rynodigsmusic

This definition still makes zero sense. To you yes It implies that as long as one does not feel guilty about an action, that action was not sinful. Furthermore, if one stops feeling guilty about an action, that action ceases to be sinful. That is exactly right. That is why Jesus exposes us all as sinners... 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. 23He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'[c] Rational people do not intentionally do anything they consider to be wrong. I consider myself a rational person and I have done many things I considered to be wrong. Even still, if saying that makes me irrational, then so be it, I would rather be a man of truth, than a man of rationale. There is always some justification to make the action the correct action, whether that assessment ends up being accurate or not. I have no doubt that Hitler felt his actions were justified, just as the Pope feels his actions are justified. I'm sure Nixon felt his actions were justified, just as Ghandi felt his actions were justified. Every intentional action is correct from the perspective from which it is made. I absolutely agree with you on this. "We didn't start the fire"

Its much deeper than that. Understanding why we are here isnt the pursuit of my spiritual path, its getting the most out of life that is. I also find it a bit funny that one is not considered a free thinker if hes found to be a spiritual man, it is actually quite the opposite. I read his words a little differently: that free thinkers may not find their need(s) for spirituality satisified through organized, dogmatic, traditional religious institutions and structures. I would pose a few counter-examples to [tbrown]'s generalization, although they may be exceptions rather than the rule: Dorothy Day -- one of her most famous quotes I suspect you may like: "The greatest challenge of the day is: how to bring about a revolution of the heart, a revolution which has to start with each one of us?" -- & Peter Maurin (founders of Catholic Worker Movement) and Archbishop Oscar Romero. VR/Marg I read his post several times before I wrote the reply. To me it sounded as if he belives people just make up spirituality so that they can be comfortable in the lack of true knowledge that comes through "free thought" (as it is defined by man). The problem with this (if this is his point) is that it is "understood" that those who find truth in the spirit have not searched "as hard" as those who continue to look for it outside of the spirit. For example: Say you just ordered your first rig. You are so excited. Your rig comes and you are elated for awhile, but somehow the satisfaction in that begins to dull eventually. Until years later, the rig you were so happy over is desperately trying to get sold. The worldly man says, no worries, Ill just buy another rig with the money I get and that satisfaction will come back. The spiritual man recognizes that what he really enjoyed wasnt necessarily the rig, but the excitement and happiness it brought...so...he says how do I keep that excitement and happiness without relying on things in this world? (and the spiritual path begins), its not about creating, but finding. When a man recognizes and truly understands that the search was never for the things in this world, but for things that are not seen, the mind is free and open to search in places it wasnt looking before...freer than it ever had been before. That is why I said what I said. Many people do not believe this, therefore, it will sound absolutely ridiculous, thats fine, but it is hardly worth calling it lacking of free thought or some desperate attempt at hope. It is about finding real truth. "We didn't start the fire"

Yes. I have. It's full of bigotry, misogyny, genocide and immoral behavior. It/they are the source of the beginning of my atheism. Wow. It is amazing to me that you got that from Jesus. "We didn't start the fire"

Once again, you're incorrect. How right of you to call someone else incorrect becasue you believe you have the only definition of free thought. And next time you clip something out of my quote, please try and get the entire thing. "We didn't start the fire"

You'd better recheck your good book on that point. Can one commit a guilt? clever, but you are beginning to show me more and more that you havent read the Gospel, and you definitely havent understood it...here... Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven Judging someone by our laws and judging someone in your heart are different. You can condemn someone else of something you are yourself guilty of, by our law, but not by Gods. Our law doesnt care about the heart, Gods does. Our law is not spiritual and doesnt show even a fraction of the mercy that Gods does...and you cant pay off God. "We didn't start the fire"

Let's say you have been selected for a jury. Would you be willing to judge someone's actions? * * * * * You previously said: The Gospel is the judge, and it says that we are all guilty and that "such things must happen". and We carry judgment in the heart, it is sin the likes of all sin that darkens the heart and takes us further away from innocence and truth. Thus, one could conclude from your assertions that the authors of the gospels committed sin by judging certain actions and behaviors to be wrong or sinful. Why base your life on sinful (by your standards) literature? Why would you want to follow the gospels if they take you "further away from innocence and truth"? Im sorry, this is going to go around and around...it will never stop. Sin is guilt we keep in the heart, it is doing something we know we shouldnt do, but we do it anyway...This is in regards to righteousness, but it seems as if you want to continue relating what is spiritual to what is not, and this cant be done. Judging someone for jury duty is not the same as judging someone from your heart. In any case, I am sure there have been many situations of hypocrisy with jury, judge, and the people who are on trial. "We didn't start the fire"

