Lucky...

The how do you account for higher wages and safer conditions in union states? Not to mention that these union states are usually blue states, like Washington. But you say lower wages and less safe conditions is smarter, huh? OK If you had a clue, the recent Boeing strike was induced by Boeing so they wouldn't have to pay late fees on delivery. But these obnoxious union demands, if not made, end up in more company profits and a lower standard of living for people. Do you think you can ask management to give or you have to get them over a barrel?

Again, the diddy rule? Nothing scientific? WHat makes American blue collars more intelligent than European blue collars? In WE they get between 4 and 9 weeks vacation per year - fed law. In WE their workweek is sometimes 35 hrs per week. They get gov paid medical and if tehy strike, they almost always win. Yea, they're stupid

You went from 4 words to 1 word; what next? < a 5-letter word? And you didn't respond to your silly claim that I was abusive in PM, did you? Uh huh, your silence is loud. Your not even addressing the issue or the data, just posting so you can be the last. Do you still assert that Obama was elcted because he is black, as you asserted formerly? Here's this again: And you still haven't touched my data, you deleted, you conceeded, then you recanted that, now you claim to be right, yet you aren't touchinmg the data which shows you're wrong. Don't worry about me, go refuet the data from the census bureau I posted. Of course you know it's right and you're wrong, which is why you deleted your ridiculous assertion.

Your not even addressing the issue or the data, just posting so you can be the last. Do you still assert that Obama was elcted because he is black, as you asserted formerly? Here's this again: And you still haven't touched my data, you deleted, you conceeded, then you recanted that, now you claim to be right, yet you aren't touchinmg the data which shows you're wrong. Don't worry about me, go refuet the data from the census bureau I posted. Of course you know it's right and you're wrong, which is why you deleted your ridiculous assertion.

And you still haven't touched my data, you deleted, you conceeded, then you recanted that, now you claim to be right, yet you aren't touchinmg the data which shows you're wrong. Don't worry about me, go refuet the data from the census bureau I posted. Of course you know it's right and you're wrong, which is why you deleted your ridiculous assertion.

What the fuck's the matter with you? Wow, dude, you just made my day! I'm glad YOU had the balls to ask that. I'd probably get tossed again for another couple weeks. Fuckin' GREAT!!! Oh goody, you're my hero :-{}

What the fuck's the matter with you? I guess I just don't love Jebus Christ as my load in savio and think GWB was the greatest pres of all time......THAT'S WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH ME.

My father was blue collar. My brother is blue collar. My sister is blue collar. I was blue collar for most of my career. Are you calling all of us stupid? I'm blue collar, as a generalization American blue collar workers are stupid as compared to their Western Eurpean counterparts in that they think busting unioins brings higher wages. Actually fighting for the other side not bright. Now, within that there are some people who get it and are not stupid, but the evidence is there; American unionization is dropping in teh private sector and so are wages/benefits: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2007/05/it.html

Here are the 2 PM's I sent: Game, set, match. Admitting your wrong, which quite obviously you are, takes a responsibility attitude. Running as you are is typical neo-conservatism. You know Obama was elcted for reasons other than race and if you don't, just read my post in the thread you ran from: 2M blacks were called out due to Obama running, that isn't the difference. You'll still carry your prejudice that Obama was eleccted due to race and then call me an idiot for being prejudiced. I've fully dispelled the notion that Obama was elected by all the blacks coming out of the woodwork. And You fucked up, just own it, it's easier that way. So show me the PA's. There are none, once again you are running from an errant assertion you made. It's easier to just admit, and of course you did that, but now you recant. Uh huh. Yea, we all believe you. Gee, I don't know how I would draw that and the post you deleted was even more about how Obama was elected by the black populous due to Obama being black. Of course we can't retrieve that, you quickly deleted that. FACT...that he was elected President of the United States because of his race. Never in recent presidential elections had the African-American sector voted so overwhelmingly in favor of one presidential candidate and there have been a few who promised them more than Obama did. If the black vote had been the same as it has been in recent elections then Obama would have been watching a Republican take the oath that day. Yea, you didn't pin yourself down that Obama was elected due to his race....no And now you're going to plagiarize my posting style; just hang with me, son, I'll show you how to win arguments. Really? What if a defendant is found guilty of a lesser included, he would be found not guilty of the major crime, yet guilty of a lesser crime, so it is a partial win. Then on top of that you get a chance to mitigate the sentence and the prosecution to aggravate it, so there is another gray area. Furthermore, I didn't say you could be partially convicted of 1 crime; show me where I stated that. You can't, that's why neo-cons don't cite reference. What if we are 90% out of it? Are we in it as much as today? Recovery come sin degrees. Are we in it in a realistic sense? Sure, but we are better on the way to recovery as compared to when your guy was in office. All I can say is go ask yer diddy and eat yer meat and pertaturs.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to link to the NBER announcement that the recession is officially over. Perhaps you would be so kind as to pass the grey poupon - your elitist style of syntax doesn't invoke one to think you're brilliant. I'll be kind enough to repost part of the post above yours: I opined; we are officially out of Bush's Great Recession, but are still in it from a realistic perspecctive. Of course that's what teh NBR does, they factor that in, so they say we are not. Strict economists say we're out but recovery needs to further. I stated NBR rather than NBER, if you read it I think you know what I was saying. Also, they aren't the authority, it's one version. Again, strict economists say that we're out, NBER factors in reality and we are not, but it isn't 0 or 100%, there are degrees of recovery and the fact that 2 indicators are waaaaay + is an upbeat sign.

