snowmman

No need to confess. I know the pressure to is strong. It was obvious, when I discovered you have paper bags and rubber bands, that you were connected somehow.

By the way, while I may be spending a fair amount of time in the DB Cooper thread my primary motivation for being on the site is because it is a skydiving website, and there is no reason to mislead other skydivers about who I am ... and I do happen to know a number of posters (jumpers of course) personally. No need to defend your 'deep cover'. All good moles take a while to establish themselves :) hey did anyone notice that "Deep Throat" died yesterday. (95 years old) RIP Felt. he was 2nd in command at FBI when he revealed Watergate to reporters. He was passed over for the top job, by Nixon, when Hoover died, in 1972. Mistake? What if Felt had been tapped by Nixon? Would Nixon have not been shafted! The vagaries of history! What if there was an Internet then!) (edit) Hey....in 1975 Felt looked like Duane. That means maybe Felt was Cooper? Was the money needed to pay the plumbers? Felt was in on Watergate, and he did a double-cross? Did Felt kill Hoover?

I was having a thought, that the Ivers/Anthrax case is an interesting parallel to the Cooper case. Both force one to make deductions about experience and skill levels. Both confounded the FBI. Both show the strengths and weaknesses of what the FBI does and how they operate. They are separated hugely in time. A quick assumption would be that technology has dramatically increased the FBI's capabilities. But the Ivers case shows that it's not just about technology, but how the humans perceive things. There was a lot of technology eventually used in the Ivers thing, but my take is that there were perception hurdles also. Like I've said, I know little about the FBI, so I'm wildly speculating. I know even less about FBI+CooperSearch in 1971 or any time period since then. It does appear that it wasn't super hard to solve any of the other hijack cases. So solving those, doesn't make me think "oh, the FBI is great at solving hard hijack cases" If someone knows of a "hard" hijack case other than Cooper, let's discuss it.

sure, now. But after a couple years of harassment on this thread, and you go and hijack a plane, THEN it becomes interesting! :) Your posts are getting good and detailed. Keep going!

orange1 said: They might have. Do you have any information on that? Are you saying they went to DZ's in 1971? Why would that be interesting or complete? What information would it provide? Does anyone know this? I've heard a lot of myth but no data. Was anyone here questioned by the FBI about knowledge of Cooper, back in the day? What kind of questions did they ask? Don't we have to start by assuming there was no good search, until we have data that shows what happened?

Ja! - as per my profile data in the left hand column. I actually was musing a bit whether Orange1 could be misleading us with the profile for some strange reason, but decided no. You guys are always mentioning "supersearching". Orange1's case is a good example. The only limits are really when you start to feel queasy about prying into someone's data. For example, with Orange1, the B license number provides the link to start getting anything you want to know about Orange1. Orange1: was I correct about the rigger's first name? I'm curious. We all leak information here and there thru our travels on the web. It's easy to gather up all those leaks. That's why we should all have an opinion about privacy, data retention, Patriot Act etc. DZ.com should have a better statement for their site about privacy stuff etc. The sad reality of life (as Cooper showed) is that anything that is exploitable, will be exploited. (by someone who doesn't share a group's ethical/cultural goals)

good post orange1 you said "So this is a way of reconciling a novice jumper with a possibly successful deployment." Why do you think he was a novice jumper? What does novice mean, specifically, when you use it?

Cooper was a dog. That's why he didn't talk much. Phil Day! call me and we'll do lunch. My number's on the web. (edit) His filmography is here http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1637762/ He is supposedly 5'11" tall. "In 2004, the series that he'd established visually and stylistically on Lyndon B. Johnson for The History Channel won an International Emmy for best camera work" Maybe he can get me an LBJ rubber mask, finally?

Uh, and why would that be a good thing? Are you afraid of Cooper? or you think that would deter future Coopers? How about tar and feather first?

The Legend of D.B. Cooper Death by Natural Causes by Pat and Ron Forman I don't know if there's any good sex in there yet. They say they dispel myths in the book! Tom K. Put down your instruments and buy this book! This is also the first notice I've seen of the National Geographic documentary being filmed. (Edge West Productions of Los Angeles? headed by Phil Day?) http://www.legendofdbcooper.com/ http://www.legendofdbcooper.com/pictures.html article: http://www.dispatchnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=6&SubSectionID=6&ArticleID=1726&TM=39214 They are selling the book at their web site. There are a bunch of links to articles, photos, maps etc. They are having big fun! "While at the D B Cooper celebration in Ariel, WA on November 29th, Ron, Barbara's Daughter and I were interviewed for a documentary the will be shown on National Geographic television in late summer or early fall, 2009. It was quite an adventure. All three of us definitely decided we're not cut out to be television personalities. The film crew will be coming to our area in mid December to complete the filming." Jo: you're just another wannabe! You gotta get cracking. Remember some more stuff! competing with 100 jobs! "This book provides you with a believable and exciting story that leaves you to make up your own mind on its validity. We started out to write a book about the exciting life of a very dear friend of ours. Even without the D. B. Cooper confession, the story is remarkable. It contains humor, emotions, and excitement. Before we met our friend, he led a very different life than when we knew him. He had been a very rough individual, serving in the Merchant Marines during the war, riding with the Hell's Angels motorcycle gang, and fighting his way through over one-hundred jobs and two marriages in his attempts to hide his true inner feelings. "