Kind of hard to get rid of all that "sinful" judgment and still maintain a criminal justice system. Or do you make some kind of exception for that? If someone is guilty of something, they are guilty. The criminal justice system is of the world and it has been around for a very long time, that is after all what allowed Jesus to be crucified. What I am telling you is of the spirit and you cannot understand things of the spirit while peering through the lens of the world, becasue all you see is what is in front of you. Very Christian of you to avoid answering my question. Let's make it simple. Is the criminal justice system, which does exactly what you say is bad (judging people), acceptable to you or not? It is not my job to judge anyone. If someone is guilty of something, then they are guilty. Our criminal justice system is far from perfect in its judgments and can be completely overrun with money, politics and the media. Is it acceptable how? Does it punish those who break its laws, yes, do I always agree with its descisons, NO. But the criminal justice system has NOTHING to do with guilt we carry in our hearts. That was the original direction of the conversation. If you want to have a thread on whether or not the criminal justice system is acceptable to believers and non believers alike, then start one, we are talking about guilt, sin, and judgment as it relates to a life in the spirit. "We didn't start the fire"

Kind of hard to get rid of all that "sinful" judgment and still maintain a criminal justice system. Or do you make some kind of exception for that? If someone is guilty of something, they are guilty. The criminal justice system is of the world and it has been around for a very long time, that is after all what allowed Jesus to be crucified. What I am telling you is of the spirit and you cannot understand things of the spirit while peering through the lens of the world, becasue all you see is what is in front of you. "We didn't start the fire"

SPIRITUALITY is as deep a human need as food and reproducing. We need to try to understand WHY we are here. And since we're not all super educated free thinkers, the natural tendency is to create religious structures and beliefsQuote Its much deeper than that. Understanding why we are here isnt the pursuit of my spiritual path, its getting the most out of life that is. I also find it a bit funny that one is not considered a free thinker if hes found to be a spiritual man, it is actually quite the opposite. "We didn't start the fire"

You sound like Jesus speaking to the hypocrites, of course with a few minor differences. I hope you are aware that your frustration can build into anger and even rage, and you can become the very people you are speaking against. I dont understand why it is so hard for people to believe in evil...of course they say it is just an "abstract" concept, but it is a powerful one wouldnt you say? Look at the deception. Here, you sincerely believe you are right and good, but your righteousness is calling for the termination of God. Which by the is exactly what the anti christ is going to do. That passion you carry just needs a strong leader to ignite it, I would just be aware of it. Have you even read the Gospel before? "We didn't start the fire"

Perhaps you should define judgement precisely, because I don't believe in sin. Let's not change the subject just yet. Believe it or not, Ego is on the same plane as judgement. We judge others to be lesser than us because our ego defends that judgement. I have to admit, it is sort of difficult to define judgement precisely. You dont believe in sin, thats ok, but you do believe in guilt right? Thats really all sin is, according to the bible. Remorse is only found in a pure and true heart. Those who reject remorse and follow the path of shamelessness and guiltlessness will only find themselves burying the guilt more and more until it is an unseen stain in the heart, which blackens it and hardens it, preventing the joy of love to enter. Asking for forgiveness and believing you are forgiven are two different things entirely. If I had to try and define judgment I would say its the nature of holding someone else guilty for something. "We didn't start the fire"

You dont have to believe in sin to judge someone. Do you think you are guilty of judging others? Yes or no? Sure. There are a few posters on this site that I am constantly judging to be morons. That doesn't mean I think they're doing anything wrong; it just means I don't believe they're on the preferred side of the intelligence mean. I've judged some singers to be tone deaf. I've judged some well meaning roommates to be appalling cooks (and others to be excellent cooks). Heck, I even helped judge a Physics Olympics on a couple different occasions. That's not the same kind of judgement as those who judge others to be living their lives in such a way that they are damned to Hell. Im not talking about the condemnation of hell or judging events, im talking about judgment. We carry judgment in the heart, it is sin the likes of all sin that darkens the heart and takes us further away from innocence and truth. Unless of course you dont believe in sin, then it is just a word that has nothing to do with the condition of the heart. What do you think about the ego? "We didn't start the fire"

