snowmman

I will cut Ckret a little, but not much, slack on his engineer profile. Hahneman was an electronics engineer. I've covered him a lot. He asked for a lot of gear on his jump. Including cigarettes. (jump suit + helmet too? not sure what got delivered)....Evidently it was close to evening (Honduras) cause when he turned himself in, he said the first thing he did on landing was take off his gear, light a smoke and wait for daylight. I liked that, cause my prediction for Cooper on landing, would be, first thing, light a smoke. But if someone's going to say "McCoy is how a jumper would do it. (Well is Heady also a non-whuffo example then? He was pretty wild with pillowcase etc) ..you should then also say "Hahneman is how an engineer would do it". see I think most of our profiles are gooblegooky pseudo-psychology-today level thinking. We really can't predict how anyone would do anything when you're talking about hijacking...unless maybe the violent subgroup..guys with guns, political agendas, etc. Google news archive improved over the months. Coughed up a better photo of Hahneman (attached) His full name is Frederick William Hahneman. I guess He went by William? 49 in '72. Got life. (edit) demand list was like: two helmets, two jump suits, food, drink, cigarettes, two bush knives, the money, and six parachutes. I think Benson & Hedges. Yes, exactly 2000 of them. Really. (edit) The pilot was quoted: "I wouldn't have made that jump for a million dollars," said W. L. Hendershott, captain of the Eastern airliner. "It was extremely dangerous. Our crew saw him jump, but never saw the chute open." "He was cold and ruthless," said Hendershott. "There was no doubt in my mind that, if we balked at his orders, he would've shot the crew one by one." Leaped from 9000 ft as the pilot reduced speed over the highlands of Honduras. Quotes from: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=00sNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Lm0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7317,1138973&dq=hijack+honduras+jump+suits

Attached is article claiming the first no-chute jump. (reserve chute transfer in air) Rod Pack. 26. Jumped from 14,600 ft. Ex-carpenter, stuntman. Two skydiving photogs supposedly. His 534th jump. 167 lbs. Wore skin-diver belt with 30 lb weights 4000' to the start of the transfer. 4000' to complete the transfer. Said Pack: "They claimed it couldn't be done, but we proved differently" .... "You always hear somebody joking about jumping out of a plane without a parachute. Then I got to thinking, 'why couldn't it be done?'" (edit) I guess it's well known trivia already http://www.parachutehistory.com/skydive/rodpackjump.html picture there. funny Rod says he had never opened a reserve before.

One thought I've been musing about, is how the Cooper thing was really a technology exploit. i.e. the airline industry operated with a set of technologies and behaviors that were easily exploitable. Putting all issues of ethics and morality aside (because they don't matter for what's "doable")...I think that anything that is physically doable, eventually gets done, if there's some reward in it. (maybe not even financial). When I look at what things humans have done, that seems true. All possible crimes eventually get committed. The laws, morality etc. just reduce the rate. So when I think of Cooper, I can't help but wonder if Cooper might have had that thought: "It had to be done". I've also been reading a lot about Vietnam recently. Realizing how little I know. Lots of crazy things. Somehow my eye is always drawn to Quad-50's that were mounted on the back of dump trucks. I think just because it seems so insane.

(Sins of omission...) do you hijack aeroplanes though?? No, and I don't know who does. None of us do. So there's no distinguishing factor there for us. None of us have secret knowledge that brings us closer than others to hijackers. However, even though I'm whuffo, my probes have convinced me of the lack of knowledge here about '60s era skydiving. Sure some people jumped then, or know about it. But we don't have the full coverage that would give us data about "possible Coopers". For instance: 1) How many schoolteachers, non-engineers, etc were sport jumping '62-70 in the WA area? 2) How were jump clubs organized on USAF bases in southeast Asia and Vietnam from '62-70? 3) How many civilians jumped at those clubs? 4) What kind of US civilians were present in southeast Asia in '62-'70 that would be mid '40s in '71...like schoolteachers, USAID, or US non-military support programs. 5) I focus non-US because of an assumption of good US FBI coverage. But it's obvious that the search was lame or the data gathering bad. So the same questions apply to WA area '62-'70. 6) For each year within the '62-'70 period, what percentage of civilian jumpers used surplus gear, and non-steerable canopies. Split that between US and Southeast Asia. Note we have zero data on whether the FBI investigation covered all of that or not. 1000 suspects doesn't sound like a lot to me, especially when guys like Duane and some others are representative of "the list" I actually just laugh when you make it sound like "lit" would be off base. There's absolutely nothing that would say it's off base. I laugh at the relatively narrow understanding of Vietnam. (actually it's not funny, and I wasn't there). Orange1: Do you have data on the backgrounds of civilian jumpers from '62 to '70? Especially ones that would be mid-40's in '71. What do you think the breakdown is, for their "employment". We can fully assume some kind of military background like WWII since most males of the right age would have had it. The only reason "engineer" was brought into the subject was a perceived access to information about Boeing 727's? Right? That betrays a stunning lack of knowledge about how information was created and distributed and maintained in the early '60s, say. (to say that "the knowledge" somehow points to "engineer".) I hijack threads though!