The Great Pictorial History of World Crime By Jay Robert Nash, 2004 is a great resource, and has a section on Terrorism, with major events listed by date. And while I know the 1755 pages were pricey at $269 http://www.amazon.com/Great-Pictorial-History-World-Crime/dp/1928831206 we all have a copy at our desk. It's great for getting snapshots of the major hijackings. There are a number of ransom hijacks in there. BUT: The Cooper hijack on Nov 24, 1971 is not listed The hijack that happened 3 days later: Nov 27, 1971, is. And those losers needed three people! And one later drowned! Fools! http://books.google.com/books?id=3TbelG-xZjwC&pg=PA1565#PPA1565,M1 The above link gets you to page 1565 to see for yourself. I can only conclude, sadly, that Cooper is not a terrorist! This must be corrected? (edit) The Table of Contents though, is sure to make Jo drool! The possibilities! http://books.google.com/books?id=3TbelG-xZjwC&printsec=toc&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0

From one point of view, we might view Cooper as a droid from some mindless bureaucracy, going whichever way higher forces dictated for him. (georger likes to push this model, I think). Another point of view, that paints a more positive portrait, says Cooper knew how to bend like bamboo. If someone is successful at some task, regardless of how it is achieved, shouldn't we initially assume the more positive portrait? Why start with a negative one? For people who might have known Cooper, would they have described him in the negative light, or a more positive light of "one who is like bamboo?" Every profile of Cooper I've read, is negative. Would Cooper be more findable, by being more recognizable to those who knew him, by writing a profile in the most positive light possible, given his behavior and possible psyche? (edit) And reminding people that we're talking about "in 1971"

I guess it happens. here's an accident report on the Ilyushin 76 where the cargo doors opened and a bunch of people got sucked out (2003) http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20030508-0 http://www.airdisaster.com/news/0503/09/news.shtml Also here's a translation of the 2000 MD83 case where luggage flew out the open cargo door while in flight. âle/Héraklion (AP) a MD83 of Crossair connecting Cairo in Basle was constrained to land in Héraklion on the island of Crete in the night of Saturday to Sunday. The employees of the Egyptian airport left a door of the baggage compartment opened, according to the company. Under these conditions, the cabin could not be pressurized. Nobody was wounded, but the plane lost luggage in flight. Matthias Schmid, person in charge of the security at Crossair, explained that the pilot of the MD83 had noted, before takeoff, that a baggage compatement door was not closed. He asked for twice to the ground staff to carry out checks. He finally took off, thinking that the indicator lamp did not function correctly. The pilot then realized that the cabin could not be pressurized. Because of the significant weight of the plane, there was no question of landing in Cairo. The plane thus continued its flight at low altitude (to the maximum 3.000 meters) above the Mediterranean. According to Mr. Schmid, the 150 passengers did not notice anything before the landing with Héraklion. It is only after the landing in Crete which one noted that the plane had lost luggage. Moreover, the coating of the plane was damaged. The passengers and the six members of the crew were never endangered, according to Crossair. The travellers arrived at the airport of Basle-Mulhouse Sunday at 14.00 hours with another flight.

there's this still of a cargo jet making an approach to landing with the door open. Is this it? I'll see if there's a video.

"Locals wanted greenbacks (real U.S. currency) to deposit in their bank accounts as MPC was not negotiable in local banks. The Piaster was the Vietnamese money. To help the local economy, the Piaster and MPC exchange rate was almost equal in value. The going legal rate was about 125 Piaster for $1.00 MPC. However a local could give you as much as 3 times the value of their Piaster to get their hands on military MPC. They would then take that MPC (which was useless to them) and give you (G.I.s) twice as much MPC for any greenback dollar you would give them. How would G.I.s get greenbacks? Simply have it sent from home. So a G.I. could take $300 in greenback, trade it to a local for $600 MPC, then take that $600 in MPC and get a money order for greenbacks and send it back home. That was part of the black market at work."

I've been doing a lot of researching around Vietnam, and every once in a while I find something unique that I think someone else here might think is cool (it's just amazing what's on the web) Safe Conduct Pass. Attached. "During the war, South Vietnam government has created many "Chieu Hoi" (Open Arms) programs, opening a chance for the Communist-disinclined troop to lay down their guns and cooperate with the local authorities. Safe-conduct Pass was part of the Chieu Hoi program in which the leaflets would be spread (usually by airplane) out across the Communist controlled areas."