Those who do not believe in the concept of sin do not typically judge others for sins. Of those who do believe in sin, some do judge others. You dont have to believe in sin to judge someone. Do you think you are guilty of judging others? Yes or no? "We didn't start the fire"

When you said: The Gospel is the judge, and it says that we are all guilty and that "such things must happen". You just love scrutiny dont you? If we are ALL guilty of sin then what gives us the right to judge one another? This is what the Gospel says. You do understand what I am saying right? Do you think we are guilty of judging others? Just a yes or no first, then we can discuss it further if you like. "We didn't start the fire"

The Gospels are books written by men other than Christ. It would seem that those authors have no right to judge, either. Ask and Ye shall receive. Thank you. "We didn't start the fire"

You give me far too much credit. I simply made an observation. Your right, I am mis-reading you completely. Believe it or not, your motive for engaging me is similar to my motive for engaging others. from what I have gathered, you dont like me representing Jesus as the only way to salvation, and I dont like others misrepresenting him. All I know is the Gospel, its all I care about and all I am. Its meditation, prayer, practice, teaching, learning, ect...My representation is in humbleness and humility, truth and grace; its not difinitive, but its not wreckless or carefree either. I also, dont like how people mis represent the Gospel. Grace is the power behind the Gospel, not judgement and punsihment. How do you think I feel when "big shots" say things in the name of Jesus, but neglect to show grace, the very message of the Gospel? They have no right to judge others. Saying that New Orleans was destroyed becasue of homosexuality is judging; saying that Hitler was sent to punish the jews is judging the jews. The Gospel is the judge, and it says that we are all guilty and that "such things must happen". How can someone who is just as guilty point the finger at someone else? I have said it many times now, what these evangelical preachers are doing is very dangerous. Lawrocket is saying the same thing, but I am afraid (I may be misunderstanding) he is teaching others to use that as an excuse not to teach the Gospel, that is why I responded. I would have just PM'd him, but he put this on a public forum and I believe he is slightly mistaken on his understanding of Job. Now, it seems we will talk it out amongst everyone and hopefully, God will guide us into the truth. I am sorry, however for mis reading you...I am far from perfect. By the way, how do you make that line go through the word like that? "We didn't start the fire"

Where did you get the 3 from? All I said was there are children of the devil. The devil is the Father of Lies, that is what Jesus calls him. It is funny to me that alot of these people are self proclaimed geniuses. The ego is one of the greatest lies we have, that is why Jesus says to deny ourself. "We didn't start the fire"

Then would please stop trying? (Upon further reflection, the First Amendment gives you the right to cause people to despise your religion.) I realize you mean well, but it proselytizing like yours that turns people away from Christianity. I saw what I believe to be errors in the representaion of the Word and I engaged and confronted them, I dont believe I proselytized anything. I am aware that many will reject the message and blame that rejection on the man, I am afraid you have made me that man. "We didn't start the fire"

I know bush is supported by many evangelicals. I am not an evangelical. For those interested in knowing why not... As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said. 40But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, "Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!" 41"Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, 42but only one thing is needed.[f] Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her." "We didn't start the fire"

