snowmman

georger: Hi Georger, No, it was more like I was leaning over the bar and yelling down to Tom K, who was slumped over in his stool, and while I ordered another pint, yelling down to Tom, "Hey Tom...wudda u think?" (edit) which is a fair question, cause Tom seems to have gone way out on a limb, saying he's sure about the paper bag story being not possible, without providing the detail on why. So if Tom can say that, I'm wondering "what else can Tom say?"

as you know, Brian provided a variety of slightly different descriptions of the money configuration when found. One interesting one he used in a video was that they were like a piece of "petrified wood" which doesn't make sense. In another he says they were stacked, with a subtle implication maybe that would imply something about burial. But the "ball" idea you mention seems to jive with a "petrified wood" kind of idea. Could all 3 bundles have been part of this "wad"? Early on, when we had discussions on this with SafecrackingPLF, I remember an implicit assumption that the 3 bundles were just localized to an area. Unknown if contiguous in any way. We've never been clear on whether there was just one single clump, or multiple seperate bundles, at the find. If there are many brown bills, one might think that means the bundles were laying separated. since they would have to be separated to get the different exposure that would lead to browning? (assuming the browning effect doesn't penetrate more than 1 bill?) It's all very confusing. The bits and pieces of info we have (which is poor) don't seem to add up for the money find. (edit) Another odd thing, is that it appears that the 3 main bundles may have had equivalent extra wear on the "face" side of the bundles (assuming all faces oriented the same way), compared to the bottoms. This would be odd, since it would mean there was top wear that was different than bottom wear, and it was consistent on all 3 bundles? I'm guessing from the photos, but hopefully you see the question I have.

Jo, since you didn't have the bandwidth to use Youtube effectively, I uploaded the 727 video for you here at DZ.com. You, and anyone I guess, can download it here http://www.dropzone.com/videos/Miscellaneous/Air_America_727_air_drop_test_70/_71_1130.html Right click on the download button, and use "save link as ..." to save it. Then click on it to play. It's a windows media (wmv) file, so just clicking on it should play it in windows media player (or whatever else you've got setup) for .wmv files. You might right click on view it at 200% in windows media player. (or full screen) If there was any need, I could download the higher resolution of the full movie, and create a better resoultion, but I don't think that would add anything.

Speaking of Alaska, I'll type in this hijack report from Mar. 9, 1987. Good example of how unpredictable stuff can be with hjijacks? The flight was going Seattle to Anchorage. The guy apparently lived in New Jersey. Put his finger in jacket to simulate a pistol. Anchorage, Alaska 3/9/87 "Two crew members of an Alaska Airlines jet thwarted a hijack attempt by wrestling to the ground a Spanish-speaking man who had bluffed his way into the cockpit and tried to force the plane to Cuba, officials said. Several passengers aboard the Boeing 727 helped the flight crew immobilize the man in the Saturday afternoon incident which lasted about five minutes. Juan Tapanes, 30, a native of Cuba, was taken into custody by the FBI when the jet landed in Anchorage at 1:45 p.m said Federal Aviation Administration spokesman Paul Steucke." Who'd have thought a Spanish-speaking Cuban native, would try hijacking a plane (a 727 even) from Anchorage to Cuba, in 1987.

Tom On the day the ingrams brought their money to the FBI, 12 bundles were laid out for the press to photograph. There are 3 good photos. The corbis photo, from a slant. An AP photo, from above. some color pics, from various video snaps (news) Later on, I think when the money was given to Brian after the court case 6 years later, we have another snap from a video. (I actually forget if it was then or later) This time, the bills show some with brown tops. There were no brown tops visible on the 12 bundles in 1980. where did the brown tops come from? the bottom of the stack of bills? How?

