snowmman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vehPc7vuK20 The thing you gotta ask yourself: Why Bruce Hornsby? Hey, Tom introduced it with his mention of guns. Not my fault. Hit the weight bench! It's difficult to find Tom on the web. The only search that seems to work in Google to get a hit on him is: "a row of articulated dinosaur vertebrae" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22a+row+of+articulated+dinosaur+vertebrae%22+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

"He who asks questions only trains himself in asking questions" (Loa Tse) Hey Progress! Not a Yiddish proverb! :) The latest thing in Iraq is by no means the first. The CIA financed interrogation centers in every province of South Vietnam, as part of the Phoenix program, apparently put any Iraq torture stories in the pure novice category? But there are always grudges. Someone hates their wife, hates the government. Hates their life. Their mother, their father, their brother, their neighbor. Hate, hate, hate. Fact of life. That's why I called the "terrorist" label simply "fashionable". There's always been hate. I think the interesting question is "what makes people decide to act on the hate, in certain ways, as opposed to others". See the grudge thing isn't unique. Everyone has them. Everyone's an asshole. It's all about why act, and why act in that way? I think the more we understand that question and answer, for 1971, the more it helps. But then again, Cooper could have been just a random messed up dude. In which guess, rational thought won't get us there?

The money is pretty indestructible from what the BEP says. Maybe the experiment lifetimes are too long? What about rubber bands. Can you detect markings on the bills to estimate the width of the rubber band? If you take the verbal testimony of rubber bands that crumbled off, and get some data on what it takes to cause that (covered plus moisture should preserve?) then maybe you can use both bits of info to help steer the bill analysis. Another wild card: Can 3 bundles of wet money stay stuck together and travel as a single entity. The theory has been that a bag is needed to keep 3 bundles travelling in the river as a single entity. Yet we all know that a single bundle of bills will stick together and be hard to separate. If you take that to the extreme, how many bills do you have to stack up before the bundle no longer "sticks together" due to the adhesion between bills? Add some decomposition, and it's unclear that 3 wet decomposed bundles, can't stay together on their own when acted on by the river. Don't know.

Hey Cooper, I mean Jo, you got a grudge! The only problem I have with these "downfall of America" arguments, is that when I read the details of the real US history, I never see the striking contrast of "upfall" times? I think the upfall times are mostly fantasy, or lack of information, or specific memories for small classes of folks. In a lot of ways, the times, right now, are the best of times for the USA. Yahoo! lots of upside potential too! (edit) oh p.s. good articles Orange1, I'm reading thru them.

My Ed Norton reference, interestingly, was just a near miss. Honeymooners reference at bottom, due to Continental Air Services. This is an interview with a guy who was Peace Corps/USAID (not CIA) in Laos in the '60s. "Q: Would you like to tell us some basic facts about how you got to Laos? First of all your name and what you were doing when you were sent to Laos. From the Peace Corps to USAID, 1963-1965 KUHN: Okay. My name is Ernest C. Kuhn, Ernie Kuhn. I was in the Peace Corps in Thailand from 1963 through mid-1965 working in a...I'm going to use the politically incorrect term of Meo rather than Hmong because at the time we are talking about no one referred to anyone as Hmong...I was living in a Meo village up near the Thai/Lao border in Loei province. While I was in the Peace Corps two of our directors in Bangkok had been AID employees in Laos and were familiar with the program and basically recruited me or suggested that I might be interested in working up in Laos. They set up a trip for myself and four other Peace Corps volunteers the summer of 1965. We went up to Laos, were interviewed and I was offered a job immediately on contract at first and later on became a full Foreign Service officer. ... KUHN: I wasn't in the Forward Area Program, but they didn't really move around. They would be in one village basically conducting political, social and agricultural programs and things like that. Those people were in a more exposed area than people who were working in the clusters which was just general rural development work. The third section, the one that got all the raised eyebrows in Vientiane, and we were all suspected of not being AID employees. In fact, people would say to our face, “You people are all CIA agents and not AID people.” That section was the refugee relief program. This was the program that by 1966 was almost driving the AID program there. The refugee relief program was broad and included the whole school system, the medical system and, of course, the relief part. ... Q: Do you have any general number of people you were serving? KUHN: Well, there were times when we were feeding well over 300,000 people. Now, of course, that included people in the south, too. I suppose in the north at any given time we probably had upward to 200,000 or more people. Those people were mostly served by air. We had an extraordinary system using both Air America and Continental Air Services. People don't really give much credit to Continental because the popular perception is that Air America was the CIA airline and did all the work. But, in fact, a major part of the work was done by Continental Air Services. Bob Six who was the owner of Continental Airlines had started up this subsidiary to get a piece of the pie. Bob Six and his wife, Audrey Meadows who played the wife of Jackie Gleason on the Honeymooners, took a personal interest in the program. In fact, they would themselves come over to Sam Thong and even donated a jeep to Pop back in the days when AID was not giving him any support. So Continental was a major player." from http://international.loc.gov/master/mss/mssmisc/mfdip/2004/2004kuh01.sgm (edit) or better in pdf: http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNABZ296.pdf

