vortexring

Right - it's too late now, I'm off. I'll get back to you tomorrow - Slaughterhouse 5 was a good read though.... 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

True. In fact, it has been demonstrated. Communists removed religion, and had a very strict and orderly society in many ways. Yeah, until it fucking disintegtrated. edit: sorry, thought you were talking about USSR rather than communism in general. Would you rather live in a communist country or a christian based country, such as where you live now? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Hey, relax. I've no intention of making you or anyone else believe in God. I'm only expressing an opinion I have on the matter - I've certainly got my doubts too. But I feel atheism is wrong, and that people need some form of moral guidance. Read this: "An eminent historian described religion as a "faculty of human nature". That the perversion of this faculty has contributed to much of the confusion in society and the conflicts in and between individuals can hardly be denied. But neither can any fair-minded observer discount the preponderating influence exerted by religion on the vital expressions of civilization. Furthermore, its indispensability to social order has repeatedly been demonstrated by its direct effect on laws and morality." Now that just about sums up what I feel on the matter. And it also explains what I mean by the chaos, far better than I'm able to articulate. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Common fucking sense. I'm an atheist, but I don't require an imaginary friend to tell me it's wrong to kill, rape or steal. My own inner dialogue does that. That dialogue seems to have been very quiet in the Catholic church as it systematically allowed the sexual abuse of children, and subsequently threatened the victims and protected the pedophile priests. That Christian moral code seemed a bit lacking there don't you think ? Should have used my nice pagan rede, remember ? Be it harm none, do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law If we all lived by this, we'd have no need for your corrupt religious "moral" code and associated supernatural babble. Sure, it's a reasonable code. Unfortunately a lot of people don't apply their common fucking sense as they should, so I still maintain there's a need for moral guidance. Don't you take moral guidance from your pagan statement? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

No it's not. That is, as stated, bollocks. Utter, complete, unadulterated, bullshit. Well, seeing as I'm not an expert on religion and you are, why not take some time to explain your reasoning then, instead of being rude? edit: or are you still upset when I said this the other day: "Your attitude hit a nerve with me. I'm no member of the God Squad, and despite having a few doubts myself...there'll be a few people behind me at the Pearly gates I reckon, as I'm trying to bluff my way in, what hit a nerve is this: The amount of people who put an intellectual slant to their (dis)belief. It's as if they're so smart they know better and the believers are, of course, below their superiority. It's arrogance. Like the people at the opposite end of the spectrum, neither of you actually know. So like all arrogant people, you can all just fuck off. If you wish to express your opinions to gain knowledge, fine. To take the higher ground over something you don't actually know, but just have an over-inflated opinion of............. That surely means you're gay."

People require moral guidance. Where have they got it from in the past? Where do they get it from now? Seems the old source hasn't been so popular in recent years. What would you recommend? 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

That's just bollocks. Just about all the laws ever passed are not even mentioned in the bible. And the ones that are would have you stoning homosexuals and adulterers to death. Sorry, but morals have got fuck all to do with religion. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-morality/#TweCen Have a read of this. It studies a bit of what you said in your last sentance. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Is it? Western culture is built on christian morals; even if you're not christian - if you take away christianity, you take away our Western morals, and you breed chaos. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

