falxori

and I have provided you with clear evidence that you are wrong. the creation of israel followed a long dispute over this land when it was decided to divide the land to 2 states. what "started" the violence is not the creation of Israel its the refusal of the local arabs to accept the division plan. 1948 (like 1967) was an important date on the timeline but saying it all began there as if Israel was created out of thin air is simply false. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I can think of several places that this is still the norm. even if you are correct about today, looking back 60-100 years into the past, WWI and WWII pretty much take the lead. but we're going off topic. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

were you alive in 1948? i'm not saying you should ignore it, but why 1948 yes but 1939 no? and because you weren't alive in 70AD, it doesnt matter anymore? sorry, I dont get your logic. I still think you pick the dates that serve your purpose. and remember, i only pulled 70AD as a comeback to your "it all started in 1948" claim. i'm pretty sure the past 100 years weren't less violent than the 1st century. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I didnt twist your words, you were very clear about it. the Jews who came to Israel before/after 1948 came back to their homes and have every right to be here. and yes, I know you don't agree. tough luck. I did answer and I will answer again. Yes there was an injustice done to the local arabs who fled their homes in 1948, much like there was an injustice when my family were kicked out of their home in Hebron in 1936. such are wars. you can't ignore the fact that they started the 1948 war. and again, let me remind you that those who stayed became Israeli citizens. why are you so eaget to fix the injustice of 60 years ago but not the one of 2000 years ago? where do you draw the line? if we wait 1000 years more will the palestinians lose their "right" in your view? 50? 100? 2000 years? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I didnt twist your words, you were very clear about it. the Jews who came to Israel before/after 1948 came back to their homes and have every right to be here. and yes, I know you don't agree. tough luck. I did answer and I will answer again. Yes there was an injustice done to the local arabs who fled their homes in 1948, much like there was an injustice when my family were kicked out of their home in Hebron in 1936. such are wars. you can't ignore the fact that they started the 1948 war. and again, let me remind you that those who stayed became Israeli citizens. why are you so eaget to fix the injustice of 60 years ago but not the one of 2000 years ago? where do you draw the line? if we wait 1000 years more will the palestinians lose their "right" in your view? 50? 100? 2000 years? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

exactly, what matters is the here and now. I wouldn't worry about it too much. all 3 major parties are pretty much the same and will (and have in the past) go for the same deal. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

well they won't be banned anymore... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

well, its nice to see that you are asking instead of just assuming... the kingdom of Israel, existed for a couple of thousands of years and destroyed by the Romans around 70 AD. I meant the Jewish people you are so quickly sending "back to where they came from". I never claimed that. if you go back to 'who was here first' then yes, you had Cananaites and Hitties. find a few and let them speak for themselves. but I also said over and over that it doesnt matter. both nations have a claim here. you are the one who always go back (to the dates which fit your views) in time to see who was here first. if you go by who was here first, you will lose. what matters is who is here now. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

on this (rare) constructive note, please understand that for me, all of the west bank and "ancient Israel" is something that is rightfully ours. not because it is said so in the bible but because our history as a nation is linked to these places. we (at least most of us) do understand, however, that it is not realistic anymore and we must settle for less. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no, you have people who over and over again refused to accept the peaceful solution because it didnt give them ALL they wanted, started wars and lost. Do you honestly think "we feel like it"? no Israeli is happy with what's going on in Gaza. Israel LEFT Gaza. but when thousands of rockets fly over the borders, enough is enough. Israel left Gaza alone, Gaza came chasing us... which are? and how many rockets are acceptable? why should Israel stand by and absorb it? and once again, Hamas is not "just a few people who will not give it up.", they are the rulling party in Gaza. I'm happy to see you have a realistic side too. Ideally, "they" came from here and that is their home. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

probably, Palestiian villages were destroyed in the 1948 war. shall I remind you who started this war? no. some Palestinians fled and some stayed. those who stayed became Israeli citizens who have the same rights as I do (and we've been through this in the past). now, care to answer what is the solution, where does the border lie and does Israel get to exist in your view? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

and that means there was no conflict before 1948? your logic is weird... eventhough we went over this a couple of times, I still dont know what is the solution that you offer? is it the 1967 line or do you claim that ALL of israel is "stolen land" and by that you're basically saying that Israel needs to cease to exist before you will give us peace... stop with the generic statements, be specific. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