Walmart has em this week for $299, and nobody gets trampled when they have a sale in their spectroscopy supplies section. 377

Tom said he had a decomposition test going. This surprised me, as my quick scan of the literature made me think it would be really difficult to do anything useful, without a lot of experiments and a lot of time. There is a lot of literature on cotton decomposition in soil. I know money is not cotton or cellulose, but it provides a starting point for understanding the affecting variables I think. Here are some papers. Many others. (the first is referenced a lot so its title can be well used for a google search) "Decomposition of cotton strips in soil; analysis of the world data set" http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/5048/1/N005048CP.pdf This is a big one. 180pp. a bunch of articles. "Cotton strip assay: an index of decomposition in soils" http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/4949/1/24%2520-%2520Cotton%2520Strip.pdf on methodology: "Some statistical problems in analysing cotton strip assay data" http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/5027/1/N005027CP.pdf Could Tom could really have a decomposition test going? It's possible it's a "soak in water and see what happens test"? Not sure. Be interesting to understand the rough outlines of what Tom is doing/planning in regards to "decomposition" as opposed to element analysis. It would be very interesting if a rate of decay could be established to interpolate to say loss of weight or something for the found bills. But I think there's too many variables? especially considering burial variables (oxygen levels or ???) I have no knowledge about this stuff, it'd be interesting to understand more. Oh p.s. who's paying for the palladium target and sputterer? Isn't that a couple thousand?

good one 377. but it kills me when we only get 99.9999% of the story. Did they eat the salami?

We just switched to cable, and I can't get the instructions thru the static on one of the channels like I used to. If I jam a fork in the toaster and point it North, I do hear some humming that I think is a Broadway show tune whose lyrics seem to be an encoded message. How is everyone else getting their instructions? My worst fear is the end of the world message is broadcast and I'm late and miss it.

I have been instructed to start digging up the weapons caches that were put "beyond reach" and start cleaning out the grease! Weird coincidence! (edit) Joke! for those of thick skulls.

You know when I pop my head out on the other side (it's Beijing, right Jo?) that The Night Clerk is going to be there and club me with a 4x4. That's how the movie ends.

I did it for the lulz

Just post the names, dates, and any other info. You don't need to pre-announce with dramatic whispers. If you've got something, you've got something. If you don't, you don't. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Cooper did.

Well now, the whole skydiving history question of "who was the first to jump a 727" is thrown up in the air. And the bragging rights for static lining a 727 too! I wonder if there were more jumps. It's not clear if all that footage was shot on one flight. I was thinking they wouldn't dump a full row of pallets, and two jumpers, on the very first test, would they? Oh, I found a website where a guy has a copy of the legal paper that John Willheim Productions signed with Air America to start work on the film. It was from 1969. All of the film seems consistent quaility, so I suspect it was all filmed after '69, the date of the paperwork. So it makes sense that what Leeker said is true: the filming was done somewhere in '70/'71. My random reading with morning coffee, stuff from the amazing dallas collection which we've mined before. This first url is for all the William M. Leary papers...accounts of Air America in Laos. Amazing details http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/aamnote.htm (this is accounts of spec ops in Laos '69-'73) http://www.utdallas.edu/library/uniquecoll/speccoll/aamnote/specop75.pdf Leary has names and talks about the personalities and interplay of individuals. It really adds depth to the history.

