steveorino

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sui_bibl.htm http://www.christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y038.html http://www.christiananswers.net/q-dml/suicide-and-heaven.html Most sources agree that a Christian, which commits suicide, will not go to Heaven, as commiting suicide is a serious sin, and you obviously have no chance to fix it before the Last Judgement. But what is the scriptural reference for your statement that suicide is one of the worst sins in the Bible? I'll save you time. There is none. That is a Roman Catholic doctrine. Maybe Russian Orthodox as well??? Your first reference says your assumption is wrong. Here is your reference, word for word (emphasis mine) Augustine argued in the fifth century that suicide was a violation of the sixth commandment, "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Later, Thomas Aquinas, being catholic and believing that confession of sin must be made prior to departure from the world to the next, taught that suicide was the most fatal of all sins because the victim could not repent of it. The problem with his view is that it represents a gross misunderstanding of eternal security, which Scripture clearly teaches. We are saved by the grace of God, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and nothing can separate a Christian from the love of God (Romans 8:37-39). Your second reference refers back to the first response. The third reference states the "christian" (Roman Catholic) doctrine is outside of scripture. Here is the third response (Ephasis mine) The Bible contains a number of references to men seeking suicide, either by taking direct action or by begging God to kill them on the spot. In these passages, the authors of the Bible do not appear to consider suicide to be a great moral sin. The act of committing suicide or of asking that God kill them are simply reported in a factual manner. The authors do not interpret these acts as sinful. They seem to be regarded simply as straightforward personal decisions. However, the Christian [Roman Catholic] church has traditionally deviated from the biblical message and has considered suicide to be a great moral sin. Some denominations have even refused to bury people who have committed suicide I don't know why the author of this website states "Christian" when it should have stated "Catholic" unless ithey are like many denominations and believe every denomination holds true the teachings of their own. I can say with confidence that the evangelical word (Baptist, Nazarene, AOG, COG, CC, Charamatic, etc) don't hold onto that Roman Catholic teaching. I'm not so sure about Methodist, Episcolpal & Presbyrterian. Maybe others can enlighten. steveOrino

Please give me a reference for this statement. (suicide is one of the worst sins in the bible) steveOrino

Man, I'm striking out here. My main objection was the date 325. A little historical understanding of what the Council of Nicea was about would dispel this, but few people outside Christianity have a clue. I'll try one more time. People who identified themselves as Christians wrote directly about the doctrine of the trinity as a church doctrine 100s of years before the Council of Nicea developed their creed. Therefore it is my statement that the Doctrine of the Trinity did not just appear at the Council of Nicea in 325. In fact it existed in Christian writings 100s of years earlier. It was at the Council of Nicea that the church put an "official" stamp on that particular doctrine. Where there people who disagreed with the doctrine of the trinity back then? Yes, But there were people who disagreed around 325 CE, and throughout history too. Some Christians today do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. However, in mainstream churches it is the prevalant belief. I'll try a different comparison and hope I don't sidetrack my point. Today most scientist believe in global warming, no? But there are some scientist who deny it, or say it is a natural consequence that is not impacted by mankind. While there are different beliefs there is a main belief that is prevelant in most scientific circles. The sources I cited teach the doctrine of the Trinity exclusively. Those who deny the doctrine of the Trinity do not quote Tertulian, Justin Martyr or Origen. So while some may believe the Gospel is ambiguous about the Trinity because it does call it that by name, they have few good answers for sayings of JC like, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19 " steveOrino

yes, my worldview influences how I vote. I suspect everyone's worldview influences their vote. Your Taliban comparison is a little silly, isn't it? steveOrino

It is a perfect example. I'm willing to live with laws I don't like. It motivates me to vote and take part in the democratic process. Do you think everyone in the USA likes every law that is enacted? Do you think those that dissent are denied their rights to change the laws they disagree with through lobbying and voting? steveOrino

I thought he looked like a general I knew from the JFKIMA. steveOrino

Isn't that in a sense what most every law does? For example, when a group of people believe the enviornment is being harmed, they lobby congress to enact laws that will protect it. If our representatives, who we elected, pass that legislation then it becomes law. I don't agree with some of the legislation that has been passed by congress regarding the enviornment, but I hardly call that forcing me to do something. And if in fact I believe the law is wrong, I have every right to lobby my congressman to change the law. I would not have it any other way. steveOrino

