snowmman

There are no asides in the DBC thread. Everything is relevant. It was Coddington remarking on Clower's analysis of Keynes. reprinted in many places. first in 1976 at: Coddington, Alan. "Keynesian Economics: The Search for First Principles." Journal of Economic Literature 14, pp. 1258-1273 (Dec. 1976) "The picture here seems to be one of Keynes with a mind full of ideas some of which he got onto the pages of the General Theory, the task being to work out what the remainder must have been. This is a problem of reading not so much between the lines as off the edge of the page" from http://books.google.com/books?id=4hNyTuPWlaAC&dq=%22Keynesian+Economics:+The+Search+for+First+Principles.&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA106,M1

Smokejumpers with bull riding experience were heavily recruited during the cold war as kickers for nuclear weapons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcW_Ygs6hm0 (edit) Note that Major Kong is wearing a rig, right? the extended version shows the back rig starting at 4:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgHSDa2Jwqc

This paper was published in 2007 and is available in full online. 7 year data on search and rescues in OR. Not exactly good for the Cooper survivial probability, but gives some info on search times, death rates, temperatures, months, etc. Can be used for some insight on the relative likelihood of someone being lost for a while, ending up being dead. Note that search time is the strongest link to probable death. I've attached a snap of one table. My take is that overnight for Cooper, statistically in those conditions is "probably would have been found alive". Now multiple days out, without skills or gear, may be a different story. Survival probability for searches, drops dramatically after two days. Also, water searches increase likelihood of nonsurvival (river/lake/ocean etc) http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1080-6032&volume=018&issue=02&page=0095

people post links to threads, without reading the thread I think. The thread on the base jumper who died: he appears to have done some things that lost and hypothermic people do: wander and take off their clothes when the body mistakenly makes them feel warm. I don't want to dissect this case, but it's not useful for comparing to a Cooper survival probability. Note that just sitting would have been a better survival plan. But by being in the canyon, he was probably worried about never getting out or found, which probably was a mistake. There was no reason for Cooper to be wandering aimlessly. "He was found without his rig, coat, shirt and one shoe, all of which he had apparently removed and discarded at different points. It is likely that he wandered in the canyon for several hours before succumbing to the elements." (edit) I just scanned the thread again and found this on conditions: "Keep in mind we had 4 inches of fresh snow that night, on top of the snow we already had." So there was snow, and it snowed that night. I agree that that makes things difficult. I said that in my post above. (edit) high winds noted also. Unclear if windbreaks. "although that night we got several inches of snow and had high winds. "

I'm not sure why you think Cooper was wearing slip on loafers. That's not a consistent description from Tina and Flo. Moon doesn't affect survival probability, assuming you're staying outside. Water immersion models for predicting survival in cold water exist. Even those have wide variance..usually underestimate. Important to realize if planning S&R operations. But Cooper wouldn't stand in the rain if he was cold. No one stands in the rain if there's an option. At the predicted DZs, there were simple options. Stand where the rain isn't coming down. Under trees, for instance. Mild hypothermia is not death. You can shiver all night and recover the next day. You can have totally numb hands and not die or even have identifiable frostbite. No survival skills are necessary. If Cooper had jumped into snow, or temperatures more like 20 degree F, or 50 mph surface wind with no wind breaks, it would be a different story. Or if he was drunk, or elderly. Or if clothing was soaking wet when he hit the ground. None of those things were true. Survival pretty easy. People in the mid-40's don't just roll over and say "I'm dead" when things are a little uncomfortable. Old people do, or drunk people. Not someone who wants to live. It would be hard to murder someone by locking him outside in the rain that night. That's how you have to think about it. If I locked you outside because I wanted to murder you that night, would I have succeeded? Or would you kill me the next morning? You can look at the news right now to see people freezing to death in Poland cause of the cold snap in Europe. Gives you a sense of what is needed to kill. And that's including old folks.

What do you think he had to do to survive the night? (I guess identify your predicted DZ) I'm guessing that if you stuck 100 random people at the predicted DZ, with no gear or skills, that none would die, no matter what they did. Unless they were sick already, or injured severely on the landing.

that's wrong, happythoughts. There's nothing about Gossett that makes him a good suspect.

