rynodigsmusic

Yet, your description here implies love is merely an emotion. How about an example that demonstrates how love can be reasonably compared to science as you were attempting to do? I dont think I said love wasnt an emotion, I said it was more than an emotion. We have the emotion of love to experience love. God works in us through our feelings, emotions, minds, hearts. What I said was that science couldnt explain the connection. What I believe is not what you believe, remember? I believe there is a connection, something that makes a connection with us, not just our own little emotions because we are just emotional people. There is a connection, life, love, heart, mind, earth...something beyond emotions is connecting it all. Please understand, that I cant show this to you, I cant explain it the way you would understand it. I am nothing, im not wise or smart, im just inspired by the grace of God that I found in Jesus. When the love of Jesus comes into the heart, its in the flow of that love that transforms ones mind. I believe Im trying to say that love couldnt be compared to science, that it is greater and always will be. I said science is limited and love is not. Forgive me, I have to now go back and see what I wrote. I am far from perfect. "We didn't start the fire"

Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science? Science will never be greater than love. Did you even read that link? That poor girl died for the sole reason that her parents thought just the way you do. Go ahead, explain to us how they did the right thing. Show us how what they did was an expression of "love". Just as the taste of apples have nothing to do with yellow, how does this have anything to do with love? Meaning, how do you conclude that I think that way just because I said science will never be greater than love. You can have faith in things besides love and truth. These times are getting so bad, they are going to get much worse, and because of things like this happening, many people will begin to hate God and not the spirit of evil which uses deceptions just like this. These people believed their faith to be greater than what it was. Deception. What deception are you talking about? Like you, they put faith in Jesus. Like you, they read the Gospel. And like you, they believed that faith was more important than science. If you somehow feel they are different from you, you'll have to be more specific in what that difference is. One characteristic of the fruit of the spirit is humbleness. Only God knows those who have great faith. If I walk around believing myself to have great faith, then I walk around with pride and i dont even know it. Look.... "20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven" If a man has great faith, he will not put God to the test like that. God is just and full of compassion. He gives us a spirit of discernment between what is right and what is wrong. Humans, are easily decieved. The very nature of deception is that you will not know you are being decieved (that is why it is so important to speak the truth from your heart). You sincerly believe you are right when the whole time you are wrong. I dont blame the family, I blame those who led them astray in the faith to the point that it escalated into this. The same thing happened to the followers of jim jones. Most false prophets do not know they are being bred for destruction (all who preach the Gospel should fear this) The "Deicever" as he is called, works within them to accomplish his goal. It is going to get much worse, just look around, you can already see it happening. Spiritual discernment is the only way to discern spiritual warfare. Everything Jesus spoke about in regards to treating each other goes against hurting people phisically, mentally, or spiritually. Not helping them, when you clearly can, is hurting them. Those who put faith in Jesus are not necessarily following him. I never said faith was more important than science. I said "science will never be greater than love" If one has faith but not love, he has nothing at all. I believe that these people may have put more faith in their own faith than in the love and righteousness of God. I believe they were decieved by evil But, how are you going to handle anything worse than this? Is it all going to be Gods fault? Like when natural disasters, and the wickedness of the world actually comes to your doorstep? At what point would you put the blame aside and believe the prophecy? "We didn't start the fire"

Apparently you didn't get my point, as you are still trying to compare love to science. (Am I taller or shorter than you weigh?) Both science and love are limited. They also have different applications. Would you want to cross a bridge designed and built by workers who relied on love, without and understanding of engineering or the underlying science, or a bridge designed by civil engineers and built by professional builders with experience in bridge building? The child from the link a few posts back received plenty of love from her parents. What she needed was the benefit of medical science. Love can only do so much. By the same token, to paraphrase Albert Einstein, gravity is not responsible for two people falling in love. If you wanted to claim that love is the fundamental emotion, that would, perhaps, be a defendable assertion. But love is just that, an emotion. If whatever you're trying to communicate about is more than an emotion, you would be better off using the correct terminology for that whatever, instead of redefining love. That way it would make more sense. By not using generally understood definitions of words, your words lose the value you want them to have, since your audience won't understand what exactly you're talking about. Im sorry, I strongly disagree with your limit of love reply. I believe we all can benefit from one another, whether your a scientist or a farmer. I will eat the harvest of wheat just as I will take medicine or surgery from a doctor. Did you know that Luke (One of the Gospel writers) was a Physician? Usually it is the love of something that keeps ones desire alive. If your desire is knowledge and science then you are following your desire....Jesus spoke about why you may have a hard time understanding loves power. "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children" I understand your point and I already told you that I dont believe love is purely an emotion. I believe it is spirit, the underlying nature of all that is created. I believe when you gaze into the sunset over the ocean and a beauty is felt within, that both what is felt within AND what is being gazed upon are connected. Whether or not science can tell me what i am feeling and what I am looking at doesnt explain the connection. "We didn't start the fire"

