vortexring

Can I ask how you think you would react, if, on carrying your concealed handgun, I suddenly appeared in your face, pointing a pistol into it, and demanded all your money? Wouldn't do you much good would it? Or would you shoot me when I legged it? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Elton John is releasing a tribute song for Saddam, called: Dangle in the wind. Terrible, yes. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Quote"Thus, the only proper course of action is to ensure that the law-abiding have guns, in order to defend themselves from the tactical firearms units." Ah, I knew I shoudn't have stuck my head over the parapet... (note to self, don't post at 5am..) Was only kidding! Besides, speaking of parapets, I'm doing a runner. Debating with John's like trying to convince my old man he's drunk as he's peering at me through an empty whisky bottle!

You're wrong. I have never said that only the law-abiding will be armed. I have specifically recognized that the bad guys will always get guns, no matter what. Therefore, the only correct course of action is to allow the law-abiding to have them for self-defense. I don't know how you could have missed that from my messages, unless you just weren't paying attention. It would also be pie-in-the-sky to wish that no one would drive drunk. But I'm not going to give up my self-defense car air-bag just because of a fairy tale wish. Disarming victims is a solution for nothing, and a recipe for disaster. It seems then John, you see it necessary for everyone to be armed then. Of course, preferably not the criminals, but thats never going to happen is it? Unarmed criminals? Fine, every healthy, sane, law abiding citizen carries a gun. This will achieve more harm than good. Think of the simplicity for criminals to arm themselves. They'd all be armed now. Gun crime would go through the roof. All in the name of self defence? Efforts, genuine effective methods of disarming the criminals need to be made. There's plenty of crime where I live, indeed, there's a murderer cutting about strangling prostitutes. Many people fear he may well move onto women who are not prostitutes, as has happened in similiar situations in the past. It would never enter my head that my wife should be armed with a pistol as a means of strangulation prevention. Because there are other methods. Guns are not the be all and end all of self defence. Evolve!

John; the word 'perhaps' was used in a suggestive context. The good guys may need to be armed to protect themselves from the bad guys in the Wild Wild West but 'unfortunately' that was around 100+ years ago. Evolution. Get with the program - your being left behind. Your mention of pie in the sky vapourisers and magic wands seem quite an effective way to make me look niave, and rather silly; but unfortunately for you John, you've missed my point completely. Whether deliberatly on not, it does make you come across rather rude and impertinant. So why not go have another read. Your neanderthal anology is out of context. Where did I mention citizens being incapable of self defence - with criminals armed, as a norm? Please, I expected better replies from yourself. Your not only sounding like a stuck record, but sounding rather rude, refusing to acknowledge points of view properly, whilst being literally blinkered to your own point of view, incapable of any objectivity. Sometimes it's healthy to think outside the boxes in which we place ourselves. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Hahahaha! "Taxi for Speedracer!!" 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

I'll be celebrating Christmas in Eastern Europe on the 24th! Long live Jezisek! Vesele vanoce vam vsem!

Good man! What unit? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Join the Army

All I've got to say is what a load of nonsense. If anyone is responsible for all the horrors we commit upon ourselves it is us! 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Perhaps the statement should be changed to: "Thus, the only proper course of action is to ensure that the law-abiding have guns, in order to defend themselves from the tactical firearms units." 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Come over to the UK soon, we'll go and give Davy a visit, he can brief us up. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

And I like your tenacity! Good for you. Now, get a haircut and a proper job.

I only ask, because he knows the reasons why all the rubble and debris were shipped off and sold to the Chinese. Obviously because the material was tainted with sulphour. He's also aware 9 of the so called suicide bombers are actually alive!! AND! He appeared on news night with Sky news claiming why were their no witnesses to the aircraft crashing into the Pentagon! And...... 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Here Skinny, are you really David Shayler, ex MI5, currently on a UK tour, assuring the British public the US Government are responsible for 9/11? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

People sometimes believe only what they wish to believe. Mental!

JohnRich's quote: "Thus, the only proper course of action is to ensure that the law-abiding have guns, in order to defend themselves from the criminals." Quote ends. John, I'm looking at what you've said in regards to ensuring only law abiding citizens are armed. Should it be necessary to mention the words; Idealism? Fairy tales? Pie in the sky? Perhaps yes. I won't even begin to insult anyones intelligence by explaining why. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

I've been wondering if perhaps there may well be a common failing in the minds of conspiracy 'believers.' Something they have in common. Some reduced area of their mental function. Like in the vicinity of attention seeking? But then, why are the theories so fascinating!!!