I'm not going to pitch a point of view, but anyone who likes the Gossett story is going to have to reconcile the stuff that Clyde Lewis is pitching about Gossett's history and who he was. Clyde, Cook and Gossett's ex-wife appeared together to talk up Gossett. I think at a club, like some kind of travelling carnie show? who knows. You can listen to mp3 (the last one) on this page. Minimally it's interesting hearing Cook talk about Gossett, and Clyde talk about the paranormal stuff Gossett was interested in. (Clyde starts in with this history at about 5:53 in the last mp3) God, it's sad listening to the ex-wife. If she ever shows up at this forum and starts acting like Jo.... http://www.ideocast.com/archive.asp?aid=12144 Clyde Lewis is very out there. Only related to Gossett cause he used to work at the same radio station. from Clyde "William (Wolfgang) Gossett worked at KCGL FM in the 1980’s, hosting a radio show that dealt with occult subjects and yarns of conspiracy theories, while Lewis was an engineer at KBBX, a gospel station owned by the same company. Gossett impressed the young Lewis with tales of true crime and paranormal activity, and encouraged him to join his various ghost hunts. While Gossett never confessed to Lewis that he was D.B. Cooper, many associates of Gossett told Lewis that the man might have a dark past. After Gossett left Utah in the 1990’s, Lewis created Ground Zero in 1995, carrying on the legacy of Gossett’s show and using some of the skills his mentor had taught him." (edit) Ground Zero Lounge "Recorded every Monday evening in front of a live audience at Dante's Inferno in Portland Oregon, the Ground Zero Lounge features Clyde Lewis in this audience participation discussion of current events as they relate to the paranormal. "

Yes I obviously forgot the seriousness of Honeywell's involvement in figuring out who DB Cooper is/was. I hang my head in shame.

No it's just funny more than anything. You went on about biometrics and simple measurements. Someone said they had a tool, which should basically just suck in anything. Yet it sounds like the pics are rejected based on a human scan. It's just funny. I think the bigger issue is that the software the guy has isn't as good as he says it is. If the software was good, there'd just be numbers or something, saying what you're saying. No numbers = the software is no good or requires manual intervention which is the same as no good. Remember how I said TSA is security theatre? So is a lot of this facial recognition stuff people are trying to sell to airports etc. No one wants to say how bad it is because hey, the taxpayers are footing the bill, so why blow a good thing? (edit) Now that I think about it, I grabbed the photos from pics of high school faculty in yearbooks from '65-'70. I didn't register it at the time, but yeah of course there are some that are just different by one year. I just noticed that. I was focused on just rejecting obviously way-off faces, and didn't think about the duplicate issue. BUT: it gives you the perfect opportunity to say which are different by just one year. Good software would have no problem with this.

I was surprised that the guy on the ramp was an old guy. It was funny how stiff he was. I looked closely at all the kickers on the plane, and I don't think the old guy was on the plane during any of the drops. I'm thinking he may have just been some part of the ground support. purpose: I think the camera crew came around, and they asked for a demo and everyone thought was stupid, and so they sent Old Joe down the slide, and Old Joe didn't know why so he tried to act serious with his hands at his side etc. Reply> See attached. My friend at Honeywell Corp rejected your photos. Too many and too many duplicates of the same person. Sorry. Georger No need to apologize. I thought I was doing you a favor, not the other way around! Which do you think are the same person? They are all different people. You mean we have....criteria?

jo said: I was surprised that the guy on the ramp was an old guy. It was funny how stiff he was. I looked closely at all the kickers on the plane, and I don't think the old guy was on the plane during any of the drops. I'm thinking he may have just been some part of the ground support. purpose: I think the camera crew came around, and they asked for a demo and everyone thought was stupid, and so they sent Old Joe down the slide, and Old Joe didn't know why so he tried to act serious with his hands at his side etc.

