falxori

you really can't see the difference, can you? you can't see the difference between systematic killing an entire religion, regardless of their nationality or location and a teritorial dispute (although not pretty) between two nations? you really can't see the difference between hurting some civilians in the process of fighting guerilla forces (who use civilans as shields) and killing as many civilans as you can? would you agree that Israel could kill pretty much every palestinian if it wanted to? but it doesn't. can you say the same thing about Hamas? doesn't it try to kill as many civilans as possible? targets Israeli cities with artillery and missiles? and no, you dont need smart bombs to target civilians, when they shoot their rockets into israeli towns they dont care who they hit as long as they hit someone. if anything, Israel's smart bombs make sure targeting the real bad guys is more accurate. but no, i guess you can't see the difference. o "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

ok, so in your view Israel has no right to exist, you would not accept the two state solution and the who country should be handed to the palestinians. funny, I'm sure that's exactly what my family felt when they were driven out of Hebron during the 36-39 riots. they've been living there for centuries, btw. this didnt start at 67, nor at 48. what's that have to do with anything? Israel's right to exist rely on the jewish people's link to this place and you cannot dispute this link. well at least you can be sure they were there before the muslims, right? but yes, if you find me some cananites or Hitties, you may have a point. the difference between us is that I accept the fact that both nations have a claim in this land. It looks like you (and Hamas and Hezbolllah) refuse to accept the Israel has a right to exist just as much (if not more) than a palestinian state. Ori both sides believe they have a right on this small piece of land, and both are right. if you dont accept the fact that it has to be shared, then you don't really want peace. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

do you have a specific date and time where "history" begins? again you consider history from a certain time that suits your views, ignoring everything that happened before that. your point in history is so vague that it isn't clear whether you are talking about 1967 or 1948 (in both, btw, the aggression wasn't started by Israel). but instead of focusing on when it started, lets focus on when/how it ends. if you start at 1967, so we were very close to an agreement in 2000 which would have ended it. but if you're talking about 1948, the only solution that will make you happy is the destruction of Israel, which makes your views very similar to those of Hamas, Hezbollah and your beloved Iranian leadership... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

Let me start by saying that I hope Israel won't have to do it. this is not just Israel's problem but there seems to be a wish that Israel will do it so others won't have to. perhaps not directly. Iran is controlling and directing Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad. all of which are engaged in active warfare with israel and they are one of the main reasons for the failure of the peace process. the PA was overthrown by Hamas in Gaza and lebanon is pretty much controlled by Hezbollah. and to your "aggressor" notes, let me remind you that both have (and still do) launched unprovoked attacks on Israel. so yea, maybe Iran hasn't invade anyone themselves. the cowards use others to do that for them (and ruining their lives while doing so). just for the record, i'm not worried about Iran using nukes against Israel, it will lead to their destruction as well. Their M.O will lead to a nuke going off somewhere without a return address... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

getting and giving just been busy at work, but if you miss me just send me an email, I can always make some time for a good debate... you can't take things out of context. you can't ignore the fact that the buldozed house belongs to a suicide bomber or that a sniper was hiding in it while shooting at farmers across the border. you cant ignore the fact that in the roadblocks, a lot of explosives and terrorists are caught and that when these roadblocks are removed the result is usually a bus or a coffee shot blowing up. I'm not saying that civilians are not suffering (on both sides) but none of these measures are taken just because Israel feels like making the Palestinian lives harder O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

so you accept the possibility of it being an accident? well shields of all sorts are likely to get hurt sometimes. if she chose to jump in front of a working bulldozer, she can only blame herself. since you weren't there, I dont see how you can be so sure. but, does it really matter if she got hurt by debris or by the bulldozer that was working there itself? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

have you ever been inside D9 bulldozer? do you know the "dead areas" from the drivers position? do you know how limited the field of view is in such heavy and heavily armored vehicles? you seem almost too eager to say they had run her over on purpose but again, I wasnt there so I dont know, all I know it makes sooo much sense that she was running around a D9 Bulldozer at work and got hit by it. If someone had wanted to hurt her on purpose, there are much easier ways that chasing her down with a heavily armored bulldozer. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