your statement simply proves who uninformed you are about the history of this region. i'm pretty sure 1929 and 1936 cane before 1948 1929 Riots 1936-39 Riots 1948 was significant but it wasn't the start. but even if you take this date, again, it was the Arabs who didnt accept the division plan going for the "all or nothing". "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

so what exactly did you mean by "the jews should go back the europe and give the land back to its rightful owner" or something like that? when this university is used as a bomb factory and storage area, i hope it is reduced to the ground. yes, and a palestinian state could have been formed right next to it, had they chose the road of peace. and still, Israel did not occupy the west bank or Gaza until 1967. so if you're talking about 1948, you're talking about the destruction of Israel. or maybe you can clearify what are the "legal borders? actually, most would not. most of the Israelis dont even want this war we have now but we feel enough is enough. let me remind you that in Israel we have elected a center-left government while in Gaza, Hamas (an extremist terorist group that vows to destroy israel) was elected. enough with the slogans, be specific. how would israel stop being the "oppressor"? where does it end? 67 line is good enough for you? it isnt't for Hamas... as many as are expandable by those who use them as human shields. if you can show me a way of preventing rocket launcheing from backyards, let me know... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

while i appreciate your support and this arguement does show the jewish link to this land, I dont think it will lead to any solution. both Israelis and Palestinians has a claim in this land and both claims are valid. even if I hold dear every bit of this land, 2 states is the only viable solution to a bloody story. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

well according to you Israrl has no right to exist, right? but, since we're talking about Gaza, Israel has pulled out of Gaza years ago, so IT IS within its legal borders, remember? yeah, ok. next... so today your selected date is 1947? how about the riots of 1929 and 1936-39? or don't those fit with your story? but even if you chose 1947, keep in mind that one side DID accept the division plan while the other side went to war (and lost). yes Israel is stronger. FAR stronger and it is using only a fraction of its military power. the weak is not always the victim. you keep ignoring the thousands of rockets launched from Gaza in recent years and over 50 daily right before Israel took action. need I remind you that these rockets were aimed at civilian towns (yeap, schools and hospitals included) so please, give me a break. as soon as Hamas fires into civilian towns, as soon as Hamas launches rockets from back yards, they can't complain about civilian victims. and one last point, the vast majority of those hit (even according to Palestinian sources) were Hamas militants. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no one does. where is your outrage about the thousands of rockets that have been flysing out of Gaza in recent years (and during the "cease fire")? or does those don't count? again with the cheap propaganda... get over it. what the hell are you talking about? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

actually no, the first strike caught them off guard and hit Hamas' military installations and over 90% where Hamas people. Now, that they went back to hiding in civilian structures, these ratios will probably change. noone in Israel has any wish to harm civilians but when Hamas fires from within civilian structures they are violating the rules of engagement, turning these structures into a valid target. for the past 8 years, thousands of rockets were launched at Israeli towns. in the week before the Israeli strike we had 50-60 daily (even when the border crossings were open. show me one other country that could allow this to continue? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

no they don't. even during the cease fire there were a few rockets fired every few days but last week they started falling down in the dozens per day. Israel has warned Hamas, the Egyptians have warned Hamas but rockets and morter shells kept fallking on Israeli towns (civilians, remember?). so yes, Israel is striking at Hamas which rules Gaza. sadly, this is war. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

and I believe that you believe it is so. I can also tell you that from my side, it looks like the world media is quick to jump on the "civilians got hurt" wagon, forgetting to add that rockets were launched from their back yard or that at the same checkpoints that delay these civilians you also found a LOT of explosives on their way to blow up a bus. you can clain the media is biased. I say its in the eye of the beholder. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

ofcourse he is.... I dont remember calling you a jew hater. I think i'm pretty factual in what I say. I believe your view of the situation is a bit twisted and biased and I believe Darius' view is (at based) unbased and sometimes fictional. there is nothing emotional about what I say. with all do respect, I don't know the two of you well enough to get emotional about this. but, its not the first time an incomplete picture is draen (e.g your apartheid statement) and when the full picture is drawn (e.g the reason for this seperation and the facts that Israelis cant go on the "Palestinian" roads either), this specific issue is dropped until next time. oh please, there is nothing the press loves more than the "underdog" with rocks against tanks. these are no rocks that are flying over the border out of Gaza, its missiles. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

