snowmman

gunther, seemingly from conversations with Agent H. seemed to imply it was unclear if it was the same placard. He quoted mechanics as saying placards were on both the inside and outside and that the outside ones were known to fall off. Who knows what's true in that area. Do 727s have placards on the outside? But we've heard very little from the FBI saying the placard was positively linked, right? I think it basically adds nothing to the case.

just had a random thought. I know I'm stuck in Vietnam. But the idea of getting a drink, and telling the pretty vietnamese girl to come sit down besides you, is pretty much the hostess bar situation in Vietnam in the late '60s. (and I guess still is in a lot of areas).

I read something interesting in Gunther. Remember how the FBI liked to brag that the search at least discovered that body in the well? Well in Gunther, the story goes that the search team came thru, but then later some artifact collectors busted thru the wood boards in the well, looking for bottles or whatnot, and saw the body. Thought that was interesting. I was going to research it more, but I don't think there's much detail. Interesting enough to question whether the FBI or search teams were involved at all in that body find. Funny huh? (edit) I had mentioned, that if you ignore all the Clara stuff, that Gunther appeared to have done some amount of research, in terms of reading news articles and talking to Agent H.

No I remembered everything Jo had said before about the glasses. It was garbage when she said it, and it's garbage now. And those sunglasses she posted aren't a good match in my view. I am interested in finding a good match for the sunglasses, circa 1971. If anyone finds pics, post away. I was thinking about the old Oakley razor blades. You know how guys who wanted to appear "hi energy" etc used to wear them. I wonder if the older Cooper picked the wraparounds because of some self image thing...thinking about him being a risk taker also. It kind of goes against the image of the middle-aged downtrodden guy in a black suit. So the sunglasses seem interesting. (as does the choice of clip-on vs real tie) I have no idea but Im even wondering if wrap- arounds were that common in '71, except in urban areas? Most men wore standard rim sun glasses, shooting glasses, tc. Jumpers might have preferred wraparounds if they could get them? Who in the PDX/SEA area sold wrap arounds? Maybe Im all wet but its a question. Georger I've been looking at movies like Easy Rider from the '60s but haven't seen the exact glasses. People talk about "beatnik" style starting to wear them then ('68-'71) but I've not found a good period pic yet. I think it's a good example of a phrase "wraparound" not really capturing all the detail that's in the sketch, with respect to the glasses. The verbal descriptions do make note of "all plastic" which coincides with the drawing. No metal rims. (Peter Fonda had gold metal rims in Easy Rider)

http://www.halls.md/body-mass-index/av.htm for 6', 180 lbs, age 45 years, male, the calculator says the body is in "normal range"...at 29th percentile compared to others of same height and age. 29th percentile, though, would mean, on the "light" side? His height puts him at just 25% of all males of that age? So he's like the bottom 1/3 of a group that's 25% of the male population? Hmm...I think maybe he normally had more weight? At 200 lbs/6' they say "Overweight" but that puts him at 53rd percentile... Let's see 195 lbs/6'/45 years is 48th percentile. So let's assume he was more likely around 195 and had lost some weight, so he had the thin/gaunt face shown in the 1971 sketch..i.e. more like 185 at the time of the hijack. His height still puts him at just ~25% of the male population? (I'm looking at a guess for the group between 5'11 and 6'1 at age 45) I'm just making some rough swags here...not looking real close. (edit) added BMI chart. 185 lbs/6' puts Cooper at 25.1 kg/m**2 BMI.

Another thing is the weight/height relationship. 180/185 lbs? for 5'11/6' It wasn't like he was an overweight guy, considering he was 45 years old. Here's data from 1988 to 1994 for white males, from the NHANES II survey in America, showing distribution of age/height and distribution for age/weight. From http://www.halls.md/chart/height-weight.htm "Men's height after age 20 tends to remain the same until after age 50 years, then a gradual decline in height occurs. The thick red line in the middle of the chart shows the "median" (50th percentile) height of men" SO: Cooper in his eighties would be shorter now. on the weight chart: The red lines show "percentiles". The thick red line in the middle is the 50th percentile, which indicates that 50% of the population of Men have Weight heavier than the line, and 50% are lighter. Similarly, the highest red line, the 95th percentile line, indicates the weight where 95% of the male population is lighter. I've not digested the charts yet for any information. Interpret away!