there is a big difference between being run over by a D9 bulldozer at work and being run over by a D9 bulldozer intentionally. well if the rat keeps trying to bite the hand that is feeding it. and again, the Gaza strip has a pretty open border with Egypt. too bad its mostly used for other kinds of "goods" I don't care how they came to power, I care only about what is their agenda. Hitler came to power by democratic election too. and you know what, if indeed Hamas is the "people's choice" than i feel less bad about the people's suffering. you can't have it both ways. thats the thing, they didnt even try. had the shooting stopped, had the fuel and food terminals not been targetted all the time and STILL Israel would have prevented free flow of people and goods, then you might have had a point. this has nothing to do with the issue at hand. carpet bombing neighbourhoods regardless of whether or not there is terrorist activity there will fall under this definition. not trading with a nation that is in a state of war with you is not. and somewhere in that Geneva convention i believe it was stated that combat units must be clearly marked and that no militaristic operations may take place in civilian environments. if they dont follow this rule they cant complain if civilians get hurt (especially when they are actually targetting civilians Israel controls either what is needed for its security (airspace for example) or what was never settled as part of the agreements (safe passage between Gaza and the west bank). obviously it controls the border crossings between the Gaza strip and Israel mush like any border checkpoint. the Raffah crossing between Gaza and Egypt is not under Israeli control (not that they need it as they smuggle whatever they want across the Egyptian border. o O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

Hamas is the one who proposed the cease fire as mediated through Egypt. question is, is this "cease fire" a first step towards peace or is it just taking a break in order to smuggle more explosives and arms through the Egyptian border. if its a strategic choice, great. if its a tactic move that will allow them to prepare for the next planned round than no thanks. where you there? did you see it happen? or are you making a call that matches your existing views (and please, let skip all of the "unbiased" reports that you have lined up already) even if so, who says Israel has to supply them with anything? Israel does not control Gaza anymore, Hamas does. and you refuse to acknowledge that Israel has left Gaza completely and that the main reason for the crisis in Gaza is the failure of the Palestinians to take matters into their own hands. can you show me the law that says that an country has to provide supplies to another country in a state of war? face it, it is a bit odd that Israel provides supplies to the same entity that launches rockets (targeting civilian towns BTW) and attacks the very same border crossings that are used in order to provide these supplies. and again, Israel does not control Gaza. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

don't mind if I do. Israel IS at the table with the PA and its president Mahmud Abbas but sadly he controls only the west bank since Hamas has taken over the Gaza Strip by force (the election it has won, to the best of my limited understanding of Palestinian politic law) is for the PM, not for the president position which is the official ruller. Hamas has agreed to a long term cease fire if Israel pretty much accepts all of their terms from the get go. although it makes a nice headline of "Hamas wants to talk", its not serious. Israel has pulled out of Gaza completely yet rockets fly out of there daily and still Israel keep supplying Gaza with food and fuel. can you give another example in history where a country kept supplying a declared enemy with a hostile government with supplies? how about the fact that most of the recent terror attacks were targetted against the very same cargo and fuel terminals that are used to transfer these supplies? ANY other country would have just closed the borders and let them manage on their own. they have a pretty long border with egypt too, but they use it mostly to smuggle explosives and guns. just some food for thought... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no problem, it just bugs me when people put words in my mouth. the dispute between the two nations has started long before the holocaust. google the riots of 36-39, the Balfour declaration etc. what the Holocause did was to show that the jewish people really needs to form their own homeland again. I dont want to start the who was here first debate again so i'll just say that both nations have a rightful claim over this land (and a 2000 years claim is no less right than a 300 years claim). when Israel was formed in 1948 there was a division plan formed by the UN. this plan was accepted by the Zionist movement but reject by the local Arabs. they've started a war and lost, causing some of the local arabs to flee (btw, those who stayed became Israeli citizens). so yes when they say the "right of return" they mean the refugees of 1948. what people tend to forget is the jewish refugees from arab countries (close to 800,000 if i remember correctly) that were kicked out from their home countries. there were refugees on both sides and trust me when I tell you that the condition of the jewish arabs refugees in the early years of Israel wasnt that great either. the main difference is that over the years, Israel has managed to help start a new life while the arab countries mostly chose to maintain their current condition and even make it worse (google "black september" in jordan) if/when a palestinian state is formed, most likely around the well accepted 1967 borders, the palestinian refugees can return to the palestinian parts of their home land much like my family will not get to return to its home in Hebron after being kicked out of it in the riots of 1937. if so, then he's nothing more than a terrorist in my eyes and should be dealt with according to the law. the wall and roadblocks are a sad but needed measure in order to stop busses from exploding and school children getting shot like the case that started this thread. let me make it very clear, israel DO NOT just shoot people in the head. civilians are used by the terrorists as human shield. just about a week ago, two terrorists carrying loads of ammunitions were shot and the resulting explosion of their cargo has caused half a family to get killed. now, I'm sure there will be people here that will blame Israel as it has launched the attack which ended up killing civilians but when terrorists are using residential areas to store explosives and back yards to launch rocket attacks, then what would you do? no, the parts beyond the 67 borders (green line) were never "annexed" to Israel and are considered an occupied area by law (although it is part of Historic Israel and is very dear to all Israelis). their status was under military rule until the 90's and the Oslo accords which formed the Palestinian authority. when Arafat chose to reject the camp david agreements (which have resulted in a palestinian state) violence broke out again and no major agreement has been reached since. now, when Hamas has taken over Gaza and rejects all previous agreements too there is no one to really talk to. its a very complex and twisted histort and its hard to fully analyze it here. both sides have made huge mistakes and it doesnt look promising for the near future as the current Palestinian leadership (Hamas) rejects all agreements and Israel's right to exist. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

