem to be shifting the goalposts... from when you originally stated you didn't think the community was an "everyone knows everyone" type. Seems to me you said one thing but thought you were making a point on something else! What goalposts? Where were the goalposts before? Are you saying there was a profile based on any clear rational thinking? I thought all we had was something Ckret read in Psych Today? Can you rearticulate where you thought the goalposts were and why and whether you think it makes sense? I don't care where the goalposts are. I'm just trying to think clearly.

I'm only exasperated because you don't seem to grasp my point. Anyone who's been in the sport for only 40 years is a FNG, for us theorizing on a particular kind of Cooper profile. 40 year old reminisces are no more useful than I believe talking to Cossey in '71. Isn't that a reasonable point of view? I think I'm just stating the obvious. Am I wrong?

That makes absolutely no sense. I'm a whuffo, and it's all I can do to not get booted from a DB Cooper thread. There is no way I would post to any other thread at DZ.com. I did once purely by accident. Nope. I can see that it's right to be in a box here. Hey if you're a jumper, why don't you?

In A.D. 2101 War was beginning. Captain: What happen ? Mechanic: Somebody set up us the bomb. Operator: We get signal. Captain: What ! Operator: Main screen turn on. Captain: It's you !! CATS: How are you gentlemen !! CATS: All your base are belong to us. CATS: You are on the way to destruction. Captain: What you say !! CATS: You have no chance to survive make your time. CATS: Ha ha ha ha .... Operator: Captain !! * Captain: Take off every 'ZIG'!! Captain: You know what you doing. Captain: Move 'ZIG'. Captain: For great justice.

What we really need is a boobie angle, though. The only thing I can find is here. The Icelandic Girls. It makes sense. http://www.anusha.com/icegirls.htm "Heidi told me about two bars where the Icelandic girls would go to meet and drink, so I started going there too. Both bars were next to Harold Square in Midtown Manhattan. One was called the Executive Lounge and was on 33rd Street directly across from the McAlpin Hotel. The address was 30 West 33rd Street. However, that closed down and turned into a strip club, so the Icelandic girls moved over to O'Reilly's Pub on 54 West 31st Street."

thanks 377 for the first hand info. So my question: why the heck did anyone listen to Cossey's opinion in 1971? I'm sure he's a great guy. He was doing competitive stuff in '71. I can see news articles about him in '68. I'm really curious. What's his background? He was 33 in '71. He probably didn't have jump experience back to '62? I'm just asking. Shouldn't be any foul in not knowing something.

I must have missed that. Could you refer me to the relevant post with such proof please? If it was true, I'd get a response to the following: Hey out there in DZ land: you guys know anyone who was on those C-47 loads with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club in the late '60s? or Hey out there in DZ land: who else was jumping at that civilian club at Clark Air Base back in the '60s...remember that crazy shit we did? or Who the heck was that guy that jumped with Seattle Skydivers in '63. you remember him? remember the rig he used? or fuck...remember the old 1929 Travelair at Issaquah. I loved it! I'll await a response.

Yes, but this may have been less of an issue for a jumper with military experience than one known to the sport community? I thought I already proved that this concept of everyone knowing everyone in the sport "community" from '62-'70 is a lie. Tell me the history of USPA records for instance, if you know them. (hell even when USPA started!)

Yes, but this may have been less of an issue for a jumper with military experience than one known to the sport community? You're saying Cooper got freefall experience in the military? I don't think that makes sense given his age. Or are you saying he got static-line jump experience and went with that? He may have been WWII military that got into sport jumping for some reason. But I don't see why saying "just military" solves anything. If he was so gungho military that he'd be freefalling in the military as part of the job, I think there would be different personality/behavior issues than what Cooper displayed? (biased speculation by me)

okay I'm off on a literature tangent again, but there's two kinds of people in the world: Those who think Yossarian lives at the end. and Those who don't. The whole Cooper thing has a Catch-22 flair to it from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22 "There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle. "That's some catch, that Catch-22," Yossarian observed. "It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed." or if you're worried about bureaucracies: "An old woman explains: Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can’t stop them from doing."

Now I'm know I'm speculating widely..and only because it doesn't feel like any profile fits well... But: If I was Cooper, and I decided I just had to do this damn thing for whatever twisted set of reasons.....I would be conflicted by: 1) I know I can do it even though no one else thinks I could 2) After I did it, it will be obvious who could have done it...because the community of jumpers from '62-'70 would be relatively small, and the necessary skills so obvious...and yet even though I know every bureaucracy in town is totally incompetent..I've seen them do things they shouldn't be able to achieve SO... 3) I'd stress about them finding me...I KNOW I'll make it seem like a totally crazed whuffo did it. I'll jump in a business suit! I mean it's no big deal...only the jumpers less fully tuned into the consciousness of man-air symbiosis than me would think the suit thing is a big deal...Hell they'll create the alibi for me! It can't be him! He's either not good enough or not whuffo enough.. i.e. no one could have done the hijack! It didn't happen cause there's no way someone in a business suit would jump off a 727! Which is why the best plan for robbing a bank, is in a motorized wheelchair.

What year would you estimate would be the last year that it would be hard to find someone that had not jumped a Paracommander, ever? (edit) Said another way: last year you could find someone who had never jumped a Paracommander.. (edit) To make it more difficult, I've read that the new jumpers at jump clubs sometimes got the old gear, like 28' rounds. Assuming they are actively jumping every year. Assuming we're talking about both poor and non-poor jumpers. US would be one year. non-US another year. This estimate would provide a reasonable bounds for when someone who was a "jumper" "had" to be familiar with Pioneer gear. (I'm assuming Paracommander but we don't know. I don't know what range of Pioneer gear was around in '71. They did pilot emergency rigs, but we're told it was some kind of Pioneer Sport rig of unknown vintage, Type 226). So what are the two years? (edit) But there has already been hundreds of posts about Cooper's implied expertise based on gear selection. People "have" to have made an estimate in their minds. What is it? If no estimate was made...well.. (edit) Note I'm assuming correlation between "Pioneer sport rig" and Paracommander based on my weak understanding of the era. I may be missing a better correlation. (edit) Also: Cossey was 33 in '71? What year did he start jumping?

Attached are 3 ads from the Sept '65 Skydiver magazine about parachute gear. Does it tell me about what jumpers of the mid '60s would be familiar with? If so, what? What about for Poor jumper vs not-so-poor? What about early '60s? What about non-US?