snowmman

Uh, for me, at least, the quotes are the only thing that's interesting. Am I missing something? Is there new evidence I scrolled past? (edit) I'm working on getting some stats on thread dysfunctionality. My gut feel is that statistically most threads on the internet are dysfunctional, i.e. accomplish nothing. I don't have the data right now. Working on it. I'm not sure if I post it, if that will change whether we are functional or dysfunctional though? (edit) I would note I have posted 1157 pieces of solid information. That's putting out!

Hey! we've not talked about Gossett in a while. Can someone summarize why he's a good match? I can see how he's better than Duane? What else is there? do we know?

This was actually a story in "The Shadow" series The full text is available for free online now, but here's a summary taste below. (funny: I guess dirigible + parachute was the "new technology") oh yeah, in the '30s they used to used the phrase "parachute leapers" Google news link gives some good ideas of the times back then (newspaper wise) http://news.google.com/archivesearch?ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&um=1&tab=wn&q=parachute+leapers articles as far back as 1890s. example: Female Aeronauts to Race. Aug 16, 1892 Wash. Post: Miss E. C. Crawford, of this city, has challenged Miss Rosa May, of Peoria, Ill, the seronaut and parachute leaper, to a test of skill, $200 a side, ... The Shadow: http://www.spaceports.com/~deshadow/reviews/shadow026.html 026 "Murder Trail" Vol. 5, No. 2 Published: 03/15/33 Submitted: 10/07/32 under the same title Author: Walter Gibson MURDER TRAIL was originally published in the March 15, 1933 issue of The Shadow Magazine. It all starts aboard the inaugral flight of the great dirigible Munchen where Captain Heinrich von Werndorff secrets a secret German agent aboard the dirigible. There, in a secret room especially built between the bulkheads, Baron Hugo von Tollsburg waits as he begins his mission, to travel undetected from Germany to America. But also aboard the dirigible is The Shadow. He has traveled in his guise as Henry Arnaud from Moscow to Friedrichshafen, where he was able to catch the derigible Munchen at the last minute. He recognizes that something sinister is going on, and as the flight finally flies above American soil, he discovers the secret room. Inside he finds the body of the baron; the secret agent has been murdered in his own secret room. The murderer has stolen the baron's papers and jumped from the dirigible in a parachute. He has escaped to somewhere in the Connecticut countryside.

What's the physical description of Ed? did he have black hair, balding? Age? Somehow I have the image of Ed Norton and Ralph Kramden stuck in my ed. I mean head.

Yes the futures market in Cooperography is very good. The year 2024: big money! I run a private market on the side for this. Options available. No SEC regulation!

fair enough Jo. Yeah, but if 100 million people are already like that, isn't the person who tacks in the other direction pretty cool too? There's no bragging rights in just being different, but then again there's no bragging rights in just being the same either.

Did he mention hiking with Duane? I've always wondered about that photograph, that appears to me to be hiking, with some mountains with spring/summer? snow on them. What did Ed look like? Was he fit looking? How old was Ed then? What year was the conversation? How did he fit helicopters, planes, and job description as pilot or mechanic all in that random 15 minute conversation? It doesn't make sense. (edit) related: May 31/June 1, 1967 Two USAF HH-3E ( Sikorsky S-61R ) made the first non-stop trans-Atlantic flight by helicopters , en route to the Paris Air Show. Nine aerial refueling were made by each aircraft from C-130 Hercules tankers at altitudes of between 300 and 2800 m and speeds of 200 km/h. The 6870 km from New York to Paris were flown in 30 hs 46 min.

Willy Sutton was a professional bank thief. Born Brooklyn, NY June 30, 1901. Died in 1980. Actually escaped out of jail several times. Tunnel from Eastern State Penitentiary. Another: disguised as prison guards carrying a ladder. Career ended in 1952 with a life sentence. Paroled and retired to Florida. His robberies said to total $2M. (~100 banks) He liked to use disguises. He once said he felt "more alive when I was inside a bank robbing it than at any other time in my life" A reporter supposedly asked him: "Why do you rob banks" He answered "Because that's where the money is" His co-wrote "I, Willie Sutton" and "Where The Money Was" When Willy Sutton was captured, a book in his possession was "How To Think Ahead In Chess". reference Time 1952: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,817124-1,00.html There is a medical phrase called "Sutton Law" in reference to him. It means: "Always perform at the outset the diagnostic test or therapeutic maneuver most likely to establish the diagnosis" Cooper doesn't sound anything like Willy Sutton. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Sutton http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/sutton/sutton.htm In his autobiography, he dismisses the quote: "Why did I rob banks? Because I enjoyed it. I loved it. I was more alive when I was inside a bank, robbing it, than at any other time in my life. I enjoyed everything about it so much that one or two weeks later I'd be out looking for the next job. But to me the money was the chips, that's all." "Go where the money is...and go there often." and in closing, from the fbi site: "Ironically, in 1970, Sutton did a television commercial to promote the New Britain, Connecticut, Bank and Trust Company's new photo credit card program."

why would you have a secret conversation with Ed while Duane was alive, that involved a conversation about jumping? What was the context?