As an example of myths, people might think of the Cooper glasses as Ray Ban 2030 Predator 8's, that Tommy Lee Jones wore in "Men in Black". They're not though. And they're not like what Tom Cruise wore in "Risk Business" (Wayfarers) I went thru the Ray Ban current collection and attached those that I think are close. I haven't done a final pick for what I think are the best match to the glasses in the sketch. (edit) I attached the '71 sketch with glasses. I think I'm voting for RB2016's as best match? What you think?

orange1 you mentioned note writing a couple times, but Cooper never wrote any of the notes, right. He dictated. the only note was the one he passed, which he recovered. sluggos site http://n467us.com under facts and myths, has the right details on the note stuff. Actually I have to keep reminding myself which interactions were with Flo and which were with Tina. Before I die, I have to remember to leave a note saying I am not any famous unsolved mystery criminal. Can you imagine having someone spend years investigating your life the way Jo has for Duane? What a waste.

No I remembered everything Jo had said before about the glasses. It was garbage when she said it, and it's garbage now. And those sunglasses she posted aren't a good match in my view. I am interested in finding a good match for the sunglasses, circa 1971. If anyone finds pics, post away. I was thinking about the old Oakley razor blades. You know how guys who wanted to appear "hi energy" etc used to wear them. I wonder if the older Cooper picked the wraparounds because of some self image thing...thinking about him being a risk taker also. It kind of goes against the image of the middle-aged downtrodden guy in a black suit. So the sunglasses seem interesting. (as does the choice of clip-on vs real tie)

I found an intriguing site that has info and pictures on cigarettes smoked by troops in WWII. it sells reproduction packages (who knew people would collect that?) in any case, there's an interesting comment about Raleigh: "The often less desired Raleigh Cigarettes. Still a great display piece, and seemingly a default cigarette issued to the frontline Joes." http://www.wwiisupply.com/smokes.html another site notes: "the way we had to buy two packs of Raleigh cigarettes in order to get one of Lucky Strikes during the shortages of World War II? ..." i.e. Lucky Strikes were preferred. Raleighs more plentiful. Found another site that showed the bulk packaging the shipped the Raleighs in, to the WWII troops. Maybe the Raleighs were just another sign of "not much money in Cooper's pockets?"

I've been thinking about the idea of the sunglasses possibly being a special purchase just for the hijack, i.e. a disguise. This was when I realized, from the sketch and description, that they were wraparound plastic. Not aviator style, not Ray-Ban Wayfarer style. I was wondering why a 45 year old man in 1971 would purchase wraparound shades. My bias thinks they would skew younger. But maybe they were bought just for the hijack? I don't have a picture yet of wraparounds from that era, that I think are a good match. I guess Jo will be telling us shortly about Duane's wraparounds, in the safe at LDS headquarters.

Duane has completely different cranial proportions. Complete different ear & lobe proportions. Now, would it not be hilarious that we have been sitting here for months dicussing this seriously? And Jo has ben at it for ears, and they arent even the same primate! ? Hilarious! I am now going to really split this shit open. Where, oh Jo?, where is a good photo of Duane? A straight up facial shot? A why withold that for 13+ years? And anyone spent 5 mins discussing this over the years without even so much as a real photo of the guy? Get off the grift, Jo Blo! most of the comparisons I've seen have Duane wearing glasses which doesn't make sense to me. Jo was hard pressed to find any pictures of Duane without glasses of the right age...because he wore them all the time. Remember I dismissed Duane solely because of that. I couldn't understand these "matches" done at Vegas with glasses on.

Yup. One thing I picked up from the sketches was the horizontal wrinkles on the forehead. That's why I was asking people a while back, to describe the sketches using half a dozen phrases. That would address the "key features" thing georger mentions. We've all bought into this brain wash that the sketch is about ears and forehead and balding. It's got more than that. I think people have patterned us to get emotional about the sketch...i.e. read presumed behavior about the "middle aged man" or the "ADD engineer" etc. It's just a sketch. A visual encoding of some amount of information. It's about features and distances and shapes and inches. If it wasn't, then my 3d heads wouldn't be able to be able to be done by software, and still look somewhat like the sketches!

