steveorino

Let's look closely at the BIG one. The crucifiction. It was prophesied in Psalm 22 100s of years before crucifiction was common practice. At the time no Jewish theology included a "suffering" messiah. In fact quite the contrary, they still don't today. It would be inconceiveable for the Jews to think their Messiah would die as a criminal. Yet the Psalmter wrote about a crucifiction in Psalm 22. Hundreds of years later JC is crucified just as the Psalmter predicted. His crucifiction stands as historical fact outside the Bible steveOrino

Yes, there are martyrs in most every religion, but dying for what you BELIEVE to be true is a LOT different than dying for what you KNOW to be false. Which is the case if the aspostles were willing to die for a myth they created. steveOrino

There are over 700 OT prophecies concerning the Messiah. Obviously I only pasted a small fraction. What would the odds be that one man fulfilled all 700 of these ancient prophecies? steveOrino

I doubt that would work as you need a VERY wide angle like .3 or .25 to have good coverage, IMHO. I have a Sony HC40 & dimond .3 wide angle lens. http://www.steveorino.com/videos/handcam.wmv steveOrino

More evidence Christian persecution started with Jesus himself. He was asked directly at trial, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” Jesus left no room for ambiguity – His first two words were “I am.” The religious elite in Jerusalem knew what Jesus was saying – It was very clear to them that He was claiming to be God. As such, Jesus was put to death on a Roman cross for the crime of blasphemy, thus becoming the first martyr for what would become the Christian Church. Christian persecution was a dramatic part of early church history. For anyone who holds that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was a man-made hoax conspired by a group of disciples should check out the legacy of martyrdom. Eleven of the 12 apostles, and many of the other early disciples, died for their adherence to this story. This is dramatic, since they all witnessed the alleged events of Jesus and still went to their deaths defending their faith. Why is this dramatic, when many throughout history have died martyred deaths for a religious belief? Because people don’t die for a lie. Look at human nature throughout history. No conspiracy can be maintained when life or liberty is at stake. Dying for a belief is one thing, but numerous eye-witnesses dying for a known lie is quite another. Here is an account of early Christian persecution, as compiled from numerous sources outside the Bible, the most-famous of which is Foxes’ Christian Martyrs of the World: Around 34 A.D., one year after the crucifixion of Jesus, Stephen was thrown out of Jerusalem and stoned to death. Approximately 2,000 Christians suffered martyrdom in Jerusalem during this period. About 10 years later, James, the son of Zebedee and the elder brother of John, was killed when Herod Agrippa arrived as governor of Judea. Agrippa detested the Christian sect of Jews, and many early disciples were martyred under his rule, including Timon and Parmenas. Around 54 A.D., Philip, a disciple from Bethsaida, in Galilee, suffered martyrdom at Heliopolis, in Phrygia. He was scourged, thrown into prison, and afterwards crucified. About six years later, Matthew, the tax-collector from Nazareth who wrote his gospel in Hebrew, was preaching in Ethiopia when he suffered martyrdom by the sword. James, the brother of Jesus, administered the early church in Jerusalem and was the author of an Epistle by his name. At age 94, he was beat and stoned, and finally had his brains bashed out with a fuller's club. Matthias was the apostle who filled the vacant place of Judas. He was stoned at Jerusalem and then beheaded. Andrew was the brother of Peter who preached the gospel throughout Asia. On his arrival at Edessa, he was arrested and crucified on a cross, the two ends of which were fixed transversely in the ground (this is where we get the term, St. Andrew's Cross). Mark was converted to Christianity by Peter, and then transcribed Peter’s account of Jesus in his Gospel. Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria in front of Serapis, their pagan idol. It appears Peter was condemned to death and crucified at Rome. Jerome holds that Peter was crucified upside down, at his own request, because he said he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord. Paul suffered in the first persecution under Nero. Paul’s faith was so dramatic in the face of martyrdom, that the authorities removed him to a private place for execution by the sword. In about 72 A.D., Jude, the brother of James who was commonly called Thaddeus, was crucified at Edessa. Bartholomew preached in several countries and translated the Gospel of Matthew into the language of India. He was cruelly beaten and then crucified by idolaters there. Thomas, called Didymus, preached the Gospel in Parthia and India, where exciting the rage of the pagan priests, he was martyred by being thrust through with a spear. Luke was the author of the Gospel under his name. He traveled with Paul through various countries and is supposed to have been hanged on an olive tree by idolatrous priests in Greece. Barnabas, of Cyprus, was killed without many known facts in about 73 A.D. Simon, surnamed Zelotes, preached the Gospel in Mauritania, Africa, and even in Britain, where he was crucified in about 74 A.D. John, the "beloved disciple," was the brother of James. From Ephesus he was ordered to Rome, where it is affirmed he was cast into a cauldron of boiling oil. He escaped by miracle, without injury. Domitian afterwards banished him to the Isle of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelation. He was the only apostle who escaped a violent death. Christian persecution didn’t slow the growth of the Christian faith during the first few centuries after Christ. Even as its early leaders died horrible deaths, Christianity flourished throughout the Roman Empire. How can this historical record of martyrdom be viewed as anything but dramatic evidence for the absolute truth of the Christian faith – a faith, unlike any other, founded on historical events and eye-witness testimony steveOrino