Do you think "combed back" meant it couldn't have been a "comb over" to cover a balding head? 377 Well it's all confusing. None of the composites show what I would consider a "combed back" look. And Tina was sitting right next to him. Like everything in the Cooper mystery, drilling into individual things just adds more mystery. What's weird for me, is that people consider the Cooper story a mystery given the way it's been portrayed to date. If all of the available info is dumped out, it becomes even more mysterious in my mind, not less.

The most plausible Cooper story would be one where someone says he lost all the money on the jump and ditched the rig at the time. I can't understand wannabe's who think they have to concoct a "what happened to the money story" that involves safe deposit boxes. The facts don't require it and actually steer against it. All you really need is a good landing story where the canopy doesn't get caught in something, so it's easily retrieved and disposed of. And you don't need to worry about the shoes. Just say you were wearing ankle shoes. One of the descriptions agrees with you on that..so you didn't lose your shoes. (Tina's description) Hey I just noticed Tina said the hair was "combed back" Mucklow "W/M, mid 40's, 5-10" 6', 180 to 190, med to dark complexion, medium build, dark straight hair with narrow sideburns to mid ear parted and combed back, dark plastic wrap-around sunglasses, dark top coat, dark brown suit possibly with a thin black stripe, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not the tie type, he had a low voice with no accent, she did not see scars, marks or tattoos, the man did not have on any jewelry she could see." (edit) And my guess is the paper bag was left on the plane. That could be a sticking point if anything was in it and you don't know.

The picture is not a Boeing 707 but rather a Douglas DC 8. Too bad Georger's relative wasn't flying during the KAL 007 incursion. His cool head might have averted the tragedy. 377 This is interesting 377. See we always need experts. The www.airforce.ru page I think mentioned DC-8, but all the English pages talked 707. you can see on this page where it says 707 http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/misc.htm the russian page clearly says DC-8 as you say, http://www.airforce.ru/awm/hotsky/hotsky2.htm Attached is another pic of the DC-8. GOOD JOB 377! you beat the English Web! It's a DC-8-63F ?? I was going to paste in the Russian, but apparently the characters aren't preserved right when I hit "post"

Interesting the paper can absorb organics that well. I wonder how long they last. http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/pf/20070921_mutilated_currency_a2.asp In fact, currency redemption can be quite an odiferous affair. "We've had some cases that are very smelly," Robinson admits. "Once you smell money that has been removed from a dead body, you will never forget it in all your life."

I think we're all familar with small numbers of wet bills in a wet wallet, say. But here's an example of a dried out case (person was referred to Bureau of Engraving and Printing which takes in mutilated money) http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v09n38.html "WHAT TO DO WITH A HARDENED BRICK OF FORMERLY-WET PAPER MONEY Web site visitor Carole MacCarter writes: "I have a hardened "brick" of formerly-wet paper currency, now dry but fragile and stuck together (think paper mache). It may be as much as $10,000, so I am very interested in restoring the bills well enough so they can be replaced at a bank. I have had no luck with getting advice from the bank on how to separate the bills. Is there some kind of solution I can use to re-wet them so they might come apart? Or should I try to slice the dry brick apart? or? I don't want to cause more damage to the bills through not knowing how to do this. Thanks for any advice you can give me." ... Basically, one should not attempt to separate the glob of currency - it is best to leave that to the experts at the BEP. They have "mutilated currency specialists" whose full-time job is to sort out messes like this." (a couple extra pics of buried money at this BEP site) http://www.bep.treas.gov/section.cfm/8/39 I always thought these guys at BEP would have the most knowledge: Roscoe Ferguson Lorraine Robinson (just retired as director after more than 30 years at the Mutilated Currency Division) Get Lorraine or Roscoe on the team! http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/12/26/8364652/index.htm "After we determine that it's genuine currency, our first step is to see how much they have. Most of the time, they have much more than they think. When currency comes in here fused together, it may look like two or three notes to you, but we'll find 50 or 100 notes. After Hurricane Katrina, we have a lot of water-damaged currency. Nobody else will touch it but us." http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/pf/20070921_mutilated_currency_a2.asp "We've heard some doozies," Robinson says. "I remember one where a woman sent the dog's picture and he was so sad; he had chewed up about $300 of her money and it came out the other end. She had washed it, of course; we don't ask them to send stool samples. It didn't have much left, but we were able to identify three different bills after they came out and we knew he had ingested the rest, so we gave her credit for it." Years ago, a farmer took quite literally the division's instructions to send the damaged bills in the original container. "The farmer was in the field and his wallet came out and the cow ate the wallet. Once he realized that, he slaughtered the cow and sent one of the two stomachs in. Of course, it was very ripe when it got here," Robinson says.