Ignoring any evaluation of whether what you propose is possible, or whether your attempt is sound, why would you bother? If the meaning is already in Jo's post, and you're just presenting it differently, we'd only need your post if you somehow have a decoder ring that we don't have. It's like if someone writes a poem in French, and we all know French, we don't need someone's poor attempt at an English translation? We have the same Jo decoder ring you do. So your posts are only interesting in that they provide extra information...i.e. what you think the decoder ring is. Isn't that odd? Why do you want to tell us what your decoder ring is? Are you deranged? Georger might say "yes" since he thinks most people are deranged. I would say "yes" because I think Georger is deranged. Yossarian would say "I told you so".

if a suicide bomber can be "not deranged", then Cooper is flying well below the radar. http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing22.html Suicide bombers are not deranged, psychiatrists say. Under group pressure, they see logic and a 'higher purpose' in their actions. Los Angeles Times/July 30, 2002 By Benedict Carey The list includes architects and drifters, engineers and poets, teenagers and middle-aged men, a 30-year-old woman, an 18-year-old girl, and, every week it seems, someone else, someone different. "You hear people say that these are all desperate people, or poor people whose families need the money," said Rohan Gunaratna, a terrorism specialist at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. "This is nonsense." Long before the recent rash of suicide bombings in Israel, psychiatrists, terrorism specialists and others were searching for clues to what prompts people to strap on explosives and annihilate themselves in a crowded street or cafe. Experts examined psychological profiles. They interviewed Sri Lankan separatists and imprisoned Palestinian militants. They studied the mass suicide at Jonestown, Guyana, in 1978 and the Japanese kamikaze missions of World War II. Their emerging understanding contradicts the notion that suicide bombers are deranged fanatics. The evidence is just the opposite: They tend to be free of obvious mental illness. Many are competent, successful, even loving and loved. ... These did not appear to be mentally unbalanced people, researchers say. Indeed, crazed loners are not likely to be selected for suicide missions. "The crucial quality that recruiters look for is mental stability," said Jerrold Post, a psychiatrist at George Washington University who recently completed a study of 35 Palestinian militants in Israeli jails, several of whom had recruited suicide attackers. ... Suicide as a Statement The latter 20th century offers many examples of suicide as a political or religious statement, however eccentric or inscrutable. In Northern Ireland in 1981, 10 prisoners starved themselves to death to protest British rule. In 1978, more than 900 American followers of People's Temple leader Jim Jones poisoned themselves on his orders at the Jonestown compound in Guyana. Five years ago, Marshall Applewhite and 38 of his followers in the Heaven's Gate cult killed themselves in Rancho Santa Fe, Calif. They expected to shed their earthly bonds and travel to a "next level" of existence on a spacecraft they believed was shadowing the Hale-Bopp comet. ... "I think in this sense," said Lifton, the Harvard psychiatrist, "all suicide has to do with making a lasting statement one could not make in life." ..

Quote No. I always want to get home to my family. My goals are closer to home and things at hand. I don't get it. Are there stewardesses where you live? You live at the airport?

are you supposed to be a shrink or something georger? The subconscious mind always puts out its fears and desires simultaneously, when confronted with the unknown. Of course Cooper wants AK, don't we all? And he wants that $10 burger too!

Well, I'll grant you that Missouri Bob was deranged. The transmission went in his pickup, but reverse still worked so he just drove everywhere in reverse. Whenever I think of Crazy Bob, I think of that "Show-Me State" license plate coming towards me. John, he was deranged too. But he had good reason. Dick C. Probably not. But he was the best dancer! Tina had her bible. Not deranged, by legal fiat.