Please provide for me evidence that Christ isn't who he says he is and I will consider changing my mind. steveOrino

A llittle of the "evidence" you demand. OT prophecies written hundreds of years before Christ were fulfilled in him. Her are but a few. Jesus' place of birth in Bethlehem Micah 5:2, "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." Fulfilled in Matt. 2:1, "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem." Jesus would be preceded by a messenger Isaiah 40:3, "A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.'" Fulfilled in Matt. 3:1-2, "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'" Rejected by His own people Isaiah 53:3, "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Fulfilled in John 7:5, "For even his own brothers did not believe in him," and John 7:48, "Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him?" Jesus' side pierced Zech. 12:10, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one mourns for an only son." Fulfilled in John 19:34, "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water." Jesus would be crucified Psalm 22:1, Psalm 22:11-18, "For the director of music. To the tune of "The Doe of the Morning." A psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?...Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." Fulfilled in John 19:23-24, "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. Let's not tear it, they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it." This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, "They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." So this is what the soldiers did." steveOrino

I "usually" enjoy the debates (if you can call it that) on SC. At the same time I feel angry and frustrated at the example many Christians leave. (not necessarily speaking of any christian in SC) My goal isn't to convince atheists to change their mind. As it is often pointed out, we all have a worldview that is hard to shake. My goal is to enjoy the mental gymnastics and to offer insight to assumptions. I have gained insight from many here from buddhists to agnostics to atheists. I believe it is a terrible mistake that many Christians make when they believe all atheist/agnostics are devil worshipping, self-serving, religion hating "fools". Yes, I'm aware of the passage in Psalms that says those who say there is no god are fools, but are those Christians aware of the passage in Peter that says we are to share our faith with gentleness and respect?? 1 Peter 3:15 Anyway, I wish you peace. steveOrino

feel better now? steveOrino

BTW, the term ghost is a very poor translation. yes, I know many Christians use the KJV translation Holy Ghost. However, you have never seen me write that, yet you continue to use that term when responding to me. I guess it makes you think your argument is superior because you don't believe in "ghost"? Whatever floats your boat. steveOrino

But you have made your mind up about your worldview. Why are you claiming I must review neuro chemistry, economics or game theory to know, but you don't have read the Bible or other Christian philosophers? steveOrino

We were speaking about the HS in the Christian faith. Where else but Christian writings should I go for an authoritative explanation about Him? steveOrino

You are right, the HS is not the only source of these qualities, but is understood from scripture that only Christians have the HS in them. So the question of what the HS looks like in non-believers is essentially a non-question. So back to Christians. They may have some of the fruits naturally and they may fake it as well. However, their life (walk along with talk and attitude) will show them to be followers of JC or not. There are other evidences of the HS recorded throughout the book of Acts. steveOrino

I'm reminded of an old gospel tune that says, "If heaven was never promised to me, never to live eternally, it's been worth having the Lord in my life" While I believe in heaven, I have much more of God's kingdom is now theory. Having JC in my life, with the peace and joy he brings, has brought me pleasure beyond description. And what have I given up to follow Him? Have I given up anything I miss? No. nothing. I miss nothing of my former life ... nothing. Having JC in my life is what makes me full of joy. To me personally, the promise of heaven is only the icing on the cake.

