snowmman

here's a funny trivia: when they evac'ed Vietnam in '75, they supposedly blew up millions of dollars at the DAO compound? (edit) Actually just noticed it doesn't say US dollars. But the vietnamese currency wasn't called dollars. Who knows what they blew up. http://www.scarface-usmc.org/1975_the_evacuation.htm After considerable political prevarication, Operation 'Frequent Wind' got underway on the afternoon of 29 April with the insertion of a Marine security force to guard the principal extraction site at the Defense Attaché’s Office (DAO) compound, adjacent to Tan Son Nhut airfield. The evacuation proceeded smoothly, although not without incident, as frantic refugees clambered aboard the helicopters. By 2100 hours the evacuation was complete at the DAO compound, and after the complex (including millions of dollars in currency) had been destroyed with explosives, the last two CH-53S lifted off at 0012 on 30"

Yeah. And while I doubt Cooper had any direct info on this CIA test, note that the test would mean you'd have knowledge of the door, but not necessarily knowledge of stair deployment. I think that's just coincidence though. Remember: Ckret did drop a line at some point where he said the FBI interviewed the people that did the "food drop" test. What we don't know is if it was these CIA folks, or different Boeing folks doing their own testing.

There are some good science papers that unfortunately need to be paid for. Maybe some of the researchers who published using the Shirley soil burial cotton test strips might have some still on hand, or recommend similar? The Shirley Institute is now called the British Textile Technology Group. (merger of Wira and Shirley Institute). Site is http://www.bttg.co.uk/about_BTTG.cfm Like this guy in Norway http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VG6-3VVT3WM-43&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ee8b7eae180e9cf1f79317e451ff787d Biodegradation and characterization of water-degraded archaeological textiles created for conservation research E. E. Peacock Vitenskapsmuseet, The Norwegian University of Science and Technology, N-7004, Trondheim, Norway Received 6 December 1994; accepted 17 April 1996. ; Available online 22 February 1999. Abstract Modern undyed natural fiber textile fabrics were experimentally biodegraded for use in archaeological textile conservation research. Specimens were exposed to soil burial in sandy loam, soil burial in peat, and prolonged soaking in unchanged distilled water for periods of 0.5–32 weeks. The degraded fabrics were evaluated by microscopic examination, chemical analysis, and physical methods of testing. Results of macro- and micromorphological analysis are reported. Fabric cross-sections were analyzed using light microscopy, and fabric, yarn and fiber surfaces were examined by scanning electron microscopy. Soil burial was more aggressive than prolonged soaking, and sandy loam more aggressive than peat except for the wool. Cellulose-based fabrics were less resistant to biodegradation than protein-based fabrics, linen was less resistant than cotton, and wool was less resistant than silk. Based upon visual assessment, the experimentally-degraded fabrics are similar to both water-degraded archaeological textiles and burial-induced degraded modern textiles reported by other studies. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VG6-3VVT3WM-42&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F31%2F1996&_alid=844516620&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=mlkt&_cdi=6030&_sort=v&_st=17&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=169&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1eb03449f96b0f08160682be33cee25b Characterization and simulation of water-degraded archaeological textiles: a review E. E. Peacock Vitenskapsmuseet, The Norwegian University of Science and Technology, N-7004, Trondheim, Norway Abstract Textiles recovered from marine, terrestrially wet, and frozen archaeological contexts are degraded primarily by microorganisms which have attacked and consumed material leaving the physical structure weakened. The type and extent of this damage vary for different fiber types especially between those of vegetable and animal origin. These variations place differing requirements upon the post-excavation conservation of this material. Appropriate conservation is dependent upon an assessment of the condition of the textile. There has been little study of how terrestrial wet and frozen burial contexts have altered the basic morphology and chemistry of natural fiber textiles. Neither has there been much study of how, through actualistic and laboratory experiments, these contexts modify the characteristics of never-buried textiles to provide comparative data with which to interpret the archaeological material. Relevant studies are scattered among several disciplines. A limited review is presented of two topics relevant to the assessment of water-degraded archaeological textiles: (1) studies of the characterization of natural fiber textiles degraded by microorganisms; and (2) methods and studies to simulate these degradation processes.

What did you think about my post on MPCs, orange1? Did you understand what it was all about? if not, go back and read it again. I provided links to google books and wikipedia. I thought my last post, highlighting that MPCs were considered non-negotiable currency was interesting. Also, the ability to make money on the black market trade of MPCs and real green US dollars. And how you could money order that back home! More interesting than stupid Vegas casino theories! US green money was worth more in SE Asia in the late '60s, then in the US. Doesn't mean anything, but it points out how shallow our thinking has been.