For clarity I've put your answers to my questions in italics whilst my reply to your answers I've made bold. My point remains; why are things so shit these days? Why are social values in decline? I believe that social values historically swing from one extreme to the other. Decline is a perception based on a set of expectations, which are often debatable as real and true values. A nonspecific answer if ever there was one. They are in decline. (If you are speaking of British society and its decline, that happened when it allowed its empire to collapse due mostly to its fiscal irresponsibility. No money to replace its outdated wooden ships as the rest of the naval powers moved to iron and steel. From that point on Britain was a reflection of divergent outside interests with old internal power centers attempting to hold sway at the cost of "traditional" values. Not a decline - just a shift.) The Empire collapsed after WWII - is it relevant? How does this answer such issues I'm trying to address? Why is my country facing demoralisation? Please explain what you mean - specifically. Try a dictionary? Why are so many consumer items far more expensive in my country, in comparison to other EU countries? Simple, protectionist taxation to start and now that the taxation is no longer protectionist because the industry has actually moved, it has become taxation without a purpose other than to carry on the programs it once benefited. You welcome the bulk of the third world and ask nothing from them other than to stand in line for their checks and the smartest of the influx use the system to enrich themselves and give little if anything back. (Again, a shift, not a decline.) But in your answer, surely this is a decline in moral values - a key issue to my rant. Why are our hospitals and transport systems becoming so much worse? Be happy that you have them. Not only that, but I'll bet your hospitals are capable of far more now than 20-40 years ago due to advancements in science. People are living longer and longer than they ever have. (Maybe that's not such a good thing) I am happy to have them. I'm unhappy at how they're operated, and how much they cost - and how much money is wasted. Also, what's medical advancement if there is a very real chance of contracting MRSA whilst under going invasive surgery? Why is my country experiencing a greater breakdown in marriages, with more single parents struggling to bringup their children? You see many women realizing they don't have to be stuck in shit marriages anymore. They are able to get jobs themselves - as opposed to 20-40 years ago. Women are not completely reliant on men nowadays. So the increased divorce rates is only through women realizing they no longer have to remain in shit marriages? Only partly true. Why is there less repect for authority? Respect has never been all that important, fear has, and people do not fear authority as they had. Respect is very important. You cannot have respect through fear. This isn't a particularly good answer. Why do so many political leaders lead so badly and set such bad examples? We allow them to. However, political leaders of the past have just as many fuck-ups, only the media was not right there to capture everything and report it as they do now. Fair enough. An area requiring change. Lack of leadership, erosion of responsibility, exposure to deceit and the breakdown of honesty and integrity by politicians and business leaders is another key issue. Why do we have more celebrity cults? It is the nature of celebrity, it has never been any different be it an artist of some sort, a politician, or a religion. Again, we just hear about them now - the media is a wonderful thing? I agree - the media are often a cause of problems through ignorant, misleading, dramatized and often; purely dishonest articles. A reflection....? Why are cases of truency increasing? Because there is no fear of reprisal and the whole intent of compulsory education does not exist anymore. Factory workers skilled enough to do their jobs are not necessary on the same level that brought compulsory education and you actually pay people not to work. I agree - again it's a decline in standards. This problem happened when the welfare state stopped being a safety net to temporarily help those in distress and became a life style choice for every chancer and low life. Why are more and more teenagers becoming more feral? You mean like the mother of Christ who birthed the son of man at 15? In the US, the number of teen pregnancies has actually been going down over the past 15-20 years - better birth control. Then why is it rising so fast here? We have the same birth control means - they are easily available? But there is far more to this problem than teenage pregnancies. Why are more and more people taking drugs? Do you mean illegal drugs? Drugs have always been used: alcohol, caffeine, tobacco, pot, cocaine, you name it - it's just that now, some of those are illegal. Marijuana for instance was made illegal in 1970 (in the US). And there has been a push by some to make certain drugs socially unacceptable. Partaking of (these certain) drugs was accepted 20-40 years ago, but no longer. So their use becomes a "problem" now. I mean illegal drugs - being 'illegal' doesn't explain the problems surrounding them, and caused by them. I'd worry more about an entire generation that has drugged their children just to have them not act like children. (ADHD - Ritalin) I worry very much about this. Why do more and more people no longer give a fuck? They don't have to when everything is done for them. "Give me convenience or give me death." Well, you get convenience and loss of care. I agree. It's a shit attitude to have. You don't have that in your country? Egypt, right? I've been there a few times; for work and leisure, and it didn't seem all that wonderful to me. Well, apart from the coral reefs, but they're on their way out too.... I'm from America - just posted here in Egypt for a few years. And it's because of my experience here that I have really learned to appreciate just how good I have it in the States. I'm aware of how good I have things in the UK in comparison to some other countries and places I've been to, other than Egypt: every continent at least twice, excluding Antartica. But this is a non - issue. It isn't answering my questions. Again, I'm sorry you see things as such shit. Maybe you should start using Ecstasy and things will be all better. Haha! Maybe I did - and now it's sent me mad!? Seriously though - this original post started off originally as a bit of a rant - but apart from the ranting side, it's something I'm interested in finding the answers to. So thanks for your input; whether I agree with you or not, it is appreciated. It seems there are so many,many possible answers to all the numerous problems. And I somehow think they're all related too. "One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half." Sir Winston Churchill 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

That's something I'm trying to figure out. Is it a product produced by a dysfunctional society? What makes it worse is that it isn't only young people where such an attitude can be commonly found. A poll conducted from around 3500 people concluded that today's 10 evils were: "The decline of community, individualism, consumerism and greed, a decline of values, the decline of the family, young people as both victims and perpetrators, drugs and alcohol, poverty and inequality, immigration and responses to it, and crime and violence. Among those to blame were big business, religion and the media. 'People are concerned about the way our society has become more individualistic, greedy and selfish, seemingly at a cost to our sense of community,' said the report. 'The focus on greed as an issue reflects concern about the growing gulf between the rich and poor. Connected to all of these issues was the perception that we no longer share a set of common values and that we have lost our "moral compass". 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Yep, and what a splendid decision it was too... The UN wasn't kept out just to 'speed things along' though. It was to save money and face; and through a general 'couldn't give a fuck attitude' over the effect the border would have. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