Agreed. Any time a company is offering you short term money, you know their bean counters have figured out it's making them far more in the long run. Yea, they dangle a fish most blue collar types are stupid enough to bite. My dad was a union steward and in the early 80's they offered a 3-tier pay scale, but told the journeymen they wouldn't be touching their pay. My dad said, sure they won't, they'll get monkeys in here and train them to do our jobs and do away with us.. Of course teh dumbshit American worker followed management and they did as my dad said they would and worked the top guys out. The American blue collar worker is stupid and worse yet, they hide behind the guise of tough, red-blooded American Republican. These upper R's must be laughing thier asses off.

Quit your PA's, you blockeed me from PM's, and we were civilized, so if you need to PA then unblock it or quit it here. The black would have gone minimally Republican either way; what are you talking about? WHat was the black vote in 04? You act as if blacks generally vote R, which has to be incorrect. I'm must be wrong due to my ability to read and understand English. You wrote: FACT...that he was elected President of the United States because of his race. .......If the black vote had been the same as it has been in recent elections then Obama would have been watching a Republican take the oath that day. Hmmm, ok, explain yourself. The vote from the black sector as opposed to what it would have been with a white Dem candidate WAS MINIMAL. The boost he got COLLECTIVELY from the black vote, Hispanic vote (who had felt disinfranchised from Bush) and the youth vote were, again, COLLECTIVELY significant. You act as though the differential black vote alone, as compared to previous years of black votes, was significant; it wasn't. You try to tally the entire black vote and say there, see XX Millions of black votes, that make sthe deal. Remember, most of those votes historically go to white Dem candidates anyway, so the differential isn't huge. The the 2M add-on, but that alone was insignificant. No, I said we are officially out of a recession, but..... Again, I have spoken with many binary thinkers, been to many trials and you can ask yes or no questions, but you can also straighten them out on redirect. You = bianry thinker, meaning it's yes or no. Me = liberal/progrssive thinker, meaning I believe there is a huge gray area. So we will come to point where one day we're in it and things are totally fucked, then the next day the sun will be shining and we will be out? That's why unemp goes from 10% to 9.5%, to 9%, etc, etc, etc... This is the variable to which I speak and you cannot comprehend. I'm ok with that tho. I opined; we are officially out of Bush's Great Recession, but are still in it from a realistic perspecctive. Of course that's what teh NBR does, they factor that in, so they say we are not. Strict economists say we're out but recovery needs to further.

And would they have voted Dem if Obama hadn't been the candidate? If it was Hillary, would virtually all have gone McCain? Please don't try to feed us that shit sandwich. Most likely they voted D on 04 and would have voted D in 08 regardless of the candidate, which kills your point. In order to make your point you need to establish that blacks generally vote R, but since Obama was the D candidate they went that way. You just haven't even started at that. If "if's" an "buts" were candy and nuts it would be Christmas all years long. If the AZ Cardinals didn't give up that TDown last SB they would be the champs. Your ifs are a joke. How do African Americans usually vote? Dem, right? SO there si no change as to their voting patterns with this election, just the addition of 2M more; your guys still lost by 10M. Yes, but I base it on data, not what my diddy down at the bayou might have said while we were fishin' for crawdads, talkin' bout his diddy and his diddy's diddy. Are you able to form a well-informed opinion based upon data and otehr relevant info? My opinion, as stated several times, is that by economic indicators, which lead "realistic" indicators, is that the 2 first indicators reveal we are technically out, but that realistically we are not, as unemp, the last cog, is still high. I'm sorry if you only work in yes or no, I don't work that way. It's obvious how you feel. You think he was elected ONLY because he is black and you think the economy isn't doing well considering the mess he inherited. I haven't seen 1 positive thing you've said about him; am I wrong? Are you praising him? I know, tax cuts my friends fixes everyhting