? No one discusses anything I post. I usually post a one off here, there's no discussion, and that's it and we go back to talking about Duane's obsession with bald men in band uniforms. The info about the testing likely being from Takhli, came from the Leeker post 377 made. 377 gave me additional info that gave the source of Leeker's surmise. The rest was my interpretation of the video. I tried to be accurate. If not, tell me, and I'll correct. Why do you think I was looking at Takli Air Base, say for the skin color? The Leeker info, fwded by 377, that id'ed Takhli. Note Leeker's source were the Leary interviews. I posted a link to the Leary papers online also. So while there was no discussion, there were posts. "...but Air America's/SAT's 727s were used for tests only, as it seems. This is a sentence quoted from my file about Missions to Tibet: "Later, the 727s were even tested at Takhli for air drops with conveyer belt and rollers, because the aircraft could be pressurized until the drop, but although the system worked well, it was never used in operation.[1]" In the documentary Flying Men, Flying machines you can see drops made from one of the 727s. Kind regards Dr. Joe Leeker" [1] Thomas C. Sailer, interview made with Willliam M. Leary at San Francisco on 8 September 1985; professor Leary's notes, preserved at UTD/Leary/ I B14F6.

thanks, Tom. But haven't you been listening to Jo? You think it was just "coincidence" they stopped making it a year ago? I'll look around.

from an link in today's www.nbcnews.com updated 8:45 a.m. PT, Tues., Dec. 23, 2008 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28366880/ "Steganography hides the fact that a message was even sent, usually by hiding it in plain sight. In the movie "A Beautiful Mind," the main character, played by Russell Crowe, becomes convinced that the Communists are hiding messages inside news stories and loses his mind trying to decipher them. Crowe's character was paranoid, but his fears were not entirely unfeasible." Now you might ask, what was the main character's real-life name in "A Beautiful Mind" ? Well, John Forbes Nash of course. And of all the media you've been reading in the last two weeks, who has been talking about John Nash? (edit) side note: Nash was born 6/13/28..43 at the time of the hijack.

Jo, I think when Duane said to "shoot" the guy, he meant with a weapon, not a camera. Were you involved in other hits?

You can download the video, and then play it. right click and save. wmv file http://www.dropzone.com/videos/Miscellaneous/Air_America_727_air_drop_test_70/_71_1130.html Orange1: that info you quoted is just stuff I typed at the youtube thing for the video. There are sites that spider info from youtube, and then create sites to direct people to the youtube video. So you're not quoting new info..you're quoting people quoting what I put up on youtube...the web is infinite plagiarism like that...everyone's trying to steer traffic to make money...kind of like Jo!

from navy site http://www.history.navy.mil/planes/v-22.html

No, the Night Clerk is the "operator" in the movie "The Matrix". The Night Clerk is responsible for getting everyone in and out of the matrix. The ship the Night Clerk is on is called "The Nebachudnezzer" Remember that Tyre, which the Phoenicians called Al-Sur, is a symbol of resistance to conquest and oppression. Nebachudnezzer besieged the city for thirteen years and Alexander the Great, unable to defeat it after seven months of constant battle, finally built a great dike over which his armies could pass in order to enter the city. But that's not the point. The point is that the Matrix, itself, is becoming self-aware, a new order of emergent intelligence far superior to that of its creators. So that should all make sense now, right?

just found another article with some nice pics of the 500p. I figured 377 will like seeing the FLIR stuff. pics from http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/the_quiet_one.html# I had also talked about how SU-50's were being introduced into Vietnam...there was a comment to this article: "Other gadgetry included SU-50 night-vision goggles (their first use in Laos), which worked only when the moon was a quarter to a half full. ..." Interesting to see how much technology was being dumped into Southeast Asia in the '60s. The caption for the 3rd photo is "At a secret base in Laos, Air America's Thomas "Shep" Johnson trained local commandos to set a wiretap." Look at the Laos (Thais? Vietnamese?)..they obviously had balls! young guys.

Would you jump with a German Shepherd hanging around your crotch? (attached) from "South-East Asian Special Forces" http://books.google.com/books?id=3Ydn55I3PH0C&pg=PA50 I had been reading elsewhere about CIA trained black op drops of vietnamese jumpers into Laos. Evidently they wore face screens/canvas suits to protect against trees. Night jumps. Small numbers. Check out the dog pic though. I don't see a muzzle? "There I was, at 2500 ft with a german shepherd biting me hard and .."