Hey cjsitfly: I usually don't tread outside this DB thread, but saw you posting on the 82nd airborne fatalities thread. Any thoughts you have about what kind of person Cooper might have been? Does he feel non-military to you, based on what we know? Or is there just not enough information? Seems like you have some good military static line experience. Throw out any thoughts you have that might be useful here! Sharp knives welcome too..

No. Is it available online? 377 TV? what's TV? Looks like something was on this morning on Discovery Channel? Is this a new flick? Dec 15, 11:00 am (60 minutes) D.B. Cooper TV-PG, CC A Hollywood screenwriter couldn't have better scripted D.B. Cooper's parachuted jump strapped with a stolen $200,000 from Northwest Airlines 727 in 1971. With sophisticated forensic techniques, new light is shed on this dark night of a criminal vanisher. In 2004, Discovery had this flick with Jo: "Flight From Justice: The Story of D.B. Cooper." Not only will Jo Weber be interviewed on the show, producers say FBI investigators will share their theories on who hijacked that plane nearly 33 years ago. That show was reviewed here: http://www.tv.com/the-fbi-files/flight-from-justice-the-story-of-d.b.-cooper/episode/535955/reviews.html?review_id=90577&flag=&tag=reviews;episode;continue;1

Things are down for the Holidays. People have gone many directions. Ckret has been on vacation. I expect things to resume after the Holidays. Georger Hey! Cooper counted on that too! :)

and you can throw in "That matches the general description" Hey here's a thought: Everyone thinks the 1971-72 composite is bad, right, and that for some strange reason, the '81 composite is better? What if the '71 composite is better? Even though cooper is mid '40s, he somehow looks like that. Wouldn't that be a good thing since it should narrow it down? Sometimes I wonder if we ignore clues because we don't like them for some reason. Agent H. in the Norjak book came right out said he dismissed a suspect because he seemed too "feminine". (Hmm does Agent H. have a preference???) That's just an example.

There is no way there can be 53,000 suspects for our purposes. Yes maybe that many "names". But a name is not a suspect. There's no "set of skills/set of behaviors/psyche/physical description/life story?" profile that matches 53,000. Other than maybe "breathes air". Now if you want to say "no skills required" and just a random dude, then sure. Any male in the world that matches the physical description, a little. But that's not interesting. For us, the only rational thing is to assume some set of things that narrows to a profile, that could lead to either a tip, or discovery of a suspect. Then theoretically suspects get resolved thru other means. It is most probable that Cooper will never be found. So don't stress about that. Stress about your "plan". Is it a good plan or a bad plan? If your plan is to prove Duane was Cooper, ...high stress for you for the rest of your life! Fare thee well! Sluggo apparently has no plan. He should make a plan. I don't know what Ckret's current plan is. Maybe The Plan of No Plan..ala Tesshu http://www.amazon.com/Sword-No-Sword-Master-Warrior-Tesshu/dp/1570620504 Tom Kaye's plan? Can always fall back on dinosaurs? My plan is information maximization. There is so little information/data, it is still easy to focus on a blade of grass. I would love to have 100,000 suspects. The problem is I don't! There are too few good suspects! Yossarian (and The Night Clerk) lives!

