snowmman

georger said: hi georger that would be interesting. Where did you get that from? when asked by who?

You said that was the SOF magazine from 1994. The jumper with the nuke. Right? So he's looking at that magazine in 1994 and Duane dies in 1995. It's hard to believe that a real Cooper, who survived, would be reading Soldier of Fortune in 1994, and save one issue, that had to do with parachuting with a nuke. Why would that make sense?

Yeah, I guess I'm willing to believe that Vancouver Lake was too far from the flight path...today at least :) Also people get worked up arguing that there's no real good path for the money from Vancouver Lake to Tena Bar. But there are other lakes we've talked about once you cross the Columbia. Smith and Bybee Lake are pretty big. And then there's the Williamette River like georger pointed out a ways back. A lot of water. And the data on actual jump point very weak. I will point out two things. I was looking at the aerial photos of Tena Bar from 74 and 79 that Ckret provided. 1) I hadn't noticed that there's kind of a road N of Fazio's house, that goes (diagonal) from the main road, right to about where the money was found. I always figured if there was a "plant" story, the access would have been from the S, say from the parking area visible S. But maybe access from the N? since the money was found right where the "road" hits the beach? 2) The sand operation at the Fazio's, S of their house, doesn't seem to have been in operation in '74. It seems to have been in '79 (you can see stuff in the S area). We never really put a date on when their sand operation started. Maybe it started after the 74 dredging when they first got spoils? attached zoomed and cropped for reference. As noted before, the circle is probably from the FBI marking the money find location on each of the original pics.

Did read it Snow. Absolutely riveting. His screen name was Iceman. Any relation? 377 Now I know this will seem Off topic. But it's amazing to think how technology developments lead to social behaviors on a wide scale, where people just accept it as "it must be done"..Are we societies shackled by technologies, or societies that shackle technology? i.e. we build planes that can be hijacked, and it becomes a federal problem to prevent hijackings. The whole TSA thing is a massive security theatre. we build a credit card industry that is easily hacked, and we tax ourselves so the FBI/SS can investigate hackers (rather than the credit card industry fully covering all of it) With relatively low technology Qassam rockets, Hamas has triggered a massive invasion by Israel. And those rockets are incredibly small compared to what you see US civilians setting off at Black Rock, Nevada all the time. I guess it started the first time a cave man picked up a jaw bone and clubbed something with it. I joke about the nuclear WMD thing, but imagine, if nature had made atomic weapons easy to make it home? Scary thought, because we all know the rednecks would be making them and putting videos up on youtube.... Einstein said: "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

I had just had two recent thoughts on weather conditions. This is revisiting some stuff previously discussed. 1) Looking at ckret's posts, early on he mentioned "complete darkness'. That's surprising because most of Ckret's posts were correct data. That isn't. The historical data says the moon was at 41%. This is from the US Navy site, using 11/24/71 and Vancouver,WA. If you want to think Cooper is genius..then notice that the moon sets around midnight...i.e. if Cooper was too late, he'd lose the moon? (edit) I'm interpreting "moonset" but don't really know. The moon set varies significantly day to day? from: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_pap.pl Phase of the Moon on 24 November: waxing crescent with 41% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated. The following information is provided for Vancouver, Clark County, Washington (longitude W122.6, latitude N45.6): Wednesday 24 November 1971 Pacific Standard Time SUN Begin civil twilight 6:49 a.m. Sunrise 7:22 a.m. . Sunset 4:32 p.m. End civil twilight 5:05 p.m. MOON Moonset 9:52 p.m. on preceding day Moonrise 12:28 p.m. Moon transit 5:41 p.m. Moonset 11:06 p.m. Moonrise 12:50 p.m. on following day 2) The "second transcript" released by Ckret has some interesting info. It had a weather report communicated to the plane on takeoff from Seattle. I always had thought the weather was worse in Seattle, but it wasn't so bad..on page 12 of "Logs 06-20-2008R.pdf" (n467us.com) it says "wind is 180 degrees, one zero [Ed. I'm assuming this means 10 knots surface wind] and the altimeter is 2991" again this was at Seatac