Funny how Jo tries to distinguish between Good Lies and Bad Lies. The Good ones are the ones she tells to "test" people or ferret out information. The Bad ones are the ones everyone else is evidently telling. I don't really care about Jo's thing though, and really can't understand why you guys are all focused on it. Like no one was interested at all in my nice chart of PCA/USPA membership? I thought that was a great find. I'm more interested in this latest twist. Ckret gets the news media revved up about a "civilian investigators" angle. I say to myself "who are these civilians and how do they operate?". Tom has provided some detail. There are a number of people we've not heard from that Tom evidently contacts. Ckret disappears from this thread. Is he off the case? Did the "civilian investigators" get fired? Will a new case officer pick up the team? Is it just a holiday break? I have this vision of a team being abandoned in China, with no C-47 Skyhook being sent to extract them, left to their own wits. As the team opens their survival kits, they find a revolver, but no ammunition!

Orange1 asked again okay, I'll give the long version. Don't you remember the problem with the redacting of the fax number on the fax to Sluggo. The CID men are trying to track down who didn't censor the mail correctly. Major Major was signing "Washington Irving". We all know how important that name is to our literature analysis. Of course, Major Major got the idea to sign "Washington Irving" from Yossarian. "Promoted prematurely to squadron commander, Major Major Major has no idea what he is expected to do. Bored and depressed, he begins signing "Washington Irving" on official documents after two strange C.I.D. men question him regarding the forging incidents at the hospital. Major Major Major becomes reclusive and instructs his assistant, Sergeant Towser, to admit visitors only when Major Major is out of his office. Major Major no longer takes meals in the mess hall and he jumps out the window of his tent to avoid his office workers and visitors. "With a little ingenuity and vision, he had made it all but impossible for anyone in the squadron to talk to him, which was just fine with everyone, he noticed, since no one wanted to talk to him anyway." Chapter 9, pg. 111 Only Yossarian manages to tackle and speak to the antisocial major. Major Major thinks Yossarian is a freak because he carries on about a dead man in his tent and because he went naked to receive an award for heroism from General Dreedle. Yossarian asks Major Major to take him off combat duty. Major Major lamely replies that there is nothing he can do." Eventually Major Major disappears from the book, although it is uncertain if this is because he hides or if he was "disappeared" like Dunbar. He may have just not had any part whatsoever in events, due to his plan to completely avoid administrative duties

Jo You investigated a possible Coffelt connection in the conspiracy. Doesn't it make sense that there's a Gossett+Duane link that needs to be investigated? I think you need to talk to Gossett's ex-wife. The truth is out there. Gossett existed independent of Cook. Cook came afterwards.

I put it up on video so it's more accessible. Funny seeing the wife. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai7DR3kZiU0 she was married to him 20 odd years?

Quote Sure, maybe he knew Cooper. Or maybe he just got interested in the case. Maybe he got it into his head that Cooper died and the money was out there. Maybe when he said "That's where Cooper walked out the woods" he was supposing so, just as you and others here have said "Cooper did X" as though you know it as fact, when you don't. good point Orange1. That's exactly the way Gossett's ex-wife described how Gosset talked about it, in the 3rd person. I'm going to upload that news video to youtube so it's more accessible. I think it helps show how bogus the Gossett thing is also.

This was 1983. So he must have been just 17 at his first attempt in 1980? Yup, and that one was at SeaTac This one was Portland. January 21, 1983 FBI KILLS SKYJACKER ON PLANE A 20-year-old man, on probation for a bungled 1980 skyjacking, commandeered a Northwest Airlines jet and demanded to be flown to Afghanistan but was shot to death by (one of two) FBI agent(s) who had sneaked aboard. After trying to throw a shoe box he claimed held a bomb, Glenn K. Tripp, died yesterday in the aisle of Northwest Airlines Flight 608 after being shot at close range. "As he was going down, he said, 'I give, I give.' The last time he said it, he was fading" said Roy Gronquist, a passenger from Beavorton, Oregon. In the 1980 attempt he demanded and received $10000 in cash along with two parachutes. He scaled down the demand to a rental car and three cheeseburgers and was arrested when he left the plane. Shortly after Thursday's takeoff, Tripp stood and said, 'We're going to Afghanistan,' said Chuck Goodman, 40, a passenger from Boca Raton, Fla, "He said it in a low voice and no one took him seriously." "He was very upset with Americans,"said passenger Larry Larson, 43, a log scaler from Hood River, Ore. "Evidently, for some reason, he had a lot of hatred for Americans. He said we are not helping his people in Afghanistan enough" http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ATkLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QVIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6543,2025105&dq=parachute+db+cooper

and I can testify that Duane wasn't. Duane could testify that I wasn't, but Duane isn't here. So I was there. (edit) "owner of the Cooper legacy" Doesn't that sound more like the voiceover for a car commerical..you know the one where the old guy with grey hair buys a car for the 22 year-old trophy wife and it's in the driveway with a bow...snow etc..

