steveorino

His argument from this? So someone that does good deeds and acts with compasion but doesnt sign up to be one of the faithful can't get into heaven. But someone that does bad deeds and does sign up to the faith can get into heaven. Is it any wonder then that people who are religious are more keen to acts religiously (however that is defined) than to act with compassion The point being lost here is you "get into heaven" by grace, not by your works. The best ANY man can do will not earn him heaven. Good man/bad man, it makes no difference. You are not going to work your way into heaven. It is a gift, but you must accept His gift. If you thumb your nose at God and say, "No thanks" you reject that gift (God's grace) Will some "good" people reject God and spend eternity apart from him? Yes. Will some "bad" people turn from their ways and accept God's grace and be with him for eternity? Yes. Look at this response from JC: To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:9-14 There are some who believe works on earth = rewards in heaven. I know the verses they use to back that up, but I disagree. Of course, I could be wrong. I don't think my "works" earn me anything. I think they show I have decided to follow Christ's teachings, and truthfully, they give me a sense of doing something good for people. steveOrino

No (emphasis mine) steveOrino

I'm sorry I could not make it more clear to you. I tried my best. peace. steveOrino

Maybe I missed his point. James saying faith without works is dead implies that although being saved by grace means you don't work to get into heaven, accepting grace means a transformation in our lives. JC says the same thing when he says "This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples." steveOrino

So does Paul's version of "saved" rely on observing James's version of "religion"? It seems to me from what Paul wrote, it doesn't but James's comment that faith without works is dead suggests otherwise. So we aren't much nearer to clearing that connundrum up and were back to the idea that works may or may not stop you from entering heaven but without faith you're definately stuffed. Something is definately arse-about-face here. You are saved by grace (Paul) Your works show your salvation to be true (James) Again your confusing salvation with religion. James was writing to people who were already Christians. He wasn't instructing them how to be saved. He was instructing them how to act now that they have been saved steveOrino

Really? I only started watching last year and I only watch the first few shows to see the "really bad stuff" It is a hoot! Once they get to the serious competition, I move on. steveOrino

God bless Jeff and those who serve. Blue skies steveOrino

I don't think very many Christians would view "salvation" as simply as you put it. It is just a straw man. Paj has argued that point over and over. Just in case you missed his many threads on that very subject let me leave you with the words of Apostle Paul in his letter to the church in Ephesus: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. " James was writing to the church in Jerusalem. His audience were Christians. You should read the book of James, it is short and to the point. If he was speaking to America's church his message may have read something like this. You think you are religous because you have big buildings with big programs. Your services have become a fashion show. That type of "religion" is not what God wants. Now that you have been redeemed by the Lord here is how you should be acting .... "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." steveOrino

Is not that easy when your DZ is small, has 2 big rivers and one lake nearby, a big cloud is coming to you, plus the fact that you have 14 more eager to jump people pushing behind you and who literally would kick you out of the plane if do not jump pretty fast, plus the fact that you have just convinced the pilots to go 2500 ft higher and they have not taken lunch yet No kidding! That was the environment If you guys got 15 (14 + you) going AFTER a tandem you guys are jusking ASKING for a fatality. If that was my DZs policy (tandems jump first), I'd jump else where. steveOrino

So good deeds will get you into heaven? No, he was referring to "religion" not salvation steveOrino

I like what James said about religion (James 1:27) Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. steveOrino

Does boldfacing your post mean it's more important than everyone else's? No, perhaps it is my old age. I have a hard time reading some reply posts when there are multiple comments to multiple fractions of paragraphs. i thought it may help other old farts .. sorry. steveOrino

For newbies they have more than enough stuff to think about. No one puts the camera on their head and forgets it. You start thinking about is it on, did I set the settings right, did I remember to set the focus, etc. Yes, this comes more into play more when you are actually getting paid to jump a camera, because if you screw that up(the basics I mentioned) you screwed up the entire video for a paying customer. So it is less of a hassle for those who want to just record what they see. But from my own personal point of view you will quickly tire of filming a lot of air and will gravitate to getting "the shot". steveOrino

I know, but I can't stand political threads and I wanted to post. steveOrino

Actually my wife usually selects her team based on the uniform ... Seriousl. Both coaches are great examples to follow. Personally I hope for a great game, and I would be happy if Peyton won. steveOrino