"We didn't start the fire"

Just as the taste of apples have nothing to do with yellow … That was my point. One can't compare the flavor of a fruit to a color. Nor can one compare a process (science) to an emotion (love). They are both non-sensical comparisons. I got your point if you hadnt noticed!! Its just that I never thought of love as only an emotion, I believe it is greater than that and indeed greater than science. Staying alive is great right? But it means nothing without love. Science is limited (as you said it doenst require faith) Love is not limited. The house can perish, but the love it held lives forever. "We didn't start the fire"

Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science? Science will never be greater than love. Did you even read that link? That poor girl died for the sole reason that her parents thought just the way you do. Go ahead, explain to us how they did the right thing. Show us how what they did was an expression of "love". Just as the taste of apples have nothing to do with yellow, how does this have anything to do with love? Meaning, how do you conclude that I think that way just because I said science will never be greater than love. You can have faith in things besides love and truth. These times are getting so bad, they are going to get much worse, and because of things like this happening, many people will begin to hate God and not the spirit of evil which uses deceptions just like this. These people believed their faith to be greater than what it was. Deception. "We didn't start the fire"

"We didn't start the fire"

Some are. Case in point. Isn't it just wonderful those of you who hold faith higher than science? Science will never be greater than love. "We didn't start the fire"

Of course the story of Jesus has influenced people over the years. You seem to be forgetting though, that it has influenced quit a few of them to do evil things. Is this evidence that Jesus was evil? You are speaking of the crusades?? They were not Christians at all. Just because someone does something in the name of someone else, does not mean that they know the person. Oh, and the Gospel says the exact same thing....Its the essence of the hypocrite. Jesus is the truth, so if we dont speak the truth, then the truth never knew us. 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' "We didn't start the fire"

Of course you understand that I am on my guard with you right? God will do what he wants, and I fear his power and pray for mercy, but I fear more leading others astray and being used as the one who decieves witout knowing it. That is why I follow Jesus and speak the truth in humility. If this happens then so be it, if you are a prophetic voice, then so be it. But if for some reason you missed something in the "interpretation" and it doesnt happen, what do you think will happen to those who heard this? It just seems like it is a very dangerous thing you are doing. I would only say what God plainly told me to say and predict that way, I dont think I would rely on my interpretations and predict based on them. Warning and Predicting are two different things. Jesus told us that there will be many false prophets who will appear and decieve many. I know that the world is going to get so bad and that because of that the love of most will grow cold, and the anti christ will reveal himself, and we (Christians) will be handed over and put to death, and many will follow the new religion of the anti christ with a seal of the mark of the beast 666. And I dont doubt the asteroid prediction, However... What am I to believe? Someone predicts something in the name of God (Daniels prophecy is God) and if it doesnt happen, he is a false prophet? By the way the bibles prophecies are "predicted", and this has happened several times (false predictions) man, not God, has decieved many and led them to either leave the faith or ignore it altogether. Fear God, repent, embrace Jesus and love one another, and whether the end comes in our time or not, you will be with Jesus in eternity. Jesus said, Do not worry, dont let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid...such things must happen, but the end is still to come. "We didn't start the fire"

