snowmman

Compared to the rest of the stuff going on in the '60s and the '70s with the US govt, (and that we know about and is well defined now).....this little hijack (1 out of hundreds) is nothing. There were much more brutal hijacks internationally. The money was nothing. So Cooper jumped out of the plane. That was nothing too, compared to what people were doing in those days. The only thing that makes 305 interesting, is the media attention, and the reaction of the masses. And that it was the first of the skyjacking parachute events, and that Cooper never was caught. Sure the FBI may or may not have dropped the ball on the investigation. But that's just a separate issue and they were plenty busy with other stuff. The bottom line is that there's nothing about Flight 305 that's worth a conspiracy. How about that hijack where it looked like the guy was going to make the pilot fly into the nuclear power plant, before they said yes to his demands? Do you know about that one Jo? Or the one where the guy was going to fly a plane into the White House for an apparent plan to assassinate Nixon? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Byck Flight 305 is really a cartoon. That's why it's fun to discuss. It's just a guy with a parachute and some money. Jo: I think you need to move on to the 9/11 conspiracy forums. They would embrace you. It's all technical stuff, but you could get up to speed pretty quick. The amount of US history that you don't know Jo, but is freely available, makes the trivial little things you shout out about, just sound real silly. Go read some history. There's plenty of stuff to do with the rest of your life that's fun, if you're not having fun here. We're having fun. Maybe we'll find Cooper too! (edit) In 1972, hijackers took over a plane with over 30 people on board and threatened to crash it into a nuclear research reactor at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. The hijackers demanded a $10 million ransom, and when their demands were rebuffed, forced the pilot into a steep dive towards the reactor that ended when the airline offered $2 million to the hijackers. The hijackers forced the plane to Havana, where they were captured and arrested (Duncan Mansfield, AP/Washington Post, Sept. 19). They wanted a $10 million ransom, 10 parachutes and 10 bulletproof vests. ... more at http://articles.latimes.com/2001/sep/23/news/mn-48746

I pointed out before, that I think it appears to be especially difficult for the guys, because Jo knows how to manipulate certain emotions. And does freely. When things get difficult, the emo knob gets turned up. It's hard not to respond to that. I find it best to pretend she's just another guy posting. Makes it easier for me.

yeah it's good stuff. But I thought we touched on this a little bit already. I know that the high numbers of smokejumpers recruited was already discussed. (from articles at the smokejumpers.com site). I thought they mostly were kickers though. I only found one case of a smokejumper involved in the insertion program. I thought the MACV-SOG guys led those teams, mostly, or always?. There was one guy with smokejumper background who was higher up in the organization I think. But I don't think the insertion teams were part-time smokejumper work? (edit) just air drops of various kinds. Although there were mentions of "special projects", left undefined. Orange1: the stuff on Intermountain is interesting. I never pursued the details of what they worked on at Marana. Be interesting to know more. Also: if you can find if the smokejumpers did anything other than act as kickers, that would be interesting. (edit) and you saw the pic of the insertion team smokedumper outfit I posted right? So they must have been some passing of technology/knowledge.

I would probably use it opposite from the way you say. I'd be looking for jumpers that didn't progress in a way that might be considered "typical"...i.e. jumpers that didn't get a SCR number, or didn't advance to D, etc. All those guys would be the normal folks. Looking for the messed up dude instead (if he existed in the records. Possibly not). I'd spend more time poring over old records, than filming for the Today show! Unless the old records were already squeezed dry. Then I'd be on the Today show saying "The old records were squeezed dry..it's either someone who jumped without membership, or maybe a little military experience".. Or maybe I'd just get on a thread at DZ.com and cross my fingers?

Man, if jumpers are as tight as people say here, who were those guys who static-lined the 727? Wouldn't they have bragging rights for life? I mean trivia-question-wise, they were first to jump a commercial jet? The C-141's were in play in the mid '60s, so military paratroops were jumping jets, and there were earlier tests right? But a real commercial jet jump. They were first, right? Wouldn't their money be no good at the bar, for life? Why not take advantage of that?

heh! I'll drive up to the DZ and talk some smack about how the stickers are all from my Dad, and how when I was growing up, He told all these stories and I wanted to jump but he would never take me to the old DZ's for some reason...so he finally taught me all by himself...one hand flying the plane, the other pushing me out when I was 12. That's why I was so confused when you guys talked about jumping like it was a tight social thing. He always said "Man was born alone, Man was meant to jump alone". You mean maybe he was just messed up? I guess just a weird coincidence.