this is just more background showing that analyzing Vietnam purely from the military enlisted or officer viewpoint is incomplete. I've touched on the USAID/CIA salad bowl before. http://www.historynet.com/cords-winning-hearts-and-minds-in-vietnam.htm/print CORDS: Winning Hearts and Minds in Vietnam In May 1967 an organization known as CORDS—Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support—was formed to coordinate the U.S. civil and military pacification programs. A unique hybrid civil-military structure directly under general William C. Westmoreland, the COMUSMACV, CORDS was headed by a civilian, Ambassador Robert W. Komer, who was appointed as Westmoreland’s deputy. CORDS pulled together all the various U.S. military and civilian agencies involved in the pacification effort, including the State Department, the AID, the USIA and the CIA. U.S. military or civilian province senior advisers were appointed, and CORDS civilian/military advisory teams were dispatched throughout South Vietnam’s 44 provinces and 250 districts. One such senior adviser was then Lt. Col. Philip Bolté, U.S. Army. Upon graduation from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point in October 1950, 2nd Lt. Bolté reported for duty with the 1st Cavalry Division in Korea. That November and December, Bolté participated in the Eighth Army’s retreat from North Korea, where he and his fellow soldiers “went 100 miles north and 200 miles south, for a net loss of 100 miles.” Wounded in action, he was taken to Japan for treatment. Years later, he would tell his soldiers in Vietnam, “If you have a choice to go to a cold war or a hot war, take the hot one!” Retired from the U.S. Army with the rank of brigadier general, Bolté was interviewed by Al Hemingway in 1994 about his experiences with CORDS. Vietnam: When did you arrive in Vietnam? Bolté: In December 1967. I was assigned as a province senior adviser in Quang Tin province, I Corps section of South Vietnam. Tam Ky was the capital. VN: What were the duties of a province senior adviser? Bolté: My assignment was to advise the province chief in military operations, pacification efforts and civil affairs, which was virtually everything in that province.

November 4, 1970 news article with photo (poor) of Mary. Mary Woods, jumping up in Fairbanks, AK. over 500 jumps by then? (she was jumping for 4 years? 22 years old?) says they jumped when it was 25 below. (sorry for the fuzzy article, it was longer than my screen) Gold Nugget Sky Divers? There were some other Fairbanks clubs: Fairbanks Skydivers?

:) yeah, and at DZ.com how come it seems like the stories always end with a successful coupling. Man, you skydivers are good!

there were a couple of hijacks that went north to canada that year? here's a kid: 2/26/71 who decided on Vancouver went they told him Cuba was too far.

this was just something random at http://www.nlhs.com/guests-05.htm that seemed fun to note From: Ed xxx of MN 20 Dec 12005 I'm sure that all of us who have served at Navy Lakehurst are grateful for the preservation of it's history. My sincere thanks to all who have contributed to establishing the "NLHS," and to the creation of this most interesting web site. Over 90+ years Navy Lakehurst was host to many tenant commands. One of the earliest and possibly longest, but none more colorful, was the Parachute Rigger School. Established in 1924 by Chief Petty Officers Alva Starr and Lyman Ford, the school was set up in a small shed attached to hanger #1. Precision workmanship was demanded, emphasized by requiring students to make a free- fall parachute jump with a chute they had personally packed. No other school in the Navy has had a more challenging performance test. The first parachute jumps made at Lakehurst were from bi-wing aircraft, with the jumpers standing between and at the outer edges of the wings - since there was room for only the pilot in the tiny cockpit. This was followed by having the students parachute from the open gondolas of early LTA aircraft, and the procedure used may have been where Buster Keaton got ideas for some of his daring stunts. Rope ladders were dropped over the side of the carriage, and the students were required to lower themselves to the very end of the ladder, grasp the ripcord in one hand while hanging on to the ladder with the other-then let go and pull the ripcord immediately. Presumably, the intent of this procedure was to allow the parachutist to drop below the slip stream of the propellers, which could foul his canopy while opening. A three second free-fall from the gondola would have accomplished the same thing! However, the prevailig knowledge of parachuting at the time, was that a person would black-out in free fall. Until multi-place acircraft became available, the Lakehurst LTA community provided the means for the Parachute Rigger students to make their graduation jump. On June 28th 1961, as a parting farewell to those SilverGiants of the sky,several Instructors at the PR School re-enacted the graduation jump as it was first done - - minus the rope ladders. These fearless Riggers leap into the force of zero forward air speed, undaunted by seagulls hovering nearby, and wrote a final chapter to an aviation brotherhood established so long ago. My Parachute Log Book indicates we jumped from ZPG-2's - KE-5, at an altitude of 3,000 feet over the "Jump Circle" in the woods west of the main part of the base. Unfortunately, my memory fails to bring forth the names of all the jumpers that day, except for Chuck Seymour (PRC, Ret - a NJ guy) who slipped out the rear hatch just before me.With great pride, Chuck and I lay claim to being "The Last Two Great Blimp Jumpers."