Don't pout Miss Kitty - yer still the owner of this-here saloon. Just remember half the people can't read. The rest don't care. And the Snow can't last forever. George Yevtoshenko On June 30, 1968 Major I.F. Yevtoshenko (+ others) forced the landing of a Boeing 707 owned by Seaboard World Airways on Iturul Island, Kurile Islands. It was carrying US troops and entertainers to Vietnam. Picture attached. Yevtoshenko was flying a MiG-21 (there was more than one?)

The most likely transport mechanisms: 1) Sea Lions 2) Eagles 3) Fazio bulldozer 4) Kids looking for porn magazines in the bushes 5) Floating Cooper body, depositing money that gets buried. 6) Kids poking sticks in the floating Cooper body they found while looking for porn magazines 7) Kids putting M-80s in the floating Cooper body they found while looking for porn magazines.

This band has a new D.B. Cooper song too..! I want a Duane Weber one... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-BANCdefFk&NR=1 Band's in Ireland. Cooper is on the cover of Hoo G Pah's new album... "Minus One Equals One"

Probably because the rescue costs are too high? What would you do with an F14? You cant even afford the gas. I know, you have an answer... maybe try for a submarine and go looking for Coopper with Tosaw! G. F-14? why waste money on US stuff. MIG-21 and MIG-29's are where it's at. See then you get the USAF to pay you to do dogfights against you. http://www.redair.net/home.html Hey it's 2008..it's all about private armies now! Get your own. Last one armed is a rotten egg.

(I know this is revisiting this issue, but a little bit new angle based on historical Ckret posts) I've not been able to find the right data for the 727 in 1971, but some stuff seems to suggest that 15 degrees was the normal takeoff flap setting, and that the FAA allowed 5 and 10 also, I guess under some conditions? Be nice if we knew for sure. So while they eventually went to 30 degree flaps, they couldn't have taken off with flaps more than 15 degrees? I'm wondering about this thing Ckret suggested, i.e. that the pilots may have created the 15 degree spec, and that Cooper only said "down" It doesn't seem to jibe with what the pilots apparently told newspapers later, but who knows what happened in communications.

so I downloaded the 300+MB of higher resolution FMFM and snapped two frames for Jo, and chopped just the 727 jumper exits and slow mo'ed by 10x and youtube'ed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYW08S3dAUs It's interesting looking at them. The static line deployment idea seems pretty bad. The canopies drag against the bottom of the rear engine area and seem ripe for snagging. Also, the canopy actually "hits" the rear exhaust plume..you can see it deflects off that air stream. All-in-all, static line deployment doesn't seem like a good idea there? I looked for face snaps for Jo. Two attached. I'm mindful of the age old wisdom delivered by every old guy in a bar to the next generation: "Never get involved with a crazy woman, it's never worth it"....see, the thing is, women never really find out how all encompassing men can define crazy: ....i.e. "she said she wants what??? is she nuts?" But it's Be Nice to Jo Month! I couldn't find any other good faces Jo. I noticed the guy with the white short sleeves that was helping one of the static line jumpers, who had a static line rig on himself, (no helmet though)..his rig had a tag on the top left strap..like a big laundry tag. Didn't get his face though.

hey steve1, any random comment and we gotta drill into it till nothing's left :) Steve1: You reminded me I had been looking for C-141 exits..only found this one short 10 second clip but put it up on youtube. 377 had mentioned the blast deflectors before. They're in the vid.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSOdVpMLLhE&feature=channel_page

Well Jo, some of us do research. Georger It's not research if you don't post a source. but whatever. This is just a forum.