from a takhli oldtimer's website: http://www.takhli.org/more4.htm 29 Apr 00 I'm enjoying the website very much. I served at Takhli first as a TDY photo officer from the 600 Photo Sq. in Tan Son Nhut AB, Vietnam and later as Commander of Det 2, 601 Photo Flight (May 67- Mar 68)i. The photo of the bridge drop in the Takhli Times came from a KB-18 strike camera. The F-105, EB-66 and KC-135 combat crews, crew chiefs, maintenance, and support personnel there did a superior job with extremely difficult and continuously frustrating restrictions on air operations. I am so glad to see the web site that has been created. It brought back so many memories of that time and place 32 years ago. I even chuckled when I saw Nit Noi. ... The story of the CIA account was interesting too. Some airplanes that frequently flew to/from this base was a U-2 from a special compound behind the Thuds, Southern Air Transport 727's that moved cargo (I always wondered if D. B. Cooper of parachute fame got his start with the CIA operation mentioned) and occasional special mission KC-135's that stopped in after SR-71 refueling operations "up North". Another confirms that a U-2 was at Takhli in the late '60s http://www.takhli.org/more7.htm "25 Jul 03 I was a weather observer with Det. 12, 10th Weather Squadron from August 1966 to August 1967. Major Avenger was our commander at that time. While I was there the 355th Fighter wing was there along with some KC135's, RB66's and a black U-2 that belonged to the CIA in a secret compound. "

Keeping track of what was what in Laos was evidently complicated. I'm interested in the intermingling of US civilian and military personnel. Sounds like everyone did everything. from http://books.google.com/books?id=fh_y5IFSByUC&pg=PA84&#PPA84,M1 "Although the civilian air carriers in Laos operated under separate USAID, CIA, and USAID/RO (DOD) contracts, aircraft crews often performed work where the contracts where "mixed." It was not unusual for a single pilot to fly a variety of missions, both military and civilian related, over the course of a day. For example, morning duty at a Lima site could involve the movement of food supplies, while the afternoon assignment might entail the movement of FAR or SGU troops. This complex system was managed by an "Air Support Branch" (ASB) within the USAID/RO. The ASB, in close coordination with the contract air carriers and the "customers", would publish at Udorn and Vientiane a daily flight operations schedule. However, with the aircraft often operating at the direction of on-scene USAID, CIA and USAID/RO officials, success was largely dependent upon responsive and flexible air crews"

yeah, you're right georger. Sorry about that. I'll take the youtube video down in a couple days. Oh well, back to the trenches! Thanks for keeping us on track, georger.

Okay, now we're searching for a couple things, in addition to what 377 mentioned (major props to 377 for the Leeker info). Ckret has gone missing. Not clear who has nabbed him. But Tom Kaye still has Cooper bills. They're each worth $2-$3k. So Ckret will likely show up to reclaim them at some point. Tom K: That's when you have to nab him. 4 days of loud Nine Inch Nails and no sleep, should be enough to get the truth out of him. It's not torture, so go for it. The Night Clerk: Last sighted at Portland FBI office. May frequent Chinese restaurants. Details on getting English teaching jobs at this site may help find him, since he is supposedly on the run back to China. http://beijing.usembassy-china.org.cn/teach.html Jo: The Ringleader. Should be considered insane, therefore very dangerous. Duane: Sold life insurance to the static line jumpers in the 727 video. Therefore must be considered primary suspect.

Okay, I snipped and uploaded it to Youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrqdmXxBZjI Comment there, or here, with insight! I think it's pretty good. about 2 1/2 minutes. I noticed there are two static line jumpers. I had thought the no-helmet guy was just jumpmastering. But it appears he jumped too! maybe he got carried away with the moment. No helmet, no jumpsuit, no goggles? Not sure if he's the 2nd jumper though. What think? He's in full-on Cooper mode: short sleeve white shirt. (edit) It looks like the two jumpers may have been the loadmasters for the pallets?? You can see the impact they get when the air stream hits them. The 2nd jumper is going fully horizontal with his deployed chute. Attached snap of that for fun. In the mass pallet drop, each pallet has two parachutes? Ckret has said Boeing had data from a "food drop" test. If the pallets are food, I guess the jumpers are the chefs!

Cooper is worth less than the idea of Cooper. I'm always surprised when people don't realize ideas are more valuable than anything tangible you can touch. Once it's just something you can touch, it's commodity. The physical Cooper is just commodity. nickel and dime. Another one born every minute. gotta run. Going to edit and get the 727 airdrop snippet up on youtube for the bandwidth challenged. Oh snowmman you humanitarian!