mistaken? what were we looking for anyhow? I thought we had no good profile. Did you think we had a profile? Also, I have no confidence any more that I know what the note actually said, so ignore that particular post. well... insofar as "profile" was concerned I don't think anyone has mentioned Eng Lit majors before ah okay, then yes. I thought I had already introduced it when I suggested "boasting man" on the "possible" Cooper note (that Ckret hopefully can find) may have suggested literature also. Yes I'm thinking civilian, with jump experience. No engineering background. Literature? maybe. You gotta get the big ideas and big dreams from somewhere. If you're a loner you get them from books. Me, I think Ckret hasn't got a clue what engineers are like. I don't see why he threw out "engineer" in his early profile. I actually think it has more to do with his own perceptions than any professional assessment, but what do I know. I'm a nutcase posting on a DB cooper thread, on a skydiving website and I don't jump or fly!

mistaken? what were we looking for anyhow? I thought we had no good profile. Did you think we had a profile? Also, I have no confidence any more that I know what the note actually said, so ignore that particular post.

"Snowmman - I have learned a lot from you" Hi Jo. No you haven't. -Snow

correct me if I'm wrong, but my quick scan says: well it's obviously not Duane in the "undisclosed" Toutle letters. Only need to look at the hand printed "Jan" and compare "a". I notice it right away because Duane's "a" is the same way I print little "a"'s. I've been doing that since I was 16 or so, when I copied off someone else's print style, cause I thought it was cool and unique. The sample's Sluggo provided for little "a" don't look like that..both of them. How could someone say the hand printing matches? (edit) I'm guessing Jo will tell us that the handprinting on the Duane typed letter is from her, not Duane.

whatever. Why are you making excuses for how little we know? No matter what, there has to be some consensus truth that we say is "The Note". All we have is a casual comment from Ckret on the text. I had other questions. Sluggo noted that the stew notes describe the original note slightly differently. So all I'm saying, is that Ckret could tell us more about the testimony about the note. Maybe the interview didn't cover more detail. I don't know. That's all I'm saying. Anyone who says they know more than Ckret's casual post on the text of the note, would be interesting to hear from. (edit) For background on uncertainty even around the text: Per Crew Notes #2: Miss - I have a bomb in my briefcase. I want you to sit next to me.

I'm assuming that's Duane's block hand lettering on the letter? He must have scribbled notes on the copy after he mailed the original to whoever he was asking for record details? Is that correct? Is something like this what you would say "matched" the "Toutle" marking on the map we've seen before?

Well at least we're getting facts now! Reply> For me it is sentential structure as a reflection of linguistic thought patterns. There is a mismatch for one. Intellectual ideas are being written in poor English. It's a little like a 3rd grader writing about Relativity, that is so "meaningful" to him personally. How meaningful, can relativity be, to a third grader? But the sentential grammer is rather clear. It looks Germanic. Heavy use of qualifiers (particularly, partly, partially) at the beginning of the letter just when the author is seeking to establish a presence and a persona. That is very German. Then the use of rather long qualifying phrases in the middle and at the ends of sentences, all parsed by commas. All suggestive of German sentential thought phrasing. Is this the guy who said, "Get the plane on the road!" if Cooper said that? Gunther is German. Cooper looked Mediterranean. G. I don't know what Cooper said. Would he have said "Well, shit, let's get the show on the road, what's the hold up?" Is that Mediterranean?

re: search feature But if people edit their posts, the DZ.com search feature has a bug which I have duly noted here before. Therefore, what you say, is not guaranteed. It may give up the right result, but a small possibility that it might not. I don't understand what your point is. Searching can replace my posts?

Well at least we're getting facts now!

...been here before. Is this a new and different tie? Are you talking about literature? I have no idea what tie we're talking about or whether anything makes sense. In another thread, a poster said "I just drink and type until I slump over the keyboard. Then I wake up the next morning and see what I've posted". I can identify with that!