georger says: "This applies from NWA officials to the FAA psychiatrist, to Scott, to Himmelsbach " remember how the shrink proposed that Cooper was going to have Tina jump with him and the bomb left behind to go off. Was the shrink insane? How in the hell was Cooper going to get Tina out of the plane? Beat her senseless and toss her out and hope she wouldn't low pull? There is no way anyone on that plane would have jumped unless the plane had lost both wings and was spiralling into the ground. Why did anyone even listen to that shrink? He sounds deranged.

Ah Alaska! home of the man-camp and the $10 burger. The little airports in Alaska are crazy. Almost like trains in third world countries, where strange people are carrying and checking in all sorts of strange things, weapons, massive tools, etc. Pre 9/11, I remember a sign on on the ticket counter warning that you couldn't carry those wicked seal skinning knives on board. Box cutters? that ain't a knife, this is a knife!

been over this a thousand times and Ckret has posted to these points - read past posts. what did you say georger?

Ok, this is a little insensitive, but I ran into an jumping accident report/death in a 9/4/62 newspaper. Happened in San Jose, CA evidently. In the '60s, it seemed they liked printing those kinds of stories. One of the jumpers survived. Was 37 years old, James Nicholson. That's interesting to me, because I've always wondered about Cooper being in his late 30's in the early '60s, jumping, and that provides an example. The 2nd article claims they were members of the Golden Gate Parachute Club and were attempting a baton pass. Anyone here go back that far? What we don't know is how many people in their late 30's might have jumped in the WA area in the early 60's. ps. Here's a listing of old parachute clubs posted by Thom Lyons at http://www.myskydivingclub.com/oldest-dz-3706.html It lists the Golden Gate Parachute Club. (edit) Thom was referencing mags. So there's redundancy..i.e. the total list is not as big as it looks below.

377 says: Here's what we don't know about the net the FBI cast in '71. And we'll never know since Ckret was kidnapped. 1) How far back did they look? I've proposed '62-'71 as the critical window based on arrival of 727 technology and civilian freefall skydiving technology. 2) What about non-US? The people we might be interested in might have been travelling around the world at any time before and/or after 11/24/71. How did the FBI deal with that issue? 3) Sunglasses. We've talked about the generic nature of the tie clasp and tie. But what about the sunglasses? The '81 composite (color) shows the frames as being silver. But they were all plastic? (edit) I think there was testimony that said that....Why would someone in the Northwest in November have sunglasses? 4) "Mediterranean" skin tone. Was this a tan, makeup, or natural skin color? Could Tina tell if it was a tan that was accumulated over a period of years? 5) Balding, receding, or combover? The initial '71-'72 composite has what looks like a combover to me on Cooper. But it morphed into a receding hairline by '81. It would be nice to understand the hair issue better. Also, the hair was described as "greasy" or oddly black by the guy across from Cooper? Was this a Vitalis kind of deal? Might make sense for a balding guy in 1971. '81 composite showing the silver/black frames is attached.