How do you possibly stay on top of all this stuff???? Admit it Snow, you are the principal architect of the MATRIX. It wouldn't be your first major system design. There is no other logical explanation. 377 read the Butler article I just posted. He hacked into 4 criminal sites, stole all their databases for stolen credit cards and customers who buy them, deleted their databases and conglomerated it into his own new web site for selling stolen credit cards. And no one could stop him. Now THAT's amazing. He reposted all the posts he siphoned from the other sites to his own new site. The problem is always that what appears difficult to one, is easy to another. In terms of thinking about Cooper, obviously Cooper must have thought about what he was doing as "easy".?? Ckret lumps this in as "enough knowledge to be a danger to himself". But if all he's doing is accepting risk at some percentage different than others might, how do we think about that? It's like thinking about people who jump into fields bordered by power lines on a windy day, with newer canopies that have higher forward speeds, and wondering "How did they compute the risk introduced by all those variables? Was it all superior knowledge? or was part of it just a go-for-it attitude?"

Remember how I mentioned whether it made sense to think of Cooper as a 1971 technology exploit? This is a good article even for non tech people to get some insight into the depths of the whole current cyber theft world, and how sophisticated and also unsophisticated it can be: http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/17-01/ff_max_butler In terms of thinking about criminals and skill, it makes it obvious there's no simple way to think about whether someone is showing skill or being stupid... Clearly a mix of skill and stupidity in Butler. I liked this one comment someone left on the article...it makes one muse about weapons races. "This man is a WMD in need of a guidance system. Screw prison. Lock him in a room with a computer, a controller who can understand what he is doing, and a list of Chinese sites to hack." I saw another article where they were raising the issue of China beating the US to the moon in the latest race, and how it would look bad..so they're thinking about using US military rockets maybe, to simplify the US project. I think we all just replay history with more people and different tools/weapons.

The rebuild of the DZ.com search index last night got rid of the discrepancy I noted between search hits and final edited text on posts. I think the downtime and search index rebuild was related to the conspiracy, of course. Be interesting to see if the problem is still there for future posts, and whether the rebuild just fixed past posts/search.

The all-caps text below is directly from the fbi web page. Maybe they have 14-year-olds doing their web pages, like everyone else does? This is supposedly the biggest hiring blitz since 9/11. I think Ckret would probably give us all a good reference. i.e.. fill in "I know Ckret" under references. The rumor (that I'm starting) is that most of the new positions are related to the Cooper investigation. Or the coverup conspiracy, I'm not sure which. "FBI MEGA HIRING TO FILL OVER 2100 PROFESSIONAL STAFF POSITIONS! UPDATES WILL BE ADDED DAILY THROUGH JANUARY 5, 2009. QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL STAFF CANDIDATES WILL BE CONTACTED TO PARTICIPATE IN A CAREER INVITATIONAL. ADDITIONALLY, THE FBI MUST HIRE 850 SPECIAL AGENTS." http://www.fbijobs.gov/

I was just wondering about something. Someone with jump experience probably wouldn't spot on the Vancouver lights? would worry about landing in power lines and the Columbia river. Would wait until just outside of Portland..i.e. know to wait for a little after the lights? Can't see how a jumper would jump right when he saw the vancouver lights. We've been saying this as a theory for a while..but doesn't it make no sense (for a jumper?)

hmm, never thought about it that way but you have a really good point. Oh Snowmman, you mythbuster. 377 yeah, you have to think about analyzing the flight path below, say 100 ft, not just where your feet touch earth...and the critical object is not just your feet, but this "thing" that's bigger than an airplane? i.e. you plus lines plus canopy. Also: even if the power line itself is narrow (less than 1") if there are multiple lines, separated by 10 ft or 30 ft, then it's the same as having a 10 or 30 ft wall, because of the size of person plus lines plus canopy. Another way to think about it: You could probably jump near a road with cars going 60mph on the road and not have to worry about landing on the road and getting killed. (just keep your feet up if you end up crossing the road low). Way more likely to hit the power lines.