Do we have the testimony on the note exactly right? Forgive me if we do, I searched the thread, but wasn't confident. Also, were we told whether the note was typewritten, handwritten in block letters, pen or ink or ??? I don't think so? Please clarify. (edit) In Shakespeare's "The Taming of the Shrew" http://www.google.com/books?id=J8JB_5MdDN0C&pg=PA65&dq=come+sit+by+me when Petruchio says "Come sit on me", the interpretation is as a "bawdy introduction to sex" (edit) I have read the note was "printed in felt-tip pen and in all capital letters". Is this myth or fact? gg added "elegantly formed". I don't know where he got that. (edit) Also any testimony on the paper. Size? texture? Was it typing paper? Stationery? Did it have anything else on it? Was it cut down to a size? Was it white paper? Did it have any folds in it? In the way past, Ckret said the note said (edit) I incorrectly left out "Miss" on the original post "Miss I have a bomb. Come sit by me" In 1975, the wording was reported as: "I have a bomb in my brief case." Alternate wordings mentioned by others more recently: “Miss, I’ve got a bomb, come sit next to me" "I have a bomb in my briefcase. I want you to sit beside me" "I've got a bomb, come sit next to me - you're being hijacked.' "I have a bomb in my briefcase. I will use it if necessary. I want you to sit beside me." "I have a bomb here. I would like you to sit by me." (edit) Some of the Themes from "Taming of the Shrew" * Characters creating new identities and personas: disguises are carefully planned and calculated to allow characters to be successful in love. Love is therefore won through deceit, and the true personality is masked, i.e. Lucentio. * The Social Conditioning of Women: their lack of status within this society, the attitudes that male characters have towards women, the submissive role of women in courting and marriage. The behaviour of women is classed as 'shrewish' and needing 'taming' if a woman questions male authority and rejects the courtly love tradition, or is seen to be attractive and admirable (correct behaviour) if the woman is passive and accepting of male domination by her father and husband. * The Power of Words: characters are constantly entering into banter and trying to outwit each other through the use of language, i.e. when Petruchio first meets Katharina, and when Petruchio is with his manservant, Grumio. * A Battle of Wills: the Tamer and the bird ('kite'). The Tamer is always watching, subduing, denying sleep and food in this battle for supremacy. He weakens his rival, and makes her dependent on him.

The audio is available here (12/1/08) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97629326&ft=1&f=1021 (about 4 mins.) I suppose sticky typewriter keys have been replaced by sticky sound bytes.

georger! you've outdone yourself with that post. I applaud. At the very least, it's good performance art! (edit) "And all epics of history are written on a cheap typriter." They are! and a single roll of teletype paper (Jack Kerouac)...hey..wait a second. teletype? And georger must use a cheap "typriter" with sticking keys! (edit) Myth: it was a series of large sheets of tracing paper cut and taped together, not teletype.

You may have Gunther right. But why don't you just read more of his stuff. It's easily available to some degree at Google Books. here http://books.google.com/books?client=firefox-a&um=1&q=%22Max+Gunther%22&btnG=Search+Books (edit) or amazon http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Max%20Gunther&page=1 "The Split Level Trap" 1961 was case studies on suburbia. (Two Gordons were main authors). Actually referenced a lot. (edit) I was thinking from the True magazine articles, he sounded like someone who would write for Penthouse or Playboy. He did! Virility 8: A Celebration of the American Male By Max Gunther Published by Playboy Press, 1975 ISBN 087223391X, 9780872233911 280 pages

Yes, but that's obvious from a simple Google search. Why do you ask? He wrote a lot of books. I think his total may have been 26? Lots more magazine articles. Prolific. He was not focused on Cooper. Cooper seemed to have been just a one-off deal for him. (edit) Amongst the major and minor axioms: (1985) The Tenth Axiom teaches that a majority, though not always and automatically wrong, is more likely to be wrong than right. Guard against betting unthinkingly either with the majority or against, but particularly the former. Figure everything out for yourself before putting your money at risk. The greatest pressures on you, and the most frequently felt, will be those that push you into betting with the majority. Such march-with-the-crowd speculations, the Axiom warns, can be costly, for it is in their nature that they tend to make you buy when prices are high and sell when they are low. The strongest line of resistance against these pressures is a keen awareness of their existence and insidious power. The Eleventh Major Axiom: on Stubbornness If it doesn’t pay off the first time, forget it. (edit) full download at http://www.freedrive.com/file/115132,zurich_axioms.pdf