I agree Georger. If we believe it's a good sketch, people can't seem to make good comparisons based on simple measurements. My software basically just makes a bunch of measurements from a drawing or two, and builds the 3d head from that. We should be talking about inches, not subtleties of skin tone, or smirks, or whatever. Sheesh! I've always believed that Duane got in the show partly because people aren't used to looking at guys from the mid '60s. I do have a lot of pics of guys in the mid '60s of close to the right age. here's one I grabbed in just a couple seconds. This guy at first glance seems "close" but his features are too masculine for Cooper. Interestingly, he has a real black (thin) tie. Cooper's tie was actually not as thin as this. So even though we say Cooper's tie was thin, in the mid '60s people wore thinner. Now by '71...I dunno. But maybe the clip on tie gives us more than we know. I really wish I knew how much wear that clip on tie had. If it was new or old. If old, how old. Any other trace evidence on the tie. Oh well. I should just keep posting "random '60s dude of the day, every day". If anyone objects, my answers will be: 1. Please continue. 2. The experiment requires that you continue. 3. It is absolutely essential that you continue. 4. You have no other choice, you must go on.

drink? nerves. muscle or other pain somewhere. Maybe stomach in knots. Maybe used to having a drink to ease some kind of stress induced pain. that's my thinking. He's gotta know it's a performance inhibitor if things go to shit. So the need for it outweighed the possible negatives. Not a heavy drinker, so it's not like he's gotta get shitfaced to get in a fight. Just something to sooth something? (edit) Oh I forgot all the stuff Ckret said about spilling the drink. I guess the theory was the drink was a feint as a way to get the stewardess, for delivering the note. Either way, the smokes were more long term behavior?

orange1 said: Ckret was quoted as saying not one piece of evidence linked Gosset to the hijack. He suggested they use a private lab to do a DNA profile and then he'd compare to the FBI profile. Where is Ckret? You mean Major Major? You have to make an appointment to see him. He jumps out the window then, though. The CID man is looking for Major Major too. He won't come to the mess hall either. He wants all his meals in his trailer. And Colonel Cathcart has upped the number of missions again. So no one can leave. Every time we come close to the number of posts required, Cathcart ups the number.

orange1 murmured from the bottom of the globe: ok if Cooper was 45 in 1971, then he was 18 in 1944 and HIGHLY likely to have been drafted for WWII right? maybe picked up smoking then? But maybe not a continuous smoker. But then again, maybe yes, if he was conscientous enough to start worrying about trying to smoke filtered? maybe only smoked when nervous or during high stress times? If he was in SE Asia in the '60s for some reason, could have maybe not picked up smoking until then? It's funny, we want to say Cooper just "winged it" like a doofus, but he had no problem having a couple of smokes. seems pretty relaxed. But yeah, I should do something about the teeth.

hey good point. I drink a lot of coffee and I get the some of the same effect as smoking, I think. Dentist is always on me to do the whitening thing. man, first it's the hair, next the teeth. high maintenance. :) I tried doing a little spray paint for hair in photoshop, but decided it was best left to imagination. Hmm I guess I'm jumping back and forth between '65-'75 and today. Back then the teeth would be reasonable? Maybe by now, it wouldn't be a smile that shows so many teeth? Older guys don't smile so much like that? or ??? Maybe I should change the age advanced one to be a less toothy smile. Hey I was looking at Gossett's older photos..he's actually a reasonable match...although I don't think his face is wide enough at the cheeks?. And the hair seems wrong to me. Too much hair on Gossett? Gossett's eyebrows always seemed wrong to me, but I dunno. so what about the skin tone in the Southeast Asia (Takhli) video? What would you call that skin tone? (starting at 1:00)

This is just trivia. But we were talking about skin tone and tans etc, specifically around southeast Asia. This video provides visual data for the question "If you were a young air force pilot of European-looking ancestry at Takhili Air Base in 1970, being affected by the climate there, what might your skin color look like?" There are a number of pilots in a briefing room starting at 1 minute into this video. Some good closeups, up to 1:34 or so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M28spwDmOIo and only wussbags smoked filters! (see pilot take a drag, no filter of course!) Shot sometime '64-'70.