But on the bright side!: To Althea. From Prison. "Stone walls do not a prison make, Nor iron bars a cage; Minds innocent and quiet take That for an hermitage; If I have freedom in my love And in my soul am free, Angels alone, that soar above, Enjoy such liberty." Richard Lovelace, written in prison (edit) or: "To DBC thread. From the banned Zing" :)

I agree. For Zing to offend, there have to be people who are offended. If we all agree we're not offended then Zing can do no wrong. Hey he gave a good post with good info for free and while banned. He's earned it! Give him a DBC thread A-license. No night posts yet though! (edit) Just noticed that the collision event that produced the first evidence of the gluon was in 1979 (logbook attached). I don't know if this is connected to the money find in 1980.

I checked this to see the publication date (I had already mentioned Sellick's 1971 book) I had first thought "Too late" But Zing is right. It was there in time. In fact there are more books pre-1971 that might have been useful. This is 4th edition in 1972 Gunby,R.A. Sport Parachuting Handbook the 1970's Textbook of Sport Parachuting Denver, CO, Jeppeson and Company. 1972, 4th Edition. Elsewhere I've found early editions though: 4th revision 1969 (162 pp) 5th printing 1971 (163 pp) I think what's called "4th Revision" is "4th printing" and that was indeed 1969 The 1969 copy is available for just $5 Oh wait there's more. The 1963 edition is the 3rd edition, 120pp Others Sellick published in 1961 "Skydiving The art and science of sport parachuting" Greenwood published in 1968 "Parachuting For Sport" "The Complete Sport Parachuting Guide" by Charles Shea-Simonds in 1971 I've attached the cover of the 1969 printing of Gunby. (edit) added cover of 1971 Greenwood

Thanks for the post Zing, I liked it. I was surprised that Ckret repeatedly said that if the grudge was primary, Cooper would have stated it when he got the microphone. I'm no shrink, but isn't that a narrow view of people with grudges? Cooper, the quiet guy seemed like the slow-burner type. He was probably used to internalizing crap? If Cooper did have a grudge (he said he did) and he was trying to not get caught, then airing his grudge would have been stupid as it would have disclosed something about himself. He seemed consistent in not disclosing much about himself, so why would he air his grudge? I'm guessing that he had a basket of grudges...in his mind layered in complexity. So that maybe also it just wasn't worth trying to explain it all to Tina. After all, what was she going to fix about any grudge? I'm just musing about why the grudge is expected to be aired. Just lashing out may have been sufficient for Cooper? In addition to needing the money. (edit) In fact, there's no grudge that a hijack addresses in any rational way. Maybe he was mentally both rational and irrational. Schizophrenic sort of.

agreed. And since all the FBI evidence has been released, that means we won't be seeing any!

http://www.northpole.ru/eng/skydive.htm Did Duane ever mention Llyushin-76 or Antonov-26's?

Yes, but why the gluons? Doesn't that drive you mad? Why the gluons?

Right! so it's fair to theorize that longetivity has more to do with enjoyment of the sport, whether it's social aspects, the actual events or whatever. People keep doing it cause it's fun. It might also explain why Cooper wouldn't have kept doing it. He might not have been about "fun" in the same way. I think we have to remind ourselves that Cooper is likely not about "mean" behavior, or 10% behavior. It's probably about 1% behavior. And not "bragging about being 1% behavior" like the Hells Angels do. But real 1% behavior/motivations. Kind of the sicker stuff where you turn your head away and say "that's not real life"...but it is.

reading that MFF paper... page 30 of the pdf "The U.S. Army did not initially support the freefall parachuting idea. Not until 1959, when the Strategic Army Corps Parachuting Team was formed at Fort Bragg, did the Army take a serious interest in freefall parachuting." So while the use of parachutes for flight crew emergencies has a longer history, I'm still comfortable with the idea of '62-'71 being a possible experience window...leaning towards civilian but who knows, maybe somehow military was involved. I'm also biased to the lower skill levels. Like PCA/USPA B level (or above)

Yes. We're not in disagreement. We just don't have numbers. For instance, it would be interesting to know if the fatality rate per # jumps, is constant regardless of years in the sport. by "# jumps" I mean a total of all jumps done in a year, by everyone within a certain bin of skill level...D license holders do more jumps per year? (guess) so even if they have a higher representation in fatalities (from that SA paper), it doesn't mean that risk is skewed towards D jumpers. My guess is that the whole "thing" is adjusted so that risk is constant across skill levels. I think the adjustment happens to a water level of acceptable risk..i.e. how many deaths before people say "that's nuts...no one should do that any more" It's like driving cars. What's an acceptable # of deaths for the benefit/cost tradeoff?

