maadmax

I don't know about you, but the evidence is there. Just look within. That's just plain bollocks Excuse me for my lack of English diction, but what does that expression mean? ...

Head...Wall....Bangs... not my words but sums it up rather nicely... [sic]So, too, for the "feeling" that God exists. This is no different than the "feeling" I once had that the Tao governs the universe, or the "feeling" others have had that aliens visit them, the spirits of the dead talk to them, or several gods and nature spirits live all around them. People have "felt" the existence of so many contradictory things that we know "feeling" something is the poorest possible evidence we can have. Most people "feel" something completely different than we do, and since there is no way to tell whether your feeling is correct and theirs is wrong, it is just as likely that theirs is correct and yours is wrong. And since there are a million completely different "feelings" and only one can be true, it follows that the odds are worse than a million to one against your feeling being true. So "feeling" that God exists fails to meet even a minimal standard of evidence I find nothing in your quote to disagree with. But apart from an inward spiritual pursuit, knowledge of God is unattainable , as is manifestly obvious by a lot of the posts here. I can only speak for myself, but I have always had an intense interest even craving to know God. I have spent a good part of my life creating my own value system and reality with less than optimal results. As I have adopted Gods viewpoint and reality, the insatiable need I felt within my self awareness has been quieted and satisfied. Right or wrong, better or worse, it is truly a blessing in my life. ...

Usually a typical Christian reply to this is "God has its own ways and we shall not try to understand them as we cannot anyway". Which basically means everything they do might make no sense at all, and it's still possible that at the end only married gay people will go to Heaven. After all, it would be just one of those "own ways". Well then, the moral of your story is pretty clear. Don't waste time on things you can't change or understand. There are plenty of things you can understand and change which would be a better use of your time. Such as your own personal relationship with God. ...

Currently there is an enourmous ammount of evidence to suggest that gods DO NOT exist, and it is ever increasing, and not a shred of evidence to suggest they DO exist. However I am much easier to please then you, I will change my mind when there is ONE piece of evidence to suggest your god or any god exists. I don't know about you, but the evidence is there. Just look within. ...

I think a good way to demonstrate an open mind is to be able to complete the following sentencce in a reasonable way I will change my mind when ALL of the evidence suggests otherwise.

--and what exactly is that, Provide a meaning and purpose to life, remove the barrier between God and man, teach and empower us to live spiritually pure lives, would be good for starters. --and by the way I notice you completely ignored my last post. Not at all, I don't know why things are the way they are, I just pick up the pieces and put them back together the best I can. The closer I am to the Truth the better things work out, and the more everything makes sense. ...

That's just it. It isn't a choice. I can't just choose to "believe" something that doesn't make any sense to me. If I "chose to believe" I would just be lying to myself and I would know it. Nothing in science needs to be believed. It isn't a requirement. Christianity is more of a recognition than it is a belief in some far fetched stories. If you can grasp the separation that exists between you and God, then it is easy to understand. Christ is the way back to the relationship with God that we were created for. ...

Well, as it is, I was not consulted when every thing was being set up, otherwise I would have lobbied for things to be a bit different. This is a very confusing place, and our species has been created with a strong instinct to sort out the chaos both scientifically and spiritually. I think enough clues exist to do both. Who knows why things are the way they are. I just take what I see and experience and draw the best conclusions I can. If you have found something better I am all ears. But you will have to do amazing things to beat what Christ is offering us in real time. ...

> My proof is that I pray for help and help arrives. --David Berkowitz believed that his neighbor's dog was possessed by a demon, and that the demon communicated with him. He answered Berkowitz's questions when he asked them; that was proof enough for him that there was a higher power at work. He followed those instructions and killed six people. --I don't think that his claim that he asked questions and they were answered lends any amount of truth to his claim. The proof , as always, is in the pudding. David Berkowitz acted on his false beliefs and committed horrible crimes. He is now in jail for life. My bet is that FallingOsh is leading a very productive, fulfilled, complete life since his belief system is based on a true interpretation of reality and what makes it work. ...

Good example of: Preconceived conclusions + scientific theory + faith ==== FACT... Would you explain your assertion? Where specifically is there indication of "preconceived conclusion" in what Bill wrote?Quote Preconceived conclusion - the world and everything in it formed from a spontaneous eruption of matter, energy, and fortuitous chance occurrences. Scientific theory- primary, secondary, tertiary protein structures that compose the functional and electrical components of the flagella. Faith- a belief in things hoped for. (incorrect) Fact - the bacterial flagella formed totally independent of any preconceived plan for the universe. ... and aren't prophyrin rings just the coolest things. Who would ever think they could just occur by fortunate chance interactions? ...and not to be nosey, what is your IQ? ( I know it must be pretty high)

Selfish and stupid, why not pray for something significant, like the end of world hunger? but as that doesn't really effect you then who cares hey also it will just provide another example how spectacularly bad your god is at answering prayer, and we wouldn't want that now would we.. Are you familiar with the Dr. Mitchell Krucoff, and his study of 748 patients undergoing heart catheterization and percutaneous coronary intervention??? If it is the study I am thinking of it showed that prayer did not have any significant effect on the out come of the procedure. Which is fine. For me the most powerful part of prayer is for personal growth and understanding. I pray daily and consider it an extremely valuable part of my life experience. I will occasionally make a request, but only ask for it to be answered if it is consistent with Gods plan. Other wise I will pray for understanding, which is almost always answered. ...