The records may have been more complete in '71. What we really need is a post from Ckret saying: "In 1971, records were obtained from USPA going back to 1965 (or earlier?) and a list of suspects in the NW created that matched the physical description. They were all checked out, and confirmed not to be Cooper". Without knowing what aspects of that statement are true or not true, spending time at USPA would be a waste. I've noticed that Jo tried to create a myth that something like this was actually done, when she said we were looking at military-related folks, because all jumpers had been checked out. (I wonder how she knows that. Is Jo FBI/CIA?. If she says she is, then I'll know she's not. Or if georger says she is. Or if Tom says he's got an experiment that proves it :))

well, i must confess i was in my alternate vehicle: '88 toyota pickup 4x4. Has kinda big tires, but wouldn't say extremely jacked up. It's kind of a beater. 6 cylinder though! So you think I need to get a bunch of stickers? That would be good with the ladies? Can I just click somewhere at DZ.com to get them. Don't tell me they're only available at a real DZ? that would suck. I need to design my "Cooper Lives" sticker. start selling those.

after a knife fight with a 70 year old plumber.... actually Thom Lyons, on his excellent web site, has posted a copy of his 1965 PCA license, and an apparently later PCA license. The two provide good info. Just provide link rather than copying Thom's stuff. http://60sjumper.skydiveworld.com/pca.jpg On the first (blue) There is no photo, no height/weight/hair/eye stuff like the USPA license I posted from 1973. One the second (orange) there is photo, DOB, height, weight, eye, hair I think we can date the 2nd PCA license. There are two examiner signatures, which would be required yearly? USPA started in 1967. I don't think Thom started before the '65 card?, so the orange PCA card is likely '66 and '67? SO: what this tells us is that PCA cards, and then USPA, were tracking DOB, height, weight, eye, hair by '66? Is this what people remember? I wonder if there's a file at USPA from then with the info. Who typed the cards? Where they typed at the main office and mailed to recipients??? How were the yearly stamps handled? At the main office? Oh, and don't get excited about Thom: blue eyes, brown hair, and he was just 26 in 1971. Although, thinking about Whitney, maybe that made him a PRIME SUSPECT in 1971. :) JOKE!

I just got back from going to Home Depot. And there's a van in front of me, with two orange ladders on the roof. ~16' extension ladders. White van. Didn't get a look at the guy. There's two round stickers in the left rear window. I think one was USPA. A bumper sticker that says "If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you" Another sticker on the right rear window that said something about Skydiving. I was literally just 3 feet behind this vehicle. It about 7:30 pm. He turned left. I didn't see where he went when I entered Home Depot. I should have gotten a photo, per Jo's lead. So that's the closest I've ever come to a skydiver. My heart is still going! I would have stayed in pursuit, but I remembered Ckret is off the thread...oh well. :)

I was surprised by a recent post saying that McCoy was smart, except for opening his mouth. It seems to me McCoy was consistently dumb. Here's an article that points out that not only McCoy have a conversation with Utah Highway Patrolman Robert Van Ieperen beforehand, but that McCoy's sister-in-law had called Ieperen during the hijacking, saying McCoy wasn't home and she was 'scared to death' because he had previously tried to enlist her in a hijacking scheme. No wonder they were on McCoy so fast. (Ieperen relayed all that to FBI) And McCoy used a handwritten note and left it on the plane. I guess there were fingerprints also, but unclear if they could have been used to "find" McCoy. This is the first time I noticed the sister-in-law's report mentioned, with regard to McCoy. (4/10/72 paper)

We know little about the FBI investigation. Ckret says it was a good effort. Bill Whitney was questioned for 5 1/2 hours. On 12/7/71 the attached article was in the Nevada State Journal. Evidently Bill Whitney of Seattle was questioned and had to provide an alibi. Well he was balding, and wore dark glasses a lot. And he was 5' 0" ...that's right, 5 feet tall. And he weighed 140 lbs. And he's only 33. And he was a co-holder of the northwest altitude record at 30,000 feet? Other than those minor discrepancies compared to the profile, sounds like a great suspect. :) I guess he was one of the "1000 suspects" Sounds like he got the finger because he was balding and wore sunglasses. Good example of how people focused on the sunglasses and balding, to the disregard of anything else? The worst thing about the 1971 sketch was probably the sunglasses. Then the tie. How many jumpers showed up at the DZ wearing a tie? Even today, how often? Do you know how many jumpers wear a tie at work? (Or what the women wear at work?) There were probably 10,000 civilian jumpers in the US. (edit) That's the early 60s. a lot more by '71 Somehow, Bill was culled as worth talking to. Sounds more likely the FBI did no investigation, just responded to phone-in tips. Which I guess were just reactions to newspaper articles. Cluster-F*** by definition? (edit) or maybe talking to guys at DZs in '71 and asking "who do ya think?"

How come I can see pictures of jumpers today jumping with sandals? The way I figure it, if you're going to do the hijack jump in '71, you're only going to do it once. Any sad sack could do it in good gear. To be able to talk about it still in 2008? Gotta do it in a suit and sandals, at night in the rain. Forward-looking. Knows kids are always breathing up your ass with the next big thing. Or like you say, could just be a dumb ass. Who likes to have the fuel trucks ready when they land. Time is money!

well, yeah, she said she was female, and I thought she was female....till the wig fell off. I said I had to pay for that one. Not exactly dollars. "negotiable" currency is context dependent. Hey, you know there's no evidence Cooper could ID Tacoma, is there? I'm doing this from memory, someone can correct me if they check the notes. The plane was circling right, when this Tacoma ID happened? He knows he's going to Seatac, which stands for Seattle-Tacoma. So a random guess while circling: it's either Seattle or Tacoma. So you say to the stew: Isn't that Tacoma? You're either right or you're wrong. Turns out you guessed right. I can't see how a little exchange like that, turned into: "he could ID Tacoma from the air" There was no additional knowledge required, was there? Am I missing something?