No I got those. Are you recommending that I fold them in somehow? ??? that very first one is so different that I think it's ignorable? aren't the next two just the 81 composite? Are they something else? (edit) are you thinking the 81 composite doesn't look like the stuff I posted? I'm not sure what you're saying.

Okay this is just one image. Started with the 71 sketch as usual, switched to using photo realistic texture for the skin et al, rather than texture extracted from the sketch. used texture from an older male, morphed the 3d a little using age advance. Added smile. In my minds eye, I'm thinking of Cooper has that crotchety old fart down the street, who's simultaneously always bitching and laughing at the world, like he knows some shit that no one else does. You know that guy? the one with no friends/family? That's the Cooper in my minds eye. The one who somehow didn't get caught. Then again, could be a dead guy in the Columbia. I like this one. Sure it looks like a lot of old farts, but Cooper evidently did look like a lot of guys. Doesn't everyone?

After listening to the soliloquoy, with it's familiar beat and cadence, and softly remembered words and phrases, the assorted seedy characters slumped over the bar, smiled, in wonderment at the ability of one to get the words just right, just the same, every time, opening their eyes slowly, and reaching for their empty beer glasses...because they knew after each recitation of the immortal words, Snowmman would always, no matter how late, no matter how plastered, as the token acknowledgement to one whose brain still functioned at some level, in defiance of the years at the bar...Snowmman would yell out to the bartender: "Round for the house! On me!" (edit) "The FBI has NEVER revealed all of the suspects, but you can bet out of the 1000 plus that one of them had some kind of contact with Duane Weber. " One can bet on anything. That would be a "prop bet" I couldn't find it under celebrity prop bets, but if you want to wager, you can bet on the next celebrity to be charged with DUI? Is that good enough? here: http://www.wagerweb.com/sports-betting/celebrity-props-celebrity.html

The nice thing about software, is that it has to reduce vagaries to black and white statements, in order to accomplish anything. I was intrigued by these comments in the help. Got me wondering. Was Cooper "attractive" ??? What say girls? Was it just the hairline that works against him? or ??? # Creating Attractive Faces. * Everyone has personal preferences, but on average, the most attractive faces are those that are close to the average. * Psychologists have found that the most attractive female faces are those which look like the average 17 year-old female, in which the degree of femininity is exaggerated by about 25%. * To achieve this in FaceGen Modeller, select the race you want, slide the age to 17, move the gender just past 'female' and bring the caricature values as close to average as you think necessary. * The most attractive male faces are those which look like the average 25 year-old male, but with a slight amount (5%) of femininity ! * Attractive faces are also more symmetric, so reduce the amount of asymmetry - but leave a little to keep the face looking real.

ya, I suspect a fair number of DZ.com'ers would like some more hair too? :) Hair is hard. Also hair is with the paid software, which is expensive. I think it's hard to computerize hair, with the current state of the art? I was thinking I could just airbrush in some black to get the hair lines we like, but then again, there could be so much variance in Cooper in any pictures that might be around...I'm not sure if it's worth it? I think today, our use of sketches is different than 1971. Today, people aren't going to remember what someone looked like in '71. So a sketch is only useful in terms of comparing it to photographs in the '65-'75 time frame, I think. The variation in the top hair in the '71 sketch compared to the '81 sketch, makes me think that Cooper's hair was not well defined, other than receding, black, and maybe the sideburns. (edit) I found another program I'm going to try.

Okay on this set, I was thinking Danny Boy was getting all emo on the flight, and that maybe the '81 eyebrows were really the artist trying to capture a sadness idea. So I started with the 71 sketch again, and turned the eyes a bit (not staring straight ahead), dialed in some sadness on the eyebrows (affects the inner eyebrow, coming down more towards the nose, like the '81 sketch?) ..drooped the left eye a bit...added some weight, a little more forehead than I had before, some more ear...a slightly different camera angle, skin tone a little different, and then did some genetic mutations with whatever dinosaur DNA I could find laying around. (Damn, have the Velociraptors got out again last night?) Oh, and dialed it so he's saying "ee-e.." like in "Cheeeeese" attached. (edit) I added a copy of it with the 71 fbi sketch on the right, so you can visually determine whether you think it's reasonable, based on that sketch.