The most galling thing to skydivers must be the thought that a beancounter would analyze their behavior and just bin it the same way as any other human behavior. It's cold because it's just about making or losing money. Here's a nice paper from insurance folks, covering risk activities, in South Africa. (2004) Has some graphs https://www.genre.com/sharedfile/pdf/RiskInsightsNovember2004.pdf#page=15 It covered 6 main activities: Aviation Scuba Diving Auto Racing Mountain Climbing Commercial Fisherman Skydiving I thought the last two were interesting. Is it just coincidence that 377 has commercial fishing background?? On page 17, analyzing skydiving, it has this sentence: "The most experienced group of jumpers hold D license and this group accounts for 72% of deaths, following by student licensees at 12%" sure there's some statistics twisting there, but if true, I suspect some of the thoughts I stated before are not far off. (edit) HEY! I just saw that B license only requires 50 jumps? And I can get on a load for a night jump with just a B license? (not sure yet what B license was in '62-'71) (edit) Nice paper written by a military guy for thesis in '93..includes history of Military Free Fall (MFF). http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA272720&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf On page 20 of the pdf, it says that MFF students make an average of 28 freefall jumps? and then they're qualified for "night high-altitude jumps with combat equipment" Prior posts have gone on about how much "skill" is needed for a night jump because of disorientation etc. Has this skill requirement been overstated?

You may be right Orange1, or in denial, or just representing the people you come in contact with. Don't know. Remember I'm thinking about the full range of A to D licensees. (edit) OH: and we only care about the '62-'71 period. You may be describing "today" better? Interesting blog summarizing some academic/psych stuff that you guys will piss on, but that's fair enough. http://shut-up-and-jump.blogspot.com/2008/01/reversal-theory-skydiving.html "The reversal theory literature uncovers a number of clues as to what drives risk sport participants. The most relevant factor appears to be arousal/excitement-seeking. The study described in [1], analyzing expert (as opposed to recreational) performers in skydiving and motorcycle racing, showed higher arousal-seeking scores compared to marathon runners. Thatcher et al. reached the same conclusion in [4], associating individuals involved in risk sports with paratelic (excitement-seeking) dominance."

(I accidently overwrote this post. repost) I think all that matters is whether you could have gotten on a plane to do at least one night jump? from the Archway DZ: http://archwaysafety.blogspot.com/2007/05/night-jump.html "B. Qualifications 1. Skydivers participating in night jumping should meet all the requirements for a USPA B or higher license. 2. Participants should complete a comprehensive briefing and drill within 60 days before the intended night jump. a. The training should be conducted by a USPA Safety & Training Advisor (S&TA), Instructor Examiner, or Instructor, who holds a USPA D license. b. The training (including the date and location) should be documented in the jumper's logbook and signed by the USPA S&TA, I/E, or Instructor." (edit) confirmed at USPA site U.S. Parachute Association > About Skydiving > Glossary Persons holding a USPA B License are authorized to participate in the USPA collegiate 4-way formation skydiving event, perform night jumps, ...

It's also a mistake to believe that "breakthroughs" in a sport are only done by those at the currently perceived "top end" of the sport. Sports are always defined by rules, perceptions, cultural attitudes. There are precedents for "newcomers" who would be labelled "unskilled" for the times, doing something that is considered unprecedented but then turns out to be doable...i.e. the limit was mental, not physical. Newcomers are not burdened by the same mental things, or are crazily motivated to "prove" themselves quickly in a sport, and so can more easily achieve the breakthrough. Now sometimes obviously that's a false belief and they die or whatever. Yes, it's dangerous etc. But the reality is, that sometimes newcomers do break boundaries. It's just a fact. And yes sometimes they die trying.

Hope I am not missing your point again. IF you are looking at a hijacker with night jump experience, then currency requirements are important to allow you to advance in your jumping to be able to do a night jump. If he had done all this 12 years prior to the hijack, or you don't care about night jumps, then sure currency in 71 isn't an issue. right. If we agree some skills were necessary, the skills could have been acquired a while back and still be usable, because the gear hadn't changed enough such that the skills learned were unusable. I have a couple of guesses -Because of Cooper's age, he learned the skills up to 10 years earlier. Can't go back much further than that, because civilian jumping was just taking off around '60 say? -He didn't need to stay current in jumping in the US. Could he have stayed current some other way? Dunno. -He was non-military -There were a lot of non-military US citizens in Southeast Asia as part of the Vietnam war -He didn't necessarily stay in the US before or after the hijack. -The "mediterranean" skin color makes me think of a tan, as do the sunglasses. -I have no idea how the FBI conducted their search, so I'm just going to assume they weren't able to accurately search PCA/USPA membership from '62-'70. I have no idea.

Yes, it's coupled to the chances of you surviving the next time you make a jump.. I'm just a whuffo, so I can say this. But I think that belief that experience directly couples to survival, is just something you guys all believe in, otherwise you wouldn't keep doing it. I'm not sure if you guys keep a database with a consensus "cause" of every injury, that goes back a ways. I'd like to see the data on experience vs injury. My guess is that inexperience doesn't couple as closely as you'd like. Usually it's because the "thing" that gets done doesn't stay static..i.e. as you get more experience, you have to change the "thing" so the buzz stays the same. Maybe I'm generalizing only for some. There's a little bit of the drug addict idea of chasing the same initial high. It takes discipline I guess to not go too far. It's possible the risk gets dialed in so it's constant for an entire career? Dunno.