I believe in evolution and that seemed straight forward untill I found >out about 'Bacterial Flagellum' The argument there is that since the flagellal motor is so complex, and cannot work as independent parts, there's no way for it to evolve without all the parts being there. That argument is, however, incorrect. The "stator" of the flagellal motor is nearly identical to one type of ionic pump, one use by many cells. When the right protein is stuck into such a pump, it spins due to the action of the pump. Thus, it evolved as a pump, and evolution then adapted it for use as the motive power for the flagella. You find this all over. Our blood clotting mechanisms come from digestive enzymes, because that's what evolution had to work with. Bat wings are basically long hands, because that's the structure that evolution had to work with when they started to evolve. The African flying squirrel is taking a different path, and is beginning to evolve a flying membrane using a separate "strut" or structural member (likely a rib.) Good example of: Preconceived conclusions + scientific theory + faith ==== FACT ...

Also if your still not happy with this outcome, then how about you repeat my prayer. god will surely not ignore you! My prayer it this, that all people would know God. I am fully confident that my prayer will be answered. If not in this life, then in the next. See, wasn't that easy.

If your position is "everything came from something and thus I will call that something God" that's fine. But you risk a gradual whittling away of your conception of God as we understand that more and more of the universe happened that way because it had to. No whittling. God is the source of everything. Everything flows form God in its own unique way. And everything will return to God in its own unique way. ...

And what were those "wrong" motives???? How about just for once, stop making excuses for your God, and consider just for a moment that he might and probably isn't up there... Are you serious? The motives behind your prayer request are pretty obvious. God is in charge of reality construction, not us. We are to submit to His will and purpose and our prayers should reflect that. I don't make excuses for God. I just try to understand Him and act accordingly.

Either way it doesn't matter, as i think it is quite safe to say that our little prayer has fallen on deaf ears, if those ears even exist. So what can we take away from this, 1. Prayer doesnt work 2. God doesnt answer prayer, cant be bothered. 3. ooh and the big one, GOD DOESN'T EXIST..... ..................................or..................... 4. You don't understand what prayer is about and ask for things with improper motives. "You ask and do not receive because you ask with wrong motives" James 4:3 ...

shucks, you were doing so well until you got to your conclusion paragraph. God exists, whether it is us creating our own little universes, or the God of science who created the universe.

Nope. The laws were always there. Someday we will discover more basic truths about the universe, perhaps laws that will allow faster than light travel, or that tell us how gravity propagates more accurately. God won't give them to us. We won't create them. We will just discover the laws that have always been part of the fabric of the universe. Again, I am in complete agreement with what you are saying. But when have you ever seen fabric spontaneously create it self from nothing? ...

--Yawn. Quote I know the feeling. Just because you can parrot back a persons description of a life changing experience, it does not invalidate their experience or the possible conclusion they draw from it. Just as being able to explain evolution does not prove God was uninvolved. It just provides a better understanding of how God works. Some people don't wish to waste their lives waiting for God to play by their rules. They take God as He has revealed Himself and live a much richer life because of it. ...

what is a "emotionally debilitating sin pattern" ???? A destructive behavior pattern that controls you, rather than you being able to control the behavior.

--That's not a problem at all, and you do exactly the same thing. Millenia ago, man couldn't fly; the only people who could were gods. Nowadays we have Orville and Wilbur, and Boeing, and Pratt and Whitney, and Edel. You can strap on a thirty pound backpack, run down a hill and fly away. No god necessary. I agree completely! ...

Without something to verify your experience, you could easily be mislead. Take eyewitness testimony for example. This reference suggests that up to 75% of eyewitnesses are mistaken in their conclusions. So given that personal experience is so unreliable, isn't it better to have something known to be objectively true to back it up before you base your decisions on it?Quote How about the experience of those who are set free from emotionally debilitating sin patterns by connecting with the power God has to give. They could care less if they can give an accurate description of what happened. All they know is that they have found the Truth and the Truth has set them free. ...

If you can't prove a negative , how can you experience a negative? You can not experience it --Nonsense. Millions of married men experience no sex. Well, that should give you some encouragement. Watch how they prove it, then you can prove there is no god, instead of basing your belief on faith. ...

Not really. Scientists are basically "faithless" in terms of what they "believe" of science. Someone comes along who can prove that ether doesn't exist, they switch their fundamental understandings.Quote Science and technology is great and wonderful. The problem arises when some scientists take what they know and extrapolate it into saying, " this just happened by fortuitous chance, no god necessary". That conclusion is purely a faith based construct. Let the scientists thrive and prosper, but they should call their faith based conclusions for what they are, a religious expression of secular humanism. A religion. ...

If God's reality is incompatible with evil realities and we are living in a reality where evil exists then we're not living in God's reality, we're living in an evil spiritual being's reality who was created by God (or another spiritual being who was created by God). I agree, and I will admit that I struggled with that as well. For better or worse, God's creations were originally perfect like Himself, but were given a free will to accept Gods reality or create their own. Evil is our contribution to His perfect plan. God has provided a solution for evil. ...