Now Snow, (wiggles finger back and forth) don't quote me as saying "nothing possible", I didn't say that. The money underwent degradation that hopefully can be pinpointed as to cause and effect. This we hope will expand on the story of what happened AFTER Cooper jumped. Anything human or fiber on the tie would have to connect back to a particular piece of evidence like the parachute etc. At the moment I can't imagine what that would be, but we hope to have a look at the tie at some point in the future. Tom (wiggle back) so you're confident there's no degradation that's measurable on the tie? You don't care if the tie was new or old? Do you think Cooper wore that tie a lot? Does it matter? I mentioned two things that could be tested. Are you saying "Not worth it, money is more important" hey, whose case is this anyhow! Oh that's right, it's Quade's! "Troi dat oi!! Co mot nguoi My!" "Thiet? O dau?" "O do. DO!! Coi khong? "Ong. Ong la nguoi My."

from http://www.bradnewsham.com/articles/staring_down.shtml I liked that he had a clip-on tie, and a J.C. Penney sport coat. Hey $2.50/hr...gotta stretch it! And night clerks never die, they become cab drivers..or teach English in China! Staring Down Greatness Special to The Washington Post In the summer of 1969, when I was perhaps the youngest CIA agent in history (I was 17), and Jack Valenti was beginning his long tenure presiding over the American Motion Picture Association, the two of us almost brought our fragile government grinding to a halt. Let's back up. "Agent" might actually be a stretch. Officially I was a $2.50-an-hour clerk-typist cataloguing films in the film library at CIA headquarters in Langley. The CIA kept a large vault of films and shipped them to its spooks worldwide who might be looking for some non-lethal way to pass the time between covert activities. Much of my summer was passed in screening-room reveries in the company of a white-haired, crew-cut film library lifer named Marco. (Certain names have been changed in the interest of national security, and because I can't remember half of them.) Marco kept a stash of some of the better movies (I remember one much-rewound scene involving the young Angie Dickinson and no clothing worth mentioning), and most of my summer-hire pals thought I had life pretty good. .. A week later I was rewinding the seduction scene from "The Graduate" when Marco banged open the screening room door. "Newsham, they want you down the hall!" Then, after a significant silence he added, "Some real brass." I pulled on my J.C. Penney sports coat, affixed my CIA badge and my clip-on tie. Crew-cut men in colorless suits crowded around an oval table in the conference room, smoking cigarettes and sizing me up. Mr. Beatie looked nervous. "These men would like to ask you some questions, Bradley. Can I get you a Coke or anything?" "No, thanks." I would take mine like a man. ... I'm 48 years old now. Jack Valenti is 78. For more than 30 years he's been head of the MPAA. For 15 years I've been a San Francisco cab driver. Last Sunday night I parked near a bar at 18th and Castro, found a chair and sat back to watch the motion picture industry's biggest night, and to salute the most powerful man I ever threw a scare into.

I love this pic from the url Orange1 posted. I think I posted this pic before. Black Helis, babes in short pants, sunglasses. Can't blame them for thinking life was good! Come on Georger, loosen up, you gotta admit, doesn't this pic get you thinking about the path not taken?

the tie has a metal clip. maybe fatigue analysis of clip could tell how often it had been used. I would think the clip would bend over time as you clip it on. The tie, has a single metal hook, right? it's not like the ones i had as a kid, with two plastic arms sticking under the collar. Tom's got a metal guy, right?

be interesting, trivia wise, to know if clip on ties were sold at the Post Exchanges in 1971. I guess one could say it's obvious the tie could come from anywhere. But I think even if so, we should agree on what "anywhere" means. Sometimes it seems like we don't have common views of possibilities. I'm really curious about any wear or age-dating of the tie. Was it brand-new, for instance? Was it ever washed? Did it still have sizing from the original manufacture? Who knows what could be told from the tie.

We don't have the tie and haven't given it a thought at this point. I don't think it is better evidence since you would be looking for human types of clues and its been handled by everyone for the last 37 years. Tom Why would you be looking for human clues. I said fiber. You like sand, are you sure there are no fiber clues on the tie? Or sand clues? or ?? Surprised you would just say "nothing possible" without knowing or looking. (edit) Note the money has been handled just as much as the tie. So your argument doesn't make sense.

Doesn't mean anything, but I like trivial details. I was searching news, and saw this recent reminisce about someone ordering something from mail order while the father was in Vietnam. Family Tree Bears Wealth of Christmas History NewsBlaze, CA - Dec 9, 2008 The tree was originally purchased from a JC Penney's mail order catalogue by the family and shipped to his father during his second tour in Vietnam. ...

I was wondering: Did some dream team contact J.C. Penney and find out if the black tie was distributed world wide for sale? or was it just U.S. or ??? Based on the label on the Tie, can we be reasonably certain the tie was purchased in the U.S.? be nice to have the exact wording of the label on the tie,that identified it as J.C. Penney. Be nice to have some kind of wear test, if possible, to understand how old it might have been, since purchase, at the time Cooper was wearing it. Hey Tom, you can become a fiber expert! paper, linen, ties, dinosaur bones, paintballs...it's all the same! example: Is there anything embedded in the fibers of the tie besides DNA? Has everything been squeezed out of the tie? It's a much better evidence container than the money. (edit) trivia: The founder of J.C. Penney, James Cash Penney, died in 1971. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C._Penney

thanks for the reply Tom. Another thing I've been wondering about. Georger: you mentioned that you rustled up a "dream team"...i.e. plural, to re-examine all the evidence in this case. Tom seems great. Who else is on the "dream team" ?? Is there anything else going on?