No, it's right here, the 08 election brought out 2M more blacks. You did assert that it was race that gave Obama the election. Belgian: Since you see fit to accuse anybody who says anything against Obama as being a racist don't forget the fact...yes, FACT...that he was elected President of the United States because of his race. That was what you said, are you now retracting? You've already conceeded in a diff thread, are you now waking up? If so, make your point clearly, not just some 12% and then 88% - there, that proves it. MAKE YOUR CASE OR STICK WITH YOUR CONCESSION. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>So, tell us, are we still in a recession? You never did give a yes or no answer except in your thread title, and then did a lot of backpedaling and tried to weasel out of it. You wish I was backpeddaling, that way it would relieve your running. As I've clearly stated several times, we are officially out of a recession by way of GDP, but the real recession as per teh NBR of course we're not, as unemp is 10%. Until we get around 5%, we're still in it, hence the "but." I'm really sorry for binary thinkers, we are or we're not, but to your dismay, logic isn't yes or no in most cases, it's in shades. So most indicators have us out of the recession, but we aren't in a practical respect. Sorry of that doesn't work for you, and I'm sorry Obama isn't failing to fix your guy's mess, but it is what it is and it's WAAAAAAAAAY ahead of schedule. Here's teh data again: According to the Federal Election Commission those PEW numbers are a bit wrong. http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2008/2008presgeresults.pdf Barack Obama (D) 69,498,215 John McCain (R) 59,948,240 Diff of 9,522,083 Here's the US census be\ureau: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/socdemo/voting/publications/p20/2008/tables.html There are 26,528,000 total African Americans 18 and over as of last Nov. 16,133,000 voted. That's close to the 15.75 the pew reported. From the same site, they state: http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/voting/013995.html About 131 million people reported voting in the 2008 U.S. presidential election, an increase of 5 million from 2004, according to a new table package released today by the U.S. Census Bureau. The increase included about 2 million more black voters, 2 million more Hispanic voters and about 600,000 more Asian voters, while the number of non-Hispanic white voters remained statistically unchanged. So the PEWS argument is BS since there were 2 million additional black voters that, let's face it, showed up to vote for Obama and wouldn't have shown up if it were 2 pasty white guys. 2 million, do we have to go further with PEWS lame argument? Obama won by 9.5M votes. Now I think it's fair to say that between the Dem white vote which appears to be unchanged, the 2M black vote, the 2M new Hisp vote, the previous Hisp votes who flipped and the new surge of young voters COLLECTIVELY made the difference, but not the black vote alone at 2M with a 9.5M victory. They, being the Hillary primary voters, mostly voted for Obama in the genral. If you posted my entire passge it would read: You guys are just delluded in thinking that the US in large still loves massive military, classism, massive debt, world-hate, Corporatism and all the lovely gifts the R's give us.....please don't change. YOU GUYS are the ones, usually conservatives, who think we all love the mess GWB and Reagan left us. But I do repsect your reference and constructive approach. PEW is a respectable ref, they are just all FU'd on this one. EDITED TO ADD: this is the citation/report you roiginally posted: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1209/racial-ethnic-voters-presidential-election

Yea, and how does the fed budget get figured? Where does it start?.....oh yea, the president submits a proposition to the House, the House drafts something similar or a veto fight will ensue. Come again? Jan 07 to Jan 09 the senate was a push at 49-49-2, with Lieberman being one of the 2. The VP breask many ties with the senate if tehre any. The Dems have not owned the congress since Jan 07. As for the Reagan Years, the senate was R controlled from Jan 81 to Jan 87, so once again you are wrong. The best recent recovery years of the congress was from Jan 89 - Jan 95 where 2 tax increases were were cast from the all Dem-controlled congress and signed by GHWB and Clinton, this brought the top brkt from 28% to almost 40% and the recovery was set and realized under Clinton. Speaking of Clinton and his Republican congress, he threatened to shut down the mess if they didn't act right and even vetoed a min wage increase as it was packed with tax cuts for the rich, so Clinton enjoyed enormous years in spite of the R congress. Of course you aren't a Repub, you just make a living defending them. WRONG, we didn't have a Dem Congress in Jan 07, we had a Dem House and a tied senate with the VP breaking ties if needed. As I've said before, after HC we'll see a mass exodus from the ME. What did Nixon do? Most of the killings were ramped up then. But the Dems were teh warmongers up to the 70's, that's for sure. Now the R's have assumed that idiotic role. Look at Eisenhower, got us out of Korea and warned us of the Military Industrial Complex which we have all ignored and that is teh crux of our mess.