I didn't think you were 40 - I thought you were in your early 20's. Or d'you reckon I'm 40? 1968 then. Now: My point remains; why are things so shit these days? Why are social values in decline? Why is my country facing demoralisation? Why are so many consumer items far more expensive in my country, in comparison to other EU countries? Why are our hospitals and transport systems becoming so much worse? Why is my country experiencing a greater breakdown in marriages, with more single parents struggling to bringup their children? Why is there less repect for authority? Why do so many political leaders lead so badly and set such bad examples? Why do we have more celebrity cults? Why are cases of truency increasing? Why are more and more teenagers becoming more feral? Why are more and more people taking drugs? Why do more and more people no longer give a fuck? You don't have that in your country? Egypt, right? I've been there a few times; for work and leisure, and it didn't seem all that wonderful to me. Well, apart from the coral reefs, but they're on their way out too.... 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Scroll up to post #91, line 3. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Sure, that's fair enough, although I've generally found racism generally stems from ignorance. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

But what you said arguably stems from the state or fact of being ignorant; lacking in knowledge, learning, information, etc. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Wish the partion had been given a bit more thought in '47. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Ha..ha. My point remains; why are things so shit? Why are social values in decline? Why is my country facing demoralisation? Why are so many consumer items far more expensive in my country, in comparison to other EU countries? Why are our hospitals and transport systems becoming so much worse? Why is my country experiencing a greater breakdown in marriages, with more single parents struggling to bringup their children? Why is there less repect for authority? Why do so many political leaders lead so badly and set such bad examples? Why do we have more celebrity cults? Why are cases of truency increasing? Why are more and more teenagers becoming more feral? Why are more and more people taking drugs? Why do more and more people no longer give a fuck? You don't have that in your country? Egypt, right? I've been there a few times; for work and leisure, and it didn't seem all that wonderful to me. Well, apart from the coral reefs, but they're on their way out too.... 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

You're very right - so many aspects of our life are far better. But I've also found once non-Western people have lived in the West for a while, it isn't quite as good as they expected it to be. Generally it'll still be a better option than going back to where their from, and face starvation, persecution and what have you. So whilst I do recognise your earlier points from the other post by looking at it from this perspective; the downward spiral of my society still remains an issue for me. edit: Concerning racism; it generally stems from ignorance. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

The leap isn't quite such distance, as you seem to imagine, as the two go hand in hand. I was waiting for you to mention times from history which were considered worse than today, but I decided not to pre-empt you and wait. (I expected you to be able to understand my main issue was with a time period within our lives.) The reason I waited is because I figured it was the last defence to your points you'd be able to come up with. But they aren't relevant to my rant as I'm concerned with modern times. So like your earlier replies and answers, you're still very wrong. And you're still very wrong by now dismissing the issue to attitude and perspectative. I wonder what your next answer will be? Are you going to claim things aren't shit whatsoever and I'm in actual fact mistaken? Hope the singings nice in your world.....

In fact; might be more appropriate. I meant 'toadyer' as a slang term for 'told you'. Figured that one would have you scurrying off to the dictionary.

Nonetheless it still provides a moral template whilst your normal Christianity helps and tries to prevent the continual demoralisation we see in Britian today. I have little critiscism for organisations which are geared towards preventing social breakdown. Which are ultimately geared towards bringing about the common good. So it's a bit more than your example of people simply needing a bloke in a hat to tell them simple things are wrong. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Well, fair enough mate, I've certainly had doubts myself. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

I can't understand what you mean in regards to: 'I wish everything worked out the way I wanted/expected it to, but it doesn't. That doesn't make society/humans shit. ' Did I allude to this statement? You've lost me there. But looking at your logic, I don't want old men battered and mugged for a pint of milk, but it happens. I don't want children attacking their teachers, but it happens. I don't want children to become 'adultised' yet it happens. Add in a further few thousand examples as you see fit - they still happen. So whilst such examples don't necessarily make poeple or society shit, the increasing frequency of such incidents indicate our society becoming more immoral, and shit. Even if it's just fucking McDonalds adverts repeating 'I'm lovin' it' again and again. Psychology has it's applications but it doesn't provide the answers. edit: Can psychology explain and answer the reasons for the demoralisation of the Western world? Can it provide answers and explanations of social breakdown? And this breakdown is only going in one direction. So if you want to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la-la-la whilst insisting not all of people or society is shit, then surely people with such apathetic attitudes are part of the reason society is shit. And only getting shitter. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Yeah, but that's where man has been wrong in his application of religion, it doesn't necessarily mean all religion is 'wrong'. Misused, certainly. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

Like the moral template the 10 commandments provide. It's moral guidance whether you're a Christian or not. If it's lack of religion causing society to take a downward turn then what's the primary cause/s? For the record, I think there are far more aspects to societies continual downward trends than religion. But I still believe it's a factor. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'