I'm not talking about "some of their leaders" i'm talking about THE leaders. the prime minister and the head of Hamas in Syria. they are the ones who make the decisions. just 2 days ago, in a rally in Gaza (around 300,000 people...), Ismail Haniya, Hamas' leader in Gaza, reated that they would never recognise Israel... if i remember correctly it about 96% of the west bank and gaza, and the rest in territory swapping. If you accept the west bank and Gaza as the palestinian state, then its pretty much all of it. if you consider all of Israel as the palestinian state, then you're right, its not. you keep bringing up the Geneva convention. you should note that it does not apply here. yes, it states that civilians are not to be targetted and that hitting them should be avoided. but it also clearly states that combatants HAVE to be marked by distinct uniform and that ANY military activity should be well seperated from civilian population. when firing rockets from back yards and shooting from within homes, you cannot get behind the Geneca convention. and what about the kidnapped israeli soldier? no one knows if he is dead or alive, where he is or what is his status. they won't even let the red cross visit him. i'm sure there is a nice little chapter about POWs in Geneva convention, isnt there? no you shouldnt, and that what Arafat failed to do when he kept them as "plan B" after the Oslo accords. then they become more powerful than his party and now they are the ruling party. this is no longer a minority, this is their government. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

and again you speak without knowing what you're talking about (or maybe you do and ignore it) first of all, its not in Israel, its in the west bank (which was never annexed to israel). and just as they are "jewish" roads, there are "palestinian" roads where jewish israelis are not allowed. the reason is racism, its security. Have as many terrorist attacks and drive by shootings as we had, and you'll see the reasoning behind keeping a distance between the two. I don't really care what your motives are, but maybe you should have a reality check and stop ignoring the parts of history that dont allign with your theory. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

you use big words without really understanding what it is you are saying. and as always, you use ambiguity to back your claims, ignoring the facts that make your claims invalid. as always, you dont make the difference between Israeli arabs, which are EQUAL BY LAW and have the exact same rights as I do (beside not having to serve in the army) and the palestinians in the west bank and Gaza which are NOT ISRAELI CITIZENS. to say they suffer from racism because they dont have the same rights as me is like saying an illigal immigrant from Mexico not allowed to work in the US is racism. further more, ISRAEL DOES NOT CONTROL GAZA. there is not a single israeli citizen nor soldier (beside the kidnapped one (which is held against all human rights treaties, btw). and still missiles fly out of Gaza TARGETTING CIVILIAN CITIES. where does it say that Israel HAS to keep the border crossing to Gaza open or supply them with food, fuel and power? show me one other example in history where one country kept supplying another country while in a state of war with it? Dude, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. then again, according the the Iranian president there was no holocaust, so maybe the Nazis weren't that bad, right? I'll ask you the same question I ask you whenever you determine "ownership". by what date do you set the ownership? what makes 1948 more viable than 100BC in setting a nation's homeland? O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

last time I checked, Hamas was the government. the same Hamas who openly and clearly declares that it will not stop until Israel is destroyed and "whole" of Palestine is released. this is no "small group", its the group in power. if that was true we would have had peace in 2000. I said in the past and I'll say it again now. I consider the west bank to be as much as Israeli as it is Palestinian and you cannot dispute the historic connection the Jewish people has to these lands. having said that, I realize (as do most Israelis) that there is another nation with the same claim and that the only way is to divide the land we both see as our own. you can't say there is no disputed territory, obviously, there is. I would really like to believe that if Israel pulls back to the 1967 line, it will all end. but look at history and look at the fact. - this mess started long before 1967, even before 1948... - whenever Israel pulled back (Gaza, parts of the west bank, Lebanon), there was no peace and quiet - Hezbollah continued its attacks across the border (one of which led to war 2 years ago) - Hamas is firing rocket DAILY at Israeli towns across the border (although officialy we should have a cease fire now). not to mention their declerations about not recognizing Israel's right to exist. really, I (and most Israelis) can live within the 1967 borders. its not easy, because I do feel attached to these lands but I am willing to give it up for peace and quiet. but, if the other party (and our friend Darius here) claims that the only way to make it right is to destroy the state of Israel, then we have a problem, dont you think? O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."