I think the snagging power line analysis is different than water landing...and a little more complicated. You have to take into consideratio the vertical height of the lines/parachute plus it's oscillation and the vertical area of power lines, in addition to the relative horizontal area they occupy as a DZ. here's the thought experiment. Most power lines (except the higher voltage ones) parallel roads. Now the probability that you'll snag a power line, is probably higher than the idea of your shoe touching a road when you land... There's some complicated thinking about the flight pattern.. Like if an airplane flew horizontally only at 30 feet off the ground, all the time, the probablity of hitting power lines would be 100%. If Canopies descended vertically only, the probability of power line hitting would be less. Same if there was no wind. So there's a lot more issues for analyzing power line probability? The supersitions about power lines are probably based in fact.

just two snaps from http://www.nortekusa.com/principles/ChannelFlow.html showing that channel flow can be complicated, even ignoring turbulent flow. Here's a textbook that has a lot of pages available in Google Books. Maybe georger can get Hubert on the panel? "Environmental Hydraulics of Open Channel Flows" By Hubert Chanson http://books.google.com/books?id=7CIl-T0A1qwC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81

We've discussed this before, but Cooper might also have landed on the wild western side of Hayden Island. And then the money raised during flood conditions. So it's not just a matter of analyzing water to land ratios for probability. Places with low human traffic, that get flooded, like Hayden Island, or the channel on the south of Hayden island, also have to get included. If Cooper spotted using Vancouver lights, things could have been very bad, probablity wise? (Hayden Island plus that channel probably doubles the bad odds?)

re: georger's theories about river flow. back in the day, I actually did some lab experiments with laminar flow of water across the diameter of a pipe. We used intersecting laser beams, and I think scattering from particles in the water to measure velocity across the pipe. Something like that... Doesn't really apply, but you can see on the web, people who actually do research and measurements about river flows talking about laminar flow and turbulent flow and the effect of meanders changing the point of highest flow from side to side. In any case, georger, according to your theory of river behavior, how does sand get deposited on shorelines, and where does it come from? Sand is very small particles...may or may not behave the same as say a boat left adrift in the middle of the Columbia. But what's your theory about the sand on the shores of the Columbia. How did it get there, and why in particular spots more than others?

no it isn't. quote the year you're thinking about. Pics are available. Shoreline changes, especially with water level. Also, your statements about the behavior of floating trash and shorelines and current flows, seems purely speculative. Why would high current in the center of the river have a controlling effect on behaviors at the edge of the river? You could quote studies on river shoreline trash, and get some better data?

I'm not sure if it's Quade, or Cooper. One of them, unless maybe Quade is Cooper? end-of-world-predictions = end-of-thread-predictions I have been to Tena's Bar and dug up the Aluminum Plates. Behold!

AH! I knew Uncle Sluggo wouldn't let me down. Well, the guys in the lab are just PhD students, and may be full of crap, but they say they can synchronize 63 of them, and while the efficiency will still be low, that it will be "good enough". As to the Be-7, well we have a crazy scheme. We're going to put tethered balloons at 50,000 ft to bombard oxygen tanks with cosmic rays. Enough balloons and time, and we think we'll get enough Be-7. The best part is we're getting NASA funding for the balloons. We told them it was for a "space elevator".

"It has a lot in common with ordinary cult behavior. " I worked for a guy in the mid-'80s, who later on liked to claim that he was the first to introduce the phrase "drink the Kool-Aid" into everyday conversation. Mostly because it still had the taint of bad taste because it was still close to 1978. Whereas people and web articles say it all the time nowadays. When I look at wikipedia today, there is an entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid that claims: "The earliest known use of the term in its figurative, non-literal context (that is, outside descriptions of people actually drinking real Kool-Aid), is from a 1987 quote about former Washington, D.C., mayor Marion Barry in the Washington Post." However, I started working for him in 1986, and I distinctly remember hearing it in the first year. I only mention this because georger mentioned cults, and I also wanted to deny any obsessive behavior on my part. I don't know what you might be referring to. To complete the thought, in the mid-80's there was an article in the Sunday insert of the Boston Globe, where a columnist also dreamed of introducing a catch phrase into everyday conversation. He tried to introduce "get a cushion!" (long story). Since then, I've tried to help him, yelling "Get a cushion!" whenever appropriate. For instance, this post.

Let's make January "Be Nice To Jo" month. If you look at her recent posts, she's dialed back a notch, which might not seem like much, but I'm sure is a big deal for her. She'll hate me for saying this, but I think if we saw her in person, we'd realize she's not kidding when she says she has health issues, that are maybe kicking in a little worse than normal. Remember: strong words here, don't necessarily translate to strong body. And in any case, it's good for us. We don't need to hold onto what someone might have said a year ago...We can keep our memories shorter..at least for January! Hey everyone's nice to nice people...we can take on the harder job! JO-KE! Happy New Year, Jo!