Well, what does YOUR god have to say for himself (which excludes the Bible, since that, with all its contradictions, was written by men). The evidence that Thor exists is exactly the same as the evidence your god exists - zero. Are you serious about this? Jesus is the only reason I have anything from God at all. I know you guys doubt his earthly existance, but the influence you cant doubt as it is all around, changing peoples lives for the better, making believers out of all those who hear and understand, and you do know why right? Love. No one, not even Thor can compete with the love of God that is in Jesus. Jesus can soften the hardest of criminals, the most prideful and hate-filled of man. Grace is Gods love for us not only in spite of the things we have done, but because of them. I am sure you may not believe it, but Gods power goes beyond your understanding, it is more than possible that you will find the love of Jesus one day, a day when you need it the most, when you think after all that I have done and said, theres no way he would still want me. Come to God like that my freind, and I promise you he will reveal himself. Let me ask you a question, "What right do you have to be against Jesus?" He loves you more than you could even imagine, though people spit on him and beat him and persecute him, he loves and loves and loves, he loves those who hate him most, that is the power behind grace. What a load of RUBBISH. You start with an unproven assumption, and then use that assumption to try to prove its own truth. That, my friend, is the most transparent circular reasoning. How is it an uproven assumption? Is it not true that Jesus has an influence on people whether he was proven or not? Consider this, that most of the New Testament was written to express the message of the Gospel, not to merely testify to his existance but what he existed for. "We didn't start the fire"

If a god did exist I don't see why it should be any more likely to be nice to us and want to tell us what to do than be apathetic or evil to us. Me neither. I have no idea why God would still want any of us. Maybe somebody who wasnt as dark and dirty as I was yeah, but definitely not me. When I saw the truth of how bad I really was (like when an alchoholic realizes he has a problem) I thought for sure I had gone too far. It is in the truth that God reveals the grace in Jesus through. Repentance is merely speaking the truth with all your heart and confessing to God everything that is in your heart. Grace is what is recieved when you ask Jesus to cover your sins. Life is the gift of that grace. Dont you know that if one is guilty that he doesnt want to acknowledge that? Its called denial and it is very strong. Truth is the only thing that can get us passed denial. "We didn't start the fire"

I doubt this will persuade the faithful... -Did you ever wonder why that is? Or is it believed that those who have faith are non-listening, non-searching, fools? Being faithful to anything is not a bad thing and if that faith is genuine (like love for your wife), nothing will get in the way. Faith is a gift of love. If your love is strong, your faith will be strong, or if you let in a stronger love, that love will allow your love to grow with it, therefore, your faith will be that much stronger. It is possible to betray what you love, but it is definitely not desired. Its no different with those who found the love of God in Jesus. Question for those who think some book is/was dictated from god. How do you choose which out of the conflicting books to place your faith in? -Surely you have actually read the Gospel? It only takes about 3 hrs to read one. It is not the book or even the bible that one finds faith in God by. Its not words or even letters, it is the spirit and it is very powerful. Many people have read the Gospel and not received anything from it, those who did, got something that cannot be taken, and would never desire to be given away. So while, we would not have any idea that Jesus brought the Gospel, had the bible not been written, some thought it was important enough to ensure the life of the scriptures even in the face of persecution, imprisonment, and death. Isnt that slightly curious to you? Had the Gospel not literally changed lives and had the power it does, it would not have survived. It would have been debated (very similar to these fourms) and dismissed in many ways until ultimately it would have just been put in a library somewhere. The point is that the Gospel is inspired by Gods spirit, it is living and full of life and love. It is life and love that one puts their faith in, not a book. I relate to my reality not by what God is but by what he is _NOT_. I am not God so I make an effort to limit my use of the word "SHOULD". -I am curious to know why you believe those who live by faith do not live in reality? The more I read these posts, the more I see that many believe we have faith in a makebelieve fantasy God and we are all just out of our minds. The truth is that you dont know whether he is real or not, so why would you be so faithful to him not being real? A man who lives by the truth would approach Gods existance openly both ways because he is humble enough to know he didnt bring himself into this world. There should be either a we dont know (or have any proof) type person, or a faithful person who does know. Really, there shouldnt be anyone who just blatently knows he doesnt exist. Those who find faith have been convinced, that doesnt necessarily mean they are foolish. PULL! jumpin_Jan Dangerous toys are fun, but ya could get hurt -- Vash The Stampede "We didn't start the fire"

This is a very profound response. I believe this is the essence of self control. Im at the end of my shift, but I want to write more tomorrow. My thoughts have been going this way for the past few months and your response is very helpful..Thank you "We didn't start the fire"

Hold on, this is not what I asked. Please answer how many hours you spent trying to convince yourself Santa Claus does not exist? Then we could discuss what seems to be another round of Christianity bullshit of how Christians are more accountable, have higher morale and are holier-than-thou in general.