Okay, I've been curious about the PCA/USPA membership numbers from '62-'71 and I was seeing some different numbers... but I finally found this interesting little 1979 paper purporting to analyze "risk" activities... it had a chart with the numbers I wanted (along with hang gliding and ballooning) I think the numbers look like (roughly) '61 -3300 '62 -7000 '63 -9000 '64 -7100 '65 -10000 '66 -11100 '67 -11500 '68 -12000 '69 -13000 '70 -11000 So if Cooper did some jumps in '62-'64, and he had a PCA license, we're only talking about 9000 folks? Cutting that down to NW area and males and certain age at that point ((36-38) would seem to prune the list a lot. Can't be more than a couple hundred that might be interesting Coopers? Just guessing, I would think the median age for jumpers would be lower than Cooper's age at that time, potentially lowering the number of interesting suspects, but maybe in the early years ('62-'64) skydiving skewed a little older? does anyone know? I can't imagine the FBI went thru all those folks though. Would the USPA (was PCA) have given them a list with data? Would the data have been lost? Nowadays I could imagine a subpoena...heck with Patriot Act, they'd just hack into the USPA computers...We Don't Knock! chart attached from 1979 paper http://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/gtr/gtr_ne57/gtr_ne57_1_199.pdf page 4 of 6

One of the McCoy (possibly) myths was that he was involved in the Cooper search. It's even in wikipedia saying that. I tried to track this down and found a newspaper article that I suspect may have the details that created the myth. I don't think McCoy was really involved in the Cooper search. It sounds accurate, and might suggest how the myth got started. This was from the Lawton Constitution 4/11/72 "...accused of masterminding Friday's hijack, reported Saturday morning at the Salt Lake City International Airport for extra National Guard helicopter training. Maj. Gen. Maurice L. Watts, the Utah adjuntant general, said McCoy, a warrant officer in the National Guard, flew a guard helicopter with a photographer to Camp Williams on a Saturday morning. The camp is a short distance from the Provo area where FBI agents had been searching for the hijacker. [ed. McCoy] Watts said the photographer told him the two flew to the camp and returned, passing near the area of the search. Watts also said McCoy, upon returning from the helicopter flight, was met by FBI agents who questioned him at the airport"

Hi Jo. If that post was your first chapter, I didn't mean to take Conrad's style to heart! In any case, you said: If you and H. talked about the "Duane" area as being the same as a FBI search area, does that mean you're confirming that the FBI considered the "Duane" area as a possible DZ before you ever talked to them? We've been debating the question of whether this idea of a new "DZ" was bogus, and something the FBI knew for ages. If H. and you were talking about the "Duane" area as a search area, doesn't that mean the FBI considered it a possible DZ way back when? I'm confused. But hey it's the DBC thread, so that's the goal!

It is absolutely essential that you continue. Hey on a positive note, research on this Cooper thing has made me reflect on lots of history. (edit) One thing I wonder about Sluggo, is that it's easy to create myths just by selective "fact" reporting. There are no facts in the Cooper case. So it's just a question of what information do you gather and present as "interesting". His website presents a point of view about what's interesting. A random example is his weak presentation of an apparent 1995 NB6 rig. If I give Sluggo a hard time, it's only because he sometimes seems to get caught up in "facts" as just being what he says are facts. It's all fuzzy. There are millions of "facts" from 1971 and the subsequent FBI search. The question is "which ones are interesting". So there's an editorial function. Which is good. Does Sluggo recognize his? I don't know. My take was that early on, his early bias was "I want to cozy up to the FBI because they have the only thing I trust as data". Which is fine. But what if the FBI is the myth maker, unknowingly? Best to accumulate info from everywhere, and have an editorial bias that maximizes information creation. You can always throw out stuff that doesn't stand the test of time. Just my two cents.

Write it up Jo! You don't even need to get a printer. You can self publish on the web pretty cheaply or freely nowadays. Get your message out. However deep the conspiracy goes, heads will roll. The American people will back you up when you lay it out for them.