ok, now you are starting to get on my nerve (which seems to be your goal anyway)... read what i said again, and slower. i said its different, i never said anything about they being less important. you did. but since you asked... then brush up on your history. the Nazis exterminated jews (mostly but not only) in every country they've invaded, had they won the war they would have continued. had they not been stopped in egypt by the english the jewsih population in (what is to become) Israel would have been exterminated as well. as wrong as this statement is, you are taking the words of one person, talking in the heat of the moment after a mass murder terror attack on school children who were shot at point blank. imagine how would you feel in the heat of the moment if it had happened in a school near your home. I don't really know this guy and his views but if he held any authority, its mostly a religious/ceremonial one, not a government one. A Yeshiva is a religious school (college level), where some religious people learn higher level religious studies. Israel has secular colleges, universities, professional schools etc. like any other country. it sounds like in your mind Israel is some kind of a crazy theocracy with nothing but religion. even Iran, which is the best example of an extreme Theocracy has secular life, universities (and pretty good ones too) and mostly sane normal people (too bad they are controlled by fanatics. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

yeap, exactly. Holocaust denial was outlawed in many countries so first of all, its not a jewish/Israeli plot. i'm not even sure Israel has such laws. why? probably to protect the factual history from people who will reduce it to speculations as soon as the last living survivors and the last piece of physical evidence is gone. is it against the "freedom of speech"? I guess so but sometimes freedom of speech is not the most sacred thing. and as for the 1/1000 statement, I have no idea what you are talking about, who said it, what its about or what was the context. but, are their jewish people who think a jewish life is worth more than 1000 arab lives? probably. every nation has its crap and so do we. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

first of all, your religion has nothing to do with your rights as a citizen. the only different is the law that grants citizenship to any jew that wishes (a direct result of the need for a jewish home country after the holocaust), but once a citizen, there is no difference. regarding coverted jews, again, it has nothing to do with citizenship. there might be some difference in the religious laws that might affect things like religious marriage or burial but these are usually things you chose to do if you wish to. converting to judaism is actually pretty complicated since the jewish religion is not a misionary one (unlike Christianity and Islam for example that encourage people to covert). to make it short, there may be some religious practice differences but civil/criminal law is the same (again, like any other democracy i know of) O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

oh man, this is almost too easy. I should just shut up and let your nonsense speak for itselg, but for the small chance that someone might chose to follow your path... ok then, if non-zionists are people who do not "agree" with the holocaust, then you are right, I have nothing BUT contempt. that is very different from your original non-zionist=non-jews very well for the most part yes, Israeli Arabs are equal citizens by law. yeap, exactly the same rights. as defined in Israel decleration of independence and by laws that have followed. yes, and houses and cars and even pets. yes and their votes count in the same way as mine does. if you didnt get the point until now, YES. every Israeli citizen is equal by law, same as any other democracy. does it mean that Arab Israelis always get the same chances in life? no, because even if they are equal by law, you cant change some personal views that some people may have (again, same goes for any other democracy) does it really matter if its 6 million, 8 million or 4 million? sadly there are no exact records, just good estimations. so in the name of "science" everything goes? let me remind you that the Nazi race theory was based on "science" too. survivors are slowly dying, the death camps won't last much longer anyway. the Holocause being a "fact" is what will make sure that the lesson learned will be remembered. didn't you just say that "the Zionist leaders had their country (israel) in the bag" long before the holocaust? good for you. I don't agree with some of Israel's policies and you'll be suprised that most of the Muslims I Know are not extremists at all O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