John - nothing is impossible. Basics mate. Of course criminals will get weapons if they wish. Nothings impossible is it? Perhaps a reduction in the actual weapon availability will help achieve a reduction in there availability,hence a reduction in innocent lives being destroyed. You say pro gun people are practical realists, which to an extent, in this day and age, I agree. You also mention anti gun people as being idealist pie in the sky fairy tale believers.... I'd say your points speak of narrow mindedness themselves. Whilst I can recognise your pro gun points - sincerely - I feel you observe my points as being rather idealistic hogwash. Fine. In todays climate you are indeed correct. To a certain extent though. My main point is that society is better off without firearms. This is not a topic for debate. It's a fact. Being pro gun delays this. Being blind to the bigger picture delays this. Seeing this fact as fairy tales, again, delays this. Society will always evolve. Generally, for the better. Can't you see your delaying this? Nothing is impossible. Moral responsibility. Like perhaps driving a 'greener' car. Putting the wine bottles in the bottle bank. Screwing the nut regarding the refuse Nazi's. Know what I'm getting at? Building a better future for our children? If you think it's all idealistic fairy tales and one individuals efforts won't make a difference - not so fine. Then your in the wrong. I don't call people narrow minded because I disagree with them. I'm open to the case they may well be far more open minded than myself on this issue. But I feel your being narrow minded to what is, essentially, a simple point; society benefits from stricter arms control. We're no longer living in the dark ages, are we? Let's move on. Because we have to. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Even if there was CONCLUSIVE, BOMB PROOF, 100% DEFINITE UTTER PROOF that the US Government brought down the towers, people would still think, 'Yeah, sure, ya conspiracy fruit!' I'm pissed off - David Shayler, ex British MI5, has been touring the UK gobbing off about 9/11 being the responsibilty of the US Government. Really. I seen him on Sky news a fortnight ago airing his views. Very interesting indeed. However, when he was visiting my town I was out the country. What a pisser. That would have been some good entertainment I believe.

>We're evolved when lethal items are readily available and everyone chooses to not use them that way. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.< I'm with you on this one.

Hiya Randy - hope your well mate. "M16A2 with a nice scope?Very Fine. I cannot ever imagine an international society without weapons - it goes against human nature. At the moment. It's our nature that needs to change. Also in response to rehmwa's earlier edit, I'm not for a Government taking them away from citizens, more an understanding that we're really better off without them. I know you'd be upset with this Randy, especially regarding all the time and effort you've spent on your AR -15 Unlucky mate - now gimme it! It's going in the crusher 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Yeah, I do see your points mate, but I'm of the belief that we can no longer trust the common person with lethal weapons. This in itself proliferates their availabilty, not just to the dickheads mentioned, but their availabilty to cause harm and death. Perhaps some elements of ownership really are best controlled. Nobody takes a rig then wipes out primary school children, do they. Nobody commits genocide in their cars. So whilst I'm aware of your fear of a 1984 George Orwell society - the objective look and understanding of the bigger picture doesn't quite take you down this road. Certainly not in regard to gun control. We need to move on. Evolve. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Well, what I really mean is that simply advocating gun ownership doesn't morally address the issue of the necessity to own one, as in, for self defence. Twin bore for rabbits on the farm? Fine. Remington .870 magnum? Not so fine. Air rifle for vermin control? Fine. M16A2? Not so fine. The problem will always be their misuse. From kids shooting old men playing bowls, to the multi-million dollar arms trade, to gangsta rapper type dickheads, to your next door neighbour who unfortunately went a bit mental and murdered 16 children at the local primary school. Society is better off without them. As if that's going to happen anytime soon. But it would be rather nice if it did, what? Hence being pro gun prevents this. I'm aware the reality of my point actually happening is beyond unlikely. But this is part of the problem itself. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Yeah, I have to agree on there being a lack of belief in the big man. Then again, look at me, referring to him flippantly. With your referral to something being 'bigger' than one self this made me think of Islam. As far as I know it literally means 'submission to god.' Man, I could really spin off on a tangent now, but despite their faults, no wonder they see us as the Great Satan. Infidels. (Anyway, this is for another day - an argument on Muslim and Christian merits and failings - I'm wondering if Muslims may well come out ahead.....) People feel they don't have anybody to answer to, do they? It's like being pro or anti gun for example. Both sides have plausable and logical elements to their side of the debate. You'll never enforce responsible use of weapons. Why have them then? Because it's ones right? This doesn't wash for me - society is better off without them. Ultimately peoples belief in the necessity of their ownership should be addressed. But I feel the pro guns people refuse to see the bigger and long term picture of society being better off without them. I think being pro gun delays this. This, and many other aspects of a better society will either happen or I believe we're doomed as a species. Like heading out towards armageddon anybody? We need to realise a more mature and responsible attitude towards ourselves - with ourselves being society as a whole. What can you do to better it? Continue to be narrow minded? Believe only what suits you to believe? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'