Do YOU know what other articles were in that ISSUE? When you posted that cover I didn't remember the cover, but something else got my attention. I don't know why and if I tell you I just set myself up the "game" you play with me. "Flash backs" - whatever!. Make sure you have the latest version of Flash installed. NEO: Can you fly that thing? TRINITY: Not yet. TANK: Operator. TRINITY: Tank, I need a pilot program for a military M-109 helicopter. ........ Featured in THIS issue: Issue Date: JANUARY 1962; VOL. 43, NO. 296 This description copyright MOREMAGAZINES. Any unauthorized use is strictly prohibited. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 BONUS BOOK CONDENSATION: The Murderers: The Story of the Narcotic Gangs . . . Harry J. Anslinger & Will Oursler. Now, for the first time, Americas top narcotics cop gives a full report from his own files on the vicious underworld network that controls the traffic in dope. TRUE ADVENTURE: Bullets for His Buddies . . . Kenn C. Rust. Full page color illustration by Robert McCall. One-Man Adventure in a Homemade Sub . . . Herb Shannon. Ed Armstrong and his sub. (Color photos). Russia's Bloodiest Blunder . . . Henry Jordan & Richard Hanser. Full page color illustration by Fred W. Otnes. IN THE NEWS: Do-It-Yourself Divorce for Fed-Up Males . . . Max Gunther. The Cruelest Game Since Rome . . . Don Kingery. Dog Fighting. (Color photos). Jackpot Jackets . . . Joe Wolfe. More Ideas for Christmas Giving. TRUE'S WHO: Edward Bennett Williams: Defender of Wrongos' Rights .... Bill Davidson. HUNTING: Regal Sport in a Royal Forest . . . Daniel P. Mannix. Hunting with H. R. H. Bernhard, Prince of the Netherlands. (Color photos) He Sells Sly Smells . . . Dale Shaw. Okay Butcher. SPORTS: Green Bay's Golden Ham . . . Jimmy Breslin. Paul Hornung. PICTORIAL: Peace Pipe Medals for Good Indians . . . Sid Latham. ESCAPE TO RICHES: A Head for Skis . . . Arthur Herzog. Howard Head. FACT CRIME: The Million Dollar Con . . . Alan Hynd. John Keely's claim. Full page color illustration by Bob Abbet. SHORT FEATURES: TRUEly Yours. Man to Man Answers. It's a Man's World. TRUE Goes Shopping. TRUE's Travel Service. This Funny Life.

Thread creep... Get back on track mister. Search "old school exit" sorry jon..keyboard jammed up. So: does anyone remember how you adjust the tab stops on an 1971 era typewriter?

I'm still trying to get a feel for the depth of experience/relationships that exist at DZ.com. Anyone who jumped out of a C-47 like the attached picture from 1966 at Tan Son Nhut Air Base...brag about it here!

I was reviewing some more scans from the Gunther book that Sluggo forwarded to me. It's interesting that the Clara letters refer to Cooper as "Dan" with the quotations. But the two much earlier letters supposedly from Cooper himself, are signed D.B. Cooper Clara also used "Dan Cooper" My take on it, is that the Gunther letters from Clara had nothing to do with the Gunther letters from Cooper. (edit) There were many phone calls with "Clara"? It's possible Gunther asked on the first: "Is this Clara?"...of course you would answer "Why yes of course, how did you know?". Basically, all the Gunther stuff seems like nonsense. If the first letter was really Cooper, it seems hard to believe that the title of the 1962 magazine article would have been remembered so perfectly. It's interesting that back when there weren't forums like this, if you were nuts you had to type letters and send them to people. How quaint! Like chess by mail. (edit) All hail Clara. She was Jo before Jo was Jo!

Jo, Even though I don't believe Duane had anything to do with Cooper, I do suspend disbelief and think about every single one of your posts. The stuff about Duane's typing skills: sure that's interesting. It is possible he was trying to run some kind of scam. Someone with his background might be well suited to running a Cooper imposter scam. Note that other people did try and got caught. And there were lots of people talking big stories (Coffelt) If you have any samples of letters that Duane actually typed, that would be interesting, sure. I'll look at them. Posts are free until Quade imposes a tax. (edit) Examples of Duane word choice, phrasing, misspellings etc, would be very interesting. (edit) A very interesting thing would be any Duane written letter that duplicates the missing character insertion methods and maybe the overstrike method. One wouldn't invent that for a single letter. It would be an individual's common way of doing things...It's sort of like a fingerprint a little, even though it's typing. For instance, the rate of "new paragraph" insertion in posts/email, is a characteristic of my posts.

Thanks Tom. I realize you did the video cause Ckret asked you, cause he thought that would advance the investigation. However, we wouldn't be truly digging into all possibilities if any new info just got a pass. When I saw the mason jars I thought "Poor controlled environment" ..must not be doing controlled UV/O2/temperature exposure. Then I saw the dollar bills in the water, and water samples and the various sand samples, including the "black sand" we wondered about from the photos of Tena Bar in recent times. Then I saw the dollar bill with the hole cut out, that approximately matches the size of the sample holder for the SEM. Put it all together, and I'm guessing you're looking for various mineral samples on the bills, and trying to replicate it on the dollar bill with current sand and water samples. I wondered about the year of the dollar bill. I've read that ink has changed subtly over the years, even for various batches of bills. It makes sense at this late date that only very stable kinds of analysis (like minerals, sand particles etc) could be accurately tested. So that's all the thoughts in my head. Obviously I have no idea what you're doing. But we're all about speculation here and beholden to no one! Which is a good thing. Science is a contact sport. Publish or Perish!