My closest friends are my Harley riding buds. I manage to squeak a ride in every now and then. We still go out to eat or play cards most every week. We even take trips to Cancun with them. steveOrino

To clarify. My response you cited was true to the extent I was growing weary of you continually wanting a scientific reason for things that are spiritual in nature. Yet, you continue to chime into my comments made to other posters. That is how the trekki comment came about. When you responded to my reply to a tekkie's comment I assumed it was you. I seldom go back 3-4 pages to see if the poster is the one I originally commented on. So, when I was responding to Andy's Spock comment, you mistakenly were included. EDITED TO ADD: Andy, I was just joking! You don't have email or allow PMs so I could not tell you that. I never figured people would get all bent ouf shape by calling a trekki a nerd. My bad. Your "panties in a wad attitude" was enough for me to say that is enough for me. The fun has been taken out. steveOrino

George, let me see if I can clear up some confusion here. My responses on the Trinity was in reply to HairyJuan who said it was a pagan philosophy adopted by the church in 325 CE. I was trying to point out that the doctrine of the Trinity had its roots in the gospel and early church fathers 100s of years before the Council of Nicea. That Council began an era where the church was more "established" as a state religion. Where there other doctrines in Christianity that conflicted the doctrine of the Trinity? Yes, but they were never recognized by the leaders the church claims as patriarchs of the faith such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen. My point was not that the doctrine of the Trinity was the only doctrine taught at that time, but that the doctrine of the Trinity was well established by the church fathers before the Council of Nicea made it part of the "official" church teachings. You are right that to this day there are those in Christianity that deny this doctrine. I was not disputing that. I enjoy debating you George, but I feel I don't communicate to you very clearly for some reason. I apologize for the remark that Billvon deemed a PA. I didn't mean it that way. I hope we can remain civil and continue a debate on this topic or others. My list of atheists on dropzone.com I'm willing to exchange thoughts with is diminishing. Phil is too sensitive (trekki nerd comment put his panties in a wad), Hairy is too far on the edge (denying the existence of a historical figure and all) Have a great day! steveOrino

Yes, that is my definition of democracy, a form of government in which the people freely elect representatives to govern them. We elect those officials based on our view of morality & justice. steveOrino

Obviously we don't share the same definition as "universally". steveOrino

THAT is a personal attack?? steveOrino

You just mentioned that Christians should lobby to prevent others from doing things Christians religion considers immoral. This is exactly the same - basically you are saying that everyone, including non-Christians, should behave according to your beliefs. I was born in a country where all the religions were very restricted. Now I can say for sure it definitely was not a bad thing. To me it looks as you should go back there. You don't appreciate a democracy. You'd rather have the government tell you what to do than have people lobby & vote their conscience. I believe abortion is wrong, but i don't want to live in a country where i have no say in the laws. I prefer to live with the freedom that I can change laws I don't like by being politically active. I'm glad people like myself, my son and countless others serve so we may remain free. Why choose to live in a country when you don't like their form of government? steveOrino

He doesn't have those. He is wanting those. steveOrino

Congrats!! I'm jealous! steveOrino

I have always though certain names and images were insensitive, tacky or racist. EXAMPLE: name: Redskins image: Cleavland Indians logo actions: white guys dancing (poorly) in native american costume, tomahawk chop But for the life of me, I cannot see the offense in terms like Braves, Chiefs, Seminoles, Fighting Illini any more than Vikings, Fighting Irish, and Celtics Am I missing something? steveOrino

What is a DEMON DEACON ala Wake Forest? Oh, never mind, I've been to a church board meeting before. steveOrino

Must be a trekkie phrase ... steveOrino

Too fast for me. I'd rather cruise Brookside and stop of at Crow Creek Tavren. steveOrino

Good call

No more illiniwek http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/ncaa/03/13/chief.illiniwek.ap/index.html steveOrino

That is not a bike, THIS is a bike! Al kidding aside. Be careful! steveOrino

You must have mistaken me for someone else. I have never said USA was Christian nation. However, I have gone on record saying Christianity was better when it was not a state religion. steveOrino

I cannot think of a time when I forced anyone to believe what I believe. I never remember voting to keep religion? It must have been one of those local elections. steveOrino