your obvious lack of knowledge and uderstanding is only shadowed by your outspoken racism. just so you know, there are Muslim Arabs, Christian Arabs and Jewish Arabs much like there are Muslim/Jewish/Christian Americans/British/French etc. who exactly do us "Zionist Israelis" feel contempt for? ok cool, so us Jews get all of your money, where do I sign up? because I think someone forgot to add my name to the list of people who get a free ride... its not more important. but it is different in causes and motivation. if you really want to learn about the difference I would be happy to sit with you and share my thought. learning from that event in history is the most important thing, and not just for Jews. again, its not more important, its just different. and since you've mentioned African slavery, then you are right, the racial aspect is very similar. the only major difference I can think of is that in the case of African slavery slavers viewed the Africans as free work force (like animals) which they wanted to use and didnt care if they die. in the Holocause, the goal was to exterminate an entire race. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

and this is related to the original post how exactly? but since you brought it up, why dont you tell the whole story? http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-leaders-forced-to-cancel-holy-site-visit-in-crucifixes-row-1364298.html so, an INDIVIDUAL person (even if it was a local official, which according to this source, it wasn't) thought it was wrong for them to wear crosses in the Jewish holiest site and made a scene and they've decided to leave. ofcourse this is unacceptable and there was an an official apology by the minister of interior affairs, which they have accepted. don't you think another one is in order? O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no doubt, and I hope Israel will stay a reality. i was just saying that Egypt and Syria don't need Israel's grace in order to exist and that saying the 90% of Israelis are Russians is simply not true. that's all O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

none of the above has anything to do with reality... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

well if the previous owner doesn't want it back... anyway, many would say that these lands were liberated and not occupied but i think we've established that both parties have a claim and the right course of action is dividing the land. all of those issues should be discussed on the negotiation table. in Gaza, there is no one to talk to so Israel pulled out on it on. now, as long as rockets are flying over the border, why should Israel continue to provide goods and fuel to Gaza? they have a pretty long border with egypt too. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I would have suggested Playgirl maybe, but i just remembered Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said there are no Gay people in Iran, and we all know he's always telling the truth... anyway, back to the topic, the fact that the author is jewish doesn't make his claims more or less valid. its his views and he is free the hold them. the beauty of free speech... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

first of all, lets be accurate. the west bank was taken from Jordan and the Gaza strip was taken from Egypt. both don't want any part of it back. Israel has stated and was more than willing to have a settlement with the palestinians, giving them self control in these areas. to "just give it back" sounds like a great idea, only reality prooves otherwise. Israel "just gave away" Gaza, and looks whats happening there. should we do the same in the west bank and get rockets all over the country? O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

ok then, how about the civilian home he is firing from? should he be spared because he is using civilians as shields? international law clearly states that whoever is engaged in war should be clearly marked (uniform) and must not operate from within civilian areas. if that home was used for terroristic activity, i have no problem with that. i'd rather stop the suicide bomber himself but if the only way to get to him is through his family, then so be it. first of all, you are sooo wrong. Hamas did pick up the pace during those years but... in 1993: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehola_Junction_bombing take a look at this list (just seach for "bomb") http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael-3.html and you'll see dozens of bombs that were detonated in israel throughout the years. not that breaking into a high school and shooting students (Maalot, 1974) or hijacking airplanes (70's) is any better than suicide bombings wrong, the reasoning is all that matters. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

from the basic fact that there are two different nations who consider this land their home. for every map you bring, i can bring one that proves the opposite. this land is/was occupied by different people throughout history and unless you set a "date of ownership", none of that matters. the land has to be shared. you must understand, the fact that Israel is willing to give up parts of the land for peace doesnt mean we care less about the land, it means we care more about peace. but whenever we try to give some sort of self rulling to the palestinians, all we get is more violence. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

let me ask you this, a hamas member, in civilian clothes, firing rockets from a civilian back yard is a legitimate target? yes, innocent civilians are getting hurt, but when you make a habbit of using them as shields, its unavoidable. there is a huge difference between a civilian that was targetted and a civilian that wasn't. hold on. you are actually claiming there were no terror attacks against israeli civilians before the incident in Hebron (which is also a terror act in my book) and keep a straight face? the fact that they've mostly used guns and hijacking instead of suicide bombing doesnt matter (maybe its their way of evolution... security, a result of many many drive by shootings and ambushes. there are more areas in the west bank that i'm allowed into then the kinds of roads you are talking about. here's a fresh thought... take a break, try to build your nation and invest in that instead of in violence. take Gaza as an example, i cannot stress enough how much hope we had when Israel has pulled out of gaza. there was no Israeli presence there what so ever. yet, not a few days passed before rocket were flying across the border... trust me when i say this as an Israeli. there is nothing that we want more than to just live in peace. even to the point that we are willing to give up precious lands that we consider our own. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."