Yeah, it was all just a metaphor for how much we should love God. I'm surprised you didn't spot that. Do the sins of Christians disprove Christianity and what the Bible teaches? Do the Crusades and the Inquisition prove God doesn’t exist and the Bible false? Would the hypocritical sins of televangelist Jimmy Swaggert reveal that Jesus is not humanity’s Savior? Does former NAE President Ted Haggard’s meeting with a homosexual “escort” prove Jesus Christ was not the Son of God? If so, then we must accept as a general principle that the (im)moral actions of any adherents of any belief system are a way to determine said belief’s system is ultimately true. If crusades refute Catholicism, do jihads refute Islam? DoStalin’s political attacks on Soviet scientists refute Marxism and/or atheism? Can we reject a belief system based upon the bad behavior of those upholding it? Bad or incosistent behavior by atheists or theists can not logically prove or disprove the existence of God or the truth or falsity of any philosophical position or religion. The Crusades, the Inquisition, Western Imperialism, the transatlantic slave trade, the Irish Troubles, etc., can not ultimately prove the falsehood of the Bible or of belief in God. The Bible could be perfectly true, and God could exist, yet people who believe in it and Him would have an evil human nature that causes them to fail to love others of their faith or outside of it. If you want to argue that practioners of faith who act or speak inconsistently with their faith create problems, I'll agree. But let's not use this as a straw man to debunk a faith. Nor should we imply good exegesis of scripture as trying to cover up "contradictions" or misinterpretations steveOrino

In times past I lived 1000 miles, 1500 miles, 2500 miles and 5000 miles from my home town. Now I live 250 miles from it. steveOrino

I take it that you also were in the Gulf at that time. Such fond memories of Iranian gunboats coming alongside and then hours upon hours of general quarters... We had our chance to crush them and then blew it. Actually, my A-Team went in right after hostages were taken in Nov '79. We bought/leased trucks and warehouses to function as a safe house when Delta was to take the hostages out. After that fiasco in the desert it took months to get out alive. They were very suspicous of anybody that looked western. duh. steveOrino

I get anxious over certain jumps (demo carrying a huge flag, trying to get a rating -- ask my tandem evaluator about me swalling puke to keep from puking on him!) But for the most part I'm not "nervous" -- I "think" it went away around 30-40 jumps. steveOrino

I know it is wrong on so many counts, but ever since 1979 I've been waiting to kick a little Iranian butt. j/k guys, well, mostly. steveOrino

Read this thread, it may give insight to how that is possible. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=953468;#953468 steveOrino

I agree with you then. Much has been done that is VERY wrong by people who were either misusing texts for their own personal gain, or pure ignorance. Yes, I would. One of the reasons I studied theology was that I had so many questions. Learning how to study scripture helped with most of the questions. BTW, it is not that I don't want to continue our debate, but were going around in circles, and I felt I was making you upset. steveOrino

I'm not sure why this such a biggie, other than you were not prepared. It was said (I believe in 2004) that this was going to happen. I have traveled abroad, and I'm required to show a passport to get into other countries. I certainly don't get all bent out of shape over it. Am I missing something? steveOrino

You obviously have never read many of my posts on religion and especially the Bible. I have said many times there has been way too many atrocities done in the name of God. (see my question in the thread: Honest Questions for God) I have frequently said the bible has been misunderstood and misused by countless generations for their own agenda. My worldview is centered on Christ teachings. I try very hard to see the Bible through that filter. That doesn't make me right and everyone else wrong, but it does however give me the best chance to not misuse to Bible for my own gain whether that be personal, political or anything else. For instance: This whole "left behind" "rapture" crap. I believe the biblical writer writes to his own generation. I believe Revelation was about staying true to Christ during persecution. The promise of victory for those in Christ is about the peace that living for Christ brings. Today, and many times before people point to some small valley (Meggido) where in a future battle God overcomes evil with force in a literal battle. My goodness, JC clearly taught that those who live by the sword will die by the sword. You cannot overcome evil by force! /rant BTW, calling you a fundy is only stating the obvious. You prefer not to study scripture to gain good insight, but prefer to take everything literal so it will support your worldview that there is no God. I wish you peace, so I will stop responding to you on this thread as it seems to inflame you more. I'm sorry about that. steveOrino