I've been trying to understand whether there was regular flights to and from McChord and Vietnam. Orange1's news article was good. Attached is a document where a guy analyzed the issues..oh too big ..link: http://www.veteransvoteyourcause.com/files/Briefing_for_NVLSP_Short_Version.doc with flying to/from Southeast Asia from/to CONUS for a variety of jet aircraft in use during the '60s (civilian and military). It's amazingly detailed, and might be interesting to some pilots. Has distances, plane capabilities (not 727) etc. (edit) down around page 12-14 it starts having specific routes and refuel stops. Apparently these were the actual routes used? I also wondered if there was any tracking of US people coming back from vietnam. I suppose things weren't computerized, so probably not much was done in terms of the Cooper search back then, looking at incoming folks in 1971? Maybe too many? (edit) From that doc: "This discussion is critical and essential to understanding the routing of military and military contracted flights between the Continental United States (CONUS) and Southeast Asia (SEA). It graphically illustrates why many veterans indicate that when flying to SEA they indicate stops in Alaska and Japan; specifically Eielson or Elmendorf Air Force Bases in Alaska, and Yokota, Kadena, or Naha Air Force Bases in Japan. These stops were along the Great Circle Routes and not only shortened the distance, but also utilized the “polar easterlies” for “pushing” the aircraft past normal aircraft range limitations. It shows that military and military contracted aircraft returning from SEA would try to use flight paths as close as possible to the trade winds and jet streams which move from west to east."

good data in orange1's skyjack "database" link yearly totals on skyjacks. evidently world wide? ('31-'61 not included,) '62 - 3 '63 - 3 '64 - 4 '65 - 5 '66 - 4 '67 - 6 '68 - 35 '69 - 94 '70 - 97 '71 - 72 '72 - 76 '73 - 33 '74 - 33 '76 - 26 '77 - 32 There were 7 helicopter hijacks in the time period tracked. That's ballsy. I wouldn't want to unnerve a heli pilot? 1 Zlin cropduster A Catalina flying boat, and a Grumman G-73

The Church Committee produced a report investigating the CIA's practices. Orange1 provided a link to a section above. Church Committee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee I've attached the snippet which seems to say the CIA asked for mods to the 727. i.e. "As a result, the Agency acquired Boeing 727's and convinced Boeing to modify the 727 by enlarging the ventral exit, enhancing its airdrop capability. quoting: So the theory was that the 727's would be used on MAC contracts to be available on an overriding basis if needed for major national security operation. They were used, usually when they had spare time. To my recollection, they were only called off once, off the actual contract time, and this was for a possible use which didn't go through. But the White House asked if we had the capability to move something from here to there. I think from the Philippines to somewhere in Southeast Asia. I don't recall. They pulled one of them off the MAC contract and had it available. I think read to go, in twelve hours, all set for the operation. And the operation was never called. But it showed what the capability was. And what they had to do was get substitute service for the MAC contract." This is interesting. I read a report of secret low level 727 flights to India around that time. This case doesn't sound like it was that though. background from another site: "In 1966, the CIA even scheduled four Boeing 727 flights between Okinawa and “Oak Tree”, to be made at low level to avoid radar and anti-American opposition at New Delhi – evidently using the aircraft of Air America / SAT" 'Oak Tree' was a location on the east side of India.

The news article orange1 had a snippet of is attached. It's interesting. I was wondering how people got from Washington state to Vietnam and back since it's too far for a single jet flight. There's a number of possiblities that were addressed in a document i found. But Orange1's article, while a DC8, points out something interesting. The flight was enroute from Tacoma to Vietnam (Cam Ranh Bay) (edit) McChord air base, specifically. Evidently it was headed for a refuel in Japan, (Yokota?) So that's interesting. It's unclear how regular these flights were. Maybe Northwest was chartered by military for a bunch of WA Vietnam flights back then? This was July 3, 1968 in the papers (attached)

good stuff orange1. will sift thru. You remember when I posted about the attempted hijack of military jets in vietnam. There were apparently two attempts on c-141's. Now that's bizarre! here's an actual air force plane history document that mentions the hijack and PVT Georger Hardin. (shots fired, loadmaster shot, plane damaged) http://airforcehistoryindex.org/data/000/494/831.xml