Sure, as long as you quit running

It's Sodium Silicate: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=atGyvjeWv3wg

Here's a variant of the C4C I wholly back: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-astor/trading-in-republicans-vi_b_249904.html

Are you gonna keep running from this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3715365;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Come on, you made an assertion that Obama's election was due from the black vote, I was responding and then you yanked your post, so I posted my response anyway. Come on, don't you want to defend yourself? Actually, no. for the same reasons I deleted my post. The discussion had strayed, IMO, too far from the original thread and had quickly become circular. Not to mention you never answered the question as to why you automatically attached a racial connotation to the OP. The topic had strayed????? WTF?????? The topic was and is: How the hell could this happen? The OP gave us several photos of weird auto accidents and then a final pic of the swearing in of Obama. It wasn't a thread about weird auto accidents, that was the set-up and a very good one at that. The thread was really: How the hell could Obama get elected. I hope I haven't lost you yet. The thread quickly went to why Obama was elected and what the interpretation was that the OP suggested. Qaude refered to Bush blunders, I infered the OP was aimed at Obama being black and elected. The thread starter responded with: Black Man???? Bullshit, A Marxist, Communist, Yes...Black? He is only half black! You can throw that crutch away.... And then you stated: Since you see fit to accuse anybody who says anything against Obama as being a racist don't forget the fact...yes, FACT...that he was elected President of the United States because of his race. And then you posted the PEW site that made the claim that Obama was elected from the black vote, so then I replied with a couple sites like the census bureau to disprove that, all the while, you deleted yours, I assume you realized it was BS. NOW YOU JUST WANT TO RUN FROM IT RATHER THAN ADMIT THE TRUTH: OBAMA WASN'T ELECTED DUE TO HIS COLOR, BUT FOR HIS PARTY AFFILIATION, IDEALS AND DESIRE FROM MOST AMMERICANS 69M TO 59M. >>>>>>>>>>>>>The discussion had strayed, Strayed from why Obama was elected to why Obama was elected? I see your point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>IMO, too far from the original thread You mean original post. >>>>>>>>>>>>>had quickly become circular. It didn't have time to become circular. It was on its 17th post when you ran away and like 5 or 6 posts from 3 diff posters were dedicated to the issue of race, how could it get circular yet? Yours was teh first post to deal with data, that is, until you deleted it. The thread is only 19 posts long, even with me posting again to bring you back in. >>>>>>>>>>>>Not to mention you never answered the question as to why you automatically attached a racial connotation to the OP. That was my interpretation of most people who object to him. Was it ever asked? After rereading the thread, the question was never asked, but I just answerd it. TIME TO MAN-UP AND ADMIT YOU PULLED YOUR POST DUE TO YOU DECIDING IT WAS INCORRECT AND THAT OBAMA WASN'T ELECTED DUE TO HIS COLOR.

Are you gonna keep running from this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3715365;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Come on, you made an assertion that Obama's election was due from the black vote, I was responding and then you yanked your post, so I posted my response anyway. Come on, don't you want to defend yourself?

Of course they are...they don't carry Obama's water so they MUST be biased, right? They have derogatory pictures of Dems, obviously nutty cult sites, fine, but reference, hardly. What's laughable is that you think you can slide this shit past me and others. Yeah, you're right - I should have gone with a geocities site. #1 did I ever use a geocities site? #2 whomevr may have used one, does geocities have a bias? Again, I don't ever recall using one, post where I have or strike up your beef with another person who may have. Until then, no more nutty bias sites like the one you posted.

As do you and everbody else. Most praise MLK but dont talk about how he cheated on his wife. In my book that make's him a POS! No question's asked. Hell that wife cheating SOB got his own holiday That explains why the righties impeached Clinton. Of course what explains not even the slightest discipline for Lott and gay BF, Larry "wide stance" Craig shopping for cock in an airport shitter, or a bevy of other Republicans who have been so-called immoral? Exactly, which is why you've lost some of your fundamental base. No, Clinton was impeached for perjury, not adultery - sorry to bust your bubble. Actually perjury and obstruction, but it was based upon a sex-based investigation. Just as your boy LIbby and his perjury/obstruction that your favorite guy commuted him for, that started with an investigation over Valerie Plame CIA agent and the disclosure of her identity. Even tho both were for the same charges, the origin is what drove it. Whereas Lott and gay BF, Larry "wide stance" Craig shopping for cock in an airport shitter draws no investigation; that's my point.

Of course they are...they don't carry Obama's water so they MUST be biased, right? They have derogatory pictures of Dems, obviously nutty cult sites, fine, but reference, hardly. What's laughable is that you think you can slide this shit past me and others.

As do you and everbody else. Most praise MLK but dont talk about how he cheated on his wife. In my book that make's him a POS! No question's asked. Hell that wife cheating SOB got his own holiday That explains why the righties impeached Clinton. Of course what explains not even the slightest discipline for Lott and gay BF, Larry "wide stance" Craig shopping for cock in an airport shitter, or a bevy of other Republicans who have been so-called immoral? Exactly, which is why you've lost some of your fundamental base.

That's clear by the way you create and support your arguments. Nice selective editing, Lucky...which is why you're not worth the effort to debate. By your standard, no one is, you just blurt out whatever works, you rarely cite any source and when you do it's some extremist RW site.