I completely missed your point here.

I would change a lot. First, I'd need to understand its relationship to me.

Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different.

If you knew God existed, what would you change? Why would you need proof of his non-existance? You aparently already have the proof he doesnt exist right? People who seek God seek something greater than themselves and they do it for a reason. Healing, answers, refuge, love...I mean the list goes on and on. But what do people seek when trying to convince themselves he isnt real? Alot of atheist and non-believers are very scientific and extremely imaginative, they like to discuss the fascinating topics of eternity, time and space for their own understanding. Everyone is on thier own path and searching for whatever theyre searching for. You responded to my quote earlier, "it is wise to keep an open heart in regards to the existance of God", then I saw some error in what you were saying on the Christians' behalf when you responded to maadmax. At that point your no longer having a private conversation with someone, it is public and open to scrutiny, especially when someone sees error in your representation. If I miss someones intent, it is becuase I was not really listening to what they were saying, that is entirely my fault and I will try to fix the problem, I would hope others would do the same, but that doesnt always happen, and I am stuck writing stuff like this. "We didn't start the fire"

Then how it could be proof of the God's existense (see the original post)? I could understand how it could prove it if you receive something - but how could it prove anything if you just give? After all, an atheist and a Christian are giving in the same way, it doesn't look different. A lot. So what? Your Jesus said that if you have two shirts, give away one - so basically if you have more than one shirt, you did not give to poor enough, no matter how good Christian you think you are. You will never be able to give enough. A funny thing also is that Christians give to poor because their Jesus said so, and they have to do it if they want to be saved. Atheists, however, do it because they just think it's right thing to do, and do not expect to be "saved" for doing that. The problem is, where is the proof? I could also claim that anyone who didn't get me $100 will scream in agony after death. Your claim is no different. Well, you are not Jesus. If you did just 1% of what Jesus allegerly did, nobody would ask you to do anything. I'm sorry, my friend, you completely missed the point of discussion. We are not talking about what you should or should not do. We are talking about existence of the God. Why did you change the intent of what I said and then cover it up by saying that I missed your intent? I did not miss your intent, I answered your questions where I saw error. Personally i think you need to go back and read your own post, then read what I wrote, then read what you wrote...I will do the same, becasue what you said here is very confusing to me. "We didn't start the fire"

Well, what does YOUR god have to say for himself (which excludes the Bible, since that, with all its contradictions, was written by men). The evidence that Thor exists is exactly the same as the evidence your god exists - zero. Are you serious about this? Jesus is the only reason I have anything from God at all. I know you guys doubt his earthly existance, but the influence you cant doubt as it is all around, changing peoples lives for the better, making believers out of all those who hear and understand, and you do know why right? Love. No one, not even Thor can compete with the love of God that is in Jesus. Jesus can soften the hardest of criminals, the most prideful and hate-filled of man. Grace is Gods love for us not only in spite of the things we have done, but because of them. I am sure you may not believe it, but Gods power goes beyond your understanding, it is more than possible that you will find the love of Jesus one day, a day when you need it the most, when you think after all that I have done and said, theres no way he would still want me. Come to God like that my freind, and I promise you he will reveal himself. Let me ask you a question, "What right do you have to be against Jesus?" He loves you more than you could even imagine, though people spit on him and beat him and persecute him, he loves and loves and loves, he loves those who hate him most, that is the power behind grace. "We didn't start the fire"

"We didn't start the fire"

I personally know several Christians (some of them even being ministers for their whole life) who died in painful death. I personally know more than one Christian family which is poor, and needs some basic stuff. I also suspect that at least some of those who died at 9/11 were failthful Christians, while non-Christian Osama Bin Laden who didn't die (and probably doesn't suffer either) lives just fine. There are of course more examples where Christians are in need, suffer meaninglessly or just die in a wrong way. They all believe in God, and therefore - according to you - it should produce good works of great value, over and over again, for each of them. So why do they suffer? Why the object of their faith failed the believers?