The video is great. I love youtube because it's so democratic. It shows the true diversity of what the next generation is doing out there. And it's scary. Least Common Denominator rules. Like there's whole genres of whacked videos. There's the guys shooting full auto AK-47's. There's the guys showing off their two deer-one-shot vids. There's the kids showing the highest leap off cliffs into water (100ft) There's the guys with homemade parachutes. Then there's the guys shooting propane tanks. Or filming women in bikinis shooting .50 cal weapons. Welcome to America! America IS Sarah Palin, whether people like it or not. Everyone has the horn now...it's scary... Hell poor Sluggo with his little Glock, is like....so old school. minimum you gotta have like a 13 foot shotgun to play in today's redneck world... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTQQfKxkZpk (don't forget to say "holy cow" to prove you're redneck!) Hey sluggo: I went up to Alaska to get the neutron tube from the oil well guys like you said. What's the next piece I need? Are you sure it's all going to fit in a black suitcase? I don't want no FBI guy saying I knew just enough to hurt myself, afterwards.

I believe this video is true. It shows what I was saying about how front/back fading can be selective. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks73zutaGQ0 I've read news articles where there was a bad batch of inks for US bills... where the batch was front/back selective. And you got the fading. here's a 1990 news article "WASHINGTON - U.S dollars are fading away. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing blames the ink. George Washington's face is looking especially pale on some $1 bills, and small sections of black ink are flaking off other denominations. The bureau says it was sent a batch of ''inferior quality'' ink last year. The bureau realized the problem when some bills failed durability tests, which entail folding and washing the bills"

No I didn't, Jo. Describe it and we can talk about it.

I just raised the question. geoger. If it's a bad question, then sure, let's drop it. Obviously I don't know jack about how US currency behaves under different environmental conditions. I'm exploring, trying to see what are the interesting variables. Obviously there are experts that know a lot more than me. Obviously there's been no analysis of the money to date otherwise we'd be told about it because it would close avenues of investigation. You already have all the photos, as I've posted them. Pick one and explain your theories for what caused the various effects. -edge decomposition -insect? holes -ink fading on some bills, not on others. -brown and black bills If you've not seen the black bills you're not looking at the photos. Same thing if you've not seen the faded ink. On the other hand, I've not heard any good description about any tests Tom has planned, so it makes sense to me to explore possibilities. Tom said water/sand as the key contributors he was going to isolate. microbes, insects, UV and Infrared are probably also measurable effects, but not along Tom's experience? If there's a panel, great. let them describe what they think are effects that are measurable that they're going to measure. If the panel doesn't show up here, I don't really care about them.

Remember that info I found for 377, about USD use abroad...came from a doc that references both use and counterfeiting of USD abroad (joint effort by Fed, Treasury and Secret Service). among other things: - the report estimates that of U.S. notes in circulation abroad and at home, only about one note in 10,000 is counterfeit. - The average incidence of counterfeit U.S. currency passing is generally low both inside and outside the United States, notwithstanding occasional large seizures of uncirculated counterfeits. - A lack of legal authority for banks and cash handlers to confiscate suspected or actual counterfeit U.S. currency increases concern about counterfeiting and hampers enforcement. - The Secret Service U.S. Dollars Counterfeit Note Search website established in 1999, www.usdollars.usss.gov, has been extremely effective in aiding banks and cash handlers, their customers, and law enforcement in tracking and identifying counterfeit notes. http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/rptcongress/counterfeit/counterfeit2006.pdf yeah. I suppose you've read about the "supernotes"? (PN-14342) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdollar Korea, Russia, China, CIA? :) If it's possible to pass $100 million in currency, maybe heavily outside US, then it's worth investing $10 million in the equipment to print it? I guess that's the real question. How easy is it to pass large quantities. If it's easy, then the use of expensive or hard to obtain technology becomes feasible. Paper money is a bad idea. I guess it's required because economies aren't uniformly advanced in the world, to not require individual handling of money. (edit) more detailed: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/magazine/23counterfeit.html?pagewanted=1&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/R/Richardson,%20Bill