Guess what ... there is debate about this in the Christian church. There are those who refer to passages in Acts about the evidence of the HS was speaking in tongues. I don't agree with their interpretation. However, even those who do believe the evidence is glossolalia agree that the Apostle Paul said fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. I have known many "christians" who can fake speaking in tongues or being slain in the Spirit, or any number of supernatural events, but I have never met any Christian who can fake the fruits of the HS that Paul speaks of for any length of time. I'm not convinced that being open minded means one has to have read all the works of antiquity that refer to other Gods. But if that is so, have you read every piece of literature in the realm of Christianity so you may keep an open mind toward it? steveOrino

I keep wondering how this "goofball" "too stupid to tie his shoes" succeeded in fooling most all of congress who has some of the brightest minds in history (Hilary ) that Iraq had WMD when he "knew" the intel was faulty. Was he stupid or smart? You can't have it both ways. steveOrino

Kept alive? I didn't know my christ/god relationship was dying?? While I have taught that journaling is a good thing and aids one's spiritual walk, I have never been able to do that consistently. Many reasons I suppose. #1 I can't type. #2 My handwriting is illegible #3 I'm overstretched as far as time is now. Too many jobs too many hours of Master level courses. steveOrino

It does provide strong evidence and argument against the validitiy and origon of this belief system though. IMO Why? Why discount the teachings of Christ because so many misused them? A quick study of the origins of Christianity show it to be ANYTHING but a method for gaining power. That particular misuse did not come into play until a few hundred years after Christ when it became the state religion of Rome. It did so because Constatine saw a vison of the cross and thought it would guide him to victory in battle. steveOrino

Are the entrance requirements for heaven on the 'peripheral' side of christianity? I don't think so, but I guess that depends on who is classifying the peripheals. The Apostle Paul said it this way. Romans 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. steveOrino

Not all Christian desire to use fear as a motive to evangelize. I for one believe it is the worst possible method out there. More often than not those who come to Christ simply to escape hell (or gain heaven) do not accept JC's teachings. Their position in Him is not one that I would want to have. Yes, Christianity, as well as many idealogies, have been subjugated to gain control over masses of people. That doesn't make the teachings of Christ wrong steveOrino

I agree with your assumption that JWs are a cult based on their non-acceptance of typical orthodox Christian teachings (such as diety of JC and the trinity) Yes, I have seen MANY differences in the denominations of Christianity. However, my experience in studying theology is the differences are "typically" on peripheal issues. Now some "christians" love to major on the minors, and they tend to be the most vocal ones who get the most press. (and TV time ). steveOrino

I believe hell is separation from God. I believe the images of darkness and fire along with pain indicate the absence of good, the regret one has for rejecting God and his efforts to "save" you. JC teaches there is a separation. To the exent of what heaven and hell will be like exactly I would not say with certainty. Too many of our ideas of heaven and hell come from extrabiblical sources. A few things I'm more certain of ... Heaven will be in the presence of God. It will not be all white and I won't be playing a harp. steveOrino

So do you believe that all religions are just different paths to the same place? Are Muslims equally correct as Christians? I'm sorry I thought my phrase was self-explanatory ... obviously not to all. While I believe ALL people are equal in the sight of God, and I venture to not judge any person based on their race, ethnicity, or religous persuasion, I believe in the exclusive teachings of Christ. steveOrino

I've been intelectually honest in my studies. I believe I have been thourough and open minded. I have purposedly sought out ideas (universities) from many different backgrounds. To say I'm 100% right would be rather arrogant. I have been open to ideas that challenge my faith from professors, atheists/agnostics, and other religous ideaologies, and I continue to learn. At times, my ideas and insights have changed, sometimes dramtically, at other times I simply tweaked an idea with further insight. I believe in an equality of people and a exclusivity of ideas. Sadly, what I see more of is a demand for equality of ideas and exclusivity of people. steveOrino

No debating you here. There are others who feel they have the path and no one else. They are either telling the truth or deceived. Good theological study reveals the latter. One thing I have discovered in my years of studying theology, the more narrow minded the interpretation of scripture, the less scholastic principles of theology are applied. steveOrino