Are you a prophet? Has God told you why He has done things? if the answer is yes, let me know. >>>>Of course not. I seek to live in accordance with the Gospel. If God has not specifically told you why He has done certain things, then follow God's advice - SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE. Learn from the mistakes of Eliphaz and his "two friends." >>>>One of us is not discerning properly. Jobs' freinds were no more righteous than Job, but they considered Jobs' "punishment" as being for just what you said (God punishing evil), however, that is not what the book of Job is about, because we know that God does punish, as he punished sin on the cross and bore the punishment himself. What Job is about is that God did these things to Job (who was considered righteous in Gods sight), therefore, "it rains on the righteous and the unrighteous". God does what God wants, of course no one knows why. I agree with you about the dangers of speaking for God when he has not spoken...I believe thats what I have been saying. THat's the Truth - you don't know. Nobody knows. And self-anointing oneself as a prophet for the sake of making oneself righteous is ALSO a sin, for it is an offense to God to say you've got his ear when you do not. >>>>From you rationale, it sounds as if your believing there should be no teachers of the Gospel? Since speaking the truth of the Gospel, in your eyes, is speaking for God? I dont think anyone who follows Jesus should/would call himself a prophet. Again, you and I agree completely on the misrepresentaion of Gods voice. I may be misunderstanding you. And, yes. Unless otherwise verified in the good book or confirmed, any self0described prophet is false. I.e., would you consider john Smith to be a prophet? If not, why not? John Smith has a helluva lot more credibility as a prophet than do Fallwell and Robertson. >>>>No, I dont consider Joseph Smith a prophet. And as I have been saying all along, I approach all "prophets" with extreme caution. Give me a humble and loving freind who follows Jesus, give me a servant of the servants, that is where God is speaking now a days, Like mother Teresa. What about Muhammed. A few hundred million seem to think that he was also a prophet. Do you believe he was a prophet? Why or why not? >>>>Yes, I believe Muhammed is a prophet. I dont believe he is the final prophet and I certainly dont believe he supercedes Jesus. Because, this goes back to Genesis 16 when God told Hagar that her son, Ishmael, will be against his brothers (descendants of Issac). Muhammed is a descendant of Ishmael, Jesus is a Jewish descendant of Issac. However, anyone who executes judgement on others in the name of God will be subject to the same judgement. The Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name? Doesn't that go back to what I've been saying? >>>>I dont understand how teaching the Gospel and learning from it is misusing his name? How about calling Jesus God or a God? Shouldn't you have no other Lords before God? Yet there is Jesus, right? >>>>Are you saying that Jesus was just a man? If so, you are in danger of falling into the same trap the Pharisees and saducees did. I cant reveal who Jesus is to you. And, Jesus told us the number one commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, and strength. Jesus (God) brought us back to God with his own blood (his love for us) You shall make no idol, yet there is a crucifix, and the Sistine Chapel itself is loaded with graven images, ain't it? >>>>Honoring God is not the same as worshiping an idol. However, I agree with you, just becasue you honor God with things or carrying a cross, or building something ect..., does not make you righteous in the heart. I leave it up to God to make that judgement, as for me, I will rest on repentance and the blood of Jesus for my sins. These are the inherent problems I see with those who proselytize about "God's will." THey don't know shit. They CANNOT know shit. How do we know this? Because He Himself said so. >>>>Agreed. Jesus tells us that the will of God is to believe in the one he sent, not to prophecy about things God hasnt clearly spoken about. I understand your frustration with modern day evangelicals, I have many of the same frustrations, but God is speaking, has been speaking, and will continue to speak whether we speak or not...Look... Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!" 40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out." All I have said is that I am open to his voice and I fear his power. "We didn't start the fire"

The Gospel says that there are children of the devil. If Hiltler was not one, then I dont know who is. I havent fallen into the rhetoric of the average evangelical. I follow the Gospel, not man. Talking about such things is not inline with the Gospel. The end will come irregardless of these coversations, which seem to disturb the greater sought peace in the spirit. I think you mean the Gospel was written over 1500 yrs ago...the Bible itself is older. "We didn't start the fire"

If thier sin was explaining Gods reasons, then all the prophets before and after Job would have been sinning from the beginning. It is not right to say that God is punishing someone for what they did, but I also cannot say that he isnt either. One is a judgement against someone, the other is being open to the truth (whether it is the truth or not), we shloud all fear Gods power if we are going to trust in his love. "We didn't start the fire"

Jeremiah has 8 letters, Nebuchadnezzar has 14 letters. 8+14 is 22. When Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor in 1933, there were 22 generals in the German Army. Coincidence? I think not!Quote Youll believe this before youll believe Jesus is the one true path? Thats a little strange to me, but hey, we're all just "bat-shit" insane right? "We didn't start the fire"

In the Old Testament, the Book of Job talks about those who seek to explain why God does things. Recall that Jobs friends kept telling Job their theories about why Job's God is making him suffer.Quote In the beginning of Job, God allowed satan to have his way with Job, but he wasnt allowed to take his life. The book of Job was summed up by Jesus, "It rains on the Righteous and the Unrighteous". Jobs' freinds were judging Job (this is what you were saying). No one on earth has the right to judge. Even Jesus didnt judge, who is himself God. The point is that Jesus already taught us the book of Job and the lessons learned. We all judge, it is learning how not to judge that gets us closer to the spirit. As far as the prophecy, warning is not the same as predicting; I agree with you, interpretations and predictions are dangerous. A prophet HEARS CLEARLY the voice of God. "which I have not commanded him to speak" "We didn't start the fire"

Quoteguilt - fear - mass insanity.... 3 cheers for christianity.Quote Are you kidding me? you just described a human being in general, and a man without guilt or fear is a man without heart. "We didn't start the fire"