Okay, so I'm got my photoshopped 1969 Cooper Bills, so that's done. This next step cost me. I had to buy some old jumper drinks until he passed out, then I went thru his wallet and found his old A license. I figure it's ethical cause I paid for the drinks, right? A woman wouldn't have paid for his drinks, so I figure I'm still on the good side. In any case, I was surprised to see in 1973 that they recorded your D.O.B, height, weight, hair, eyes, sex and a picture, with a seal? just like a driver's license. And then there were annual stamps like postage stamps? It says the photo needs the USPA seal, and you have to return the license to the USPA for annual validation? Who typed up these licenses? (this one was typed). When did they start recording all the physical data and photos? Did they keep a copy of this info at the USPA main office? Does anyone have a PCA or USPA license from the early '60s? I'm wondering what they look like. I need to plant one in Duane's van, if I can find it. (see attached.. all identifying info has been redacted) were they all red in 73? (A licenses)

I just noticed an ashtray in that Issaquah boot rack 1985 pic. Got me wondering. What percentage of 45 year olds smoked in 1971? Is our fixation on Raleighs misleading us? i.e. is it likely Cooper stopped smoking (with a probability that matched the decrease in smoking by other males since then) Also: if the percentage of smokers was high, then fixating on the smoking doesn't create a very big qualifier (as compared to other things like height/weight etc)

didn't do a lot of tracking dives in those days i take it...? as late as 1985, the boots seemed ankle-laceup-style? This picture is from Issaquah in 1985, showing the boot rack. When did these kind of things stop being the norm?

found this chinese language show on D.B. Cooper. It's cool hearing them say "D.B. Cooper" put it on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAd3_fNCoww&feature=channel_page They assembled video from a variety of sources. It may not have been on real tv, but just online?? put it up on youtube so it'd be more accessible. Mostly patched together from other vids already out there. I thought it was rough going thru the German Discovery Channel vid. This is rougher! There are some snaps I think I could get that are new. Haven't done that yet. I think I saw a different angle of the trench dug at the Ingram money site. We had seen a photo of the prof crouched in the trench, but this shows that video was taken of that trench too?

well if that concept was also true in 1971, and Cooper was 45 in 1971, then looking for him jumping at the DZs then pretty much didn't make sense? (I could never understand why jumpers who were in their 30's in 1971, acted like it made sense for the FBI to talk to them?)

Nah, I figure this is a group therapy thing. You sit around, and read the other guy's posts, and say to yourself "Well at least I'm not as messed up as that guy" :) Although I'm reminded of the line a guy gave my wife in the grocery store, after she said she was married. "Isn't everyone?"

:) I had actually glanced at that thread. I was thinking, after all this Cooper stuff, "How hard could it be to find Vic" There's a fair number of posts at DZ.com where someone's looking for an old buddy. Everyone should be findable..it's just a matter of effort. I wonder what the hit rate is for posts that are looking for an old buddy, and people post at DZ.com and someone answers. I guess it depends on whether the guy continued jumping in his older years? It would be interesting to know what percentage of jumpers continue jumping, if they jumped when they were young.

But he presumably wasn't in denial - seeing as there are plenty of photos of him in glasses?? As an aside, surely the US has an eyetest as a requirement for a driver's license?? Unfortunately, people are inherently stupid, and will wear glasses for the eye test, and never wear them again. Plus, you only get the eye test once (at least in PA) and never again. I think I'm in the category peregrinerose outlines. I've needed glasses for the drivers license eye test for a long time. But I still drive during the day without them. I pretty much always wear them at night (driving) now. But no other times. All photos of me have no glasses. If a hijacker didn't need glasses for the hijack, I would think most photos of him would be without glasses. If most were with glasses, then it would be odd to do the hijack without glasses? Would I wear sunglasses during the hijack? No, because then I definitely wouldn't be able to see what's going on. I need all the light I can get. The lenses were pretty dark on Cooper's shades?

377: high five!

You mean the next day? The next day he didn't have the tie. And why would he be wearing sunglasses in the NW in November 1971? And 37 years later, why would showing a sketch with black sunglasses help? I would think highlighting the sunglasses as a separate item might help..i.e. saying they were the like the ones I showed. Do you think showing the sunglass sketch nowadays would help someone ID Cooper? I don't care what the motivation was in 1971. (edit) I think most amateur movies that do "Cooper" things, use the wrong sunglasses. they use "Risky Business" or "Blues Brothers" or "Men in Black" type. Which is wrong, right?

I think it's fair to say, that in my mind, the Duane image comes up stronger than the image of the 1971 composite, when I think of Cooper. That doesn't make sense. I think it's because it's easier to think of a photo then a sketch, because it seems more real. That's why I liked my 3d head, even if it was missing hair. The photo-realistic texture for the skin, makes it look like a photo (the age advanced one). I think it registers in my mind better. There's no reason to say it's less accurate than the sketch, since we're just interested in dimensions/shapes/rough colorations.