I don’t know what you mean by that question. Science is a process that is repeatable/reproducible, open/public, and not subjective relating to the physical/natural world to determine causal relations. The process of experimental science generates both explanations (“thoughts”) and new questions (“thoughts”); scientists tend to be very comfortable with uncertainty, even actively demanding measures of uncertainty (as opposed to imprecision or inaccuracy). What do you mean by “eliminate thoughts”? Or do you mean eliminate doubt? VR/Marg I have a huge smile on my face right now. The way you talk is just so uniquely incredible, I have no doubt that your intelligence is "off the chart" and I am in no way patronizing you. Its just that I have read many of your posts and replys and sometimes I just start feeling so stupid, I cant explain it...and I absolutely love your forum name!!! But anyway...its important that you understand and believe that my question was about as sincere as they get. I have thoughts that I do not want. They dont come all the time, but they make "the me I want to be" very uncomfortable and they disturb my inner peace. Until Jesus I was almost destroyed by them. Without grace, I would still be enslaved, thinking that I was just disturbed, confused, or lost. God basically said, I know you better than you know yourself, these thoughts are not what you want, but your desires make you entertain them, I forgive you and I love you. Those are very powerful words to someone who is suffering in the evasive pain of the soul. I believe I am talking about what is the foundation of temptation. What does science say about temptation? I find that through meditation and prayer I can quell them. Some of course will say just give in, do what you want, but I dont want to do that. Dont be overly concerned, I am abnormally honest with my feelings, I try to speak the truth especially if it is humiliating. So yes, the question is what do you think about temptation, and how can you stop it? "We didn't start the fire"

The universe is, by its very nature, eternal. Time exists within the universe, not the other way aroundQuote We have a very limited understanding of eternity. Time cant exist without space, nor can space exist without time... The question is whether life exists indepenantly of the body, or even better, could it? The most powerful, most indescribable, evading, and miraculous thing on the earth cannot be bottled or even seen. Without life, our perception of time and space wouldnt even exist. It is revealed through love that there is a life independant of just being alive, with perceptions that see everything good, pure, and beautiful. Just as we are born into the first, we must be born into the second. The first life exists only in the flesh and will disappear with the flesh, the second (if it can be percieved as possible) exists in spirit ( invisible energy), where faith, hope, and love lead us. Why, if when we are so enlightened by a change of perception that seems to be independant of the first life, is it so hard to believe that there are more changes of perception? Perhaps just as invisible, but just as real, also existing within time and space and being revealed in moments that are bred into an eternal canvas? The very nature of a revelation or insight is that it was completely invisible to us before, but through a change of perception (with or without evidence), recieved in the heart, became visible, powerful, and life changing. Is it so hard to believe that our perceptions could change of eternal life, from being completely invisible, to being visible? This is what faith that is genuine does. Im talking about tapping into the actual energy or power of life and learning from that perception. When we find a new perception, the old one dies and we become born again into the new. Jesus said the same thing, but hid it in parables. It seems to me that love is inherant to all of us who were given life. It seems to me that love is actually the energy of life and that to live without it is the energy of death (or to be without life). Loves engery can only be recieved if it is believed, we can only find that "perception" if we die to the old one. That is, that which was born innocent, became guilty due to the lack of belief, therefore began the search for love, (which we all do, because it is the very energy in our being) only when we become innocent again (repent) can we begin to believe in loves power and find the engery within it. When we have a perception of guilt, innocence is not seen, only sought, but when we are set free from that guilt, our perception changes and we become innocent again, which is the foundational energy behind love. Jesus says all this in parables and Isaiah prophesied 800yrs before that there would be a human sacrafice and that he would be called a guilt offering. Guilt is evasive, we dont ever want to acknowledge it, therefore it remains hidden, it is hidden even more in those who believe themselves to not be guilty and it is only revealed through the truth. Jesus hid all this stuff in his message, to hear the secrets, his credibility as the Messiah (the teacher) must be revealed. Just as no one can reveal thier insight to others, no one can reveal Jesus to others. We can only guide and speak. "39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind." 40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?" 41Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." "Unless you change and become like little children, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of Heaven" "Heaven does not come with your close observation, becasue the kingdom of Heaven is within you" "I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds" "The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." "We didn't start the fire"