steveorino

You have never studied soteriology either. It explains it quite well. But you'd rather have it in a snippit that while fits in a forum thread that doesn't do it justice. Rather it is simply compared to "fairyology" Not an intellectually honest approach. IMHO. It is the same way many fundies ignore science. As far as making sense to humans I beg to differ. About 80% of humans are open to the idea of God according to a recent survey I read. Of the remaining 20% that do not belief in a diety of any form, 16% are simply agnostic, and about 4% are claiming to be atheist. If those stats are "close" to being true, I'd say humans have a great capacity to accept the idea that having faith in the existence of God is key to understanding him makes a lot of sense. steveOrino

Why is it a cop out? You don't believe he exists so you will disallow everything he can do to show you he does exist, just as a fundy christian disallows everything science shows him that the earth is older than 6,000 years. no? steveOrino

How? Did he suffer the punishment that would otherwise be given to a sinful man - not mortal death but an eternity in hell? Like I said with Phil. You are trying to make a complex subject, soteriology, too simple. It cannot be laid out in a thread on a forum. Also, while it is fun at times to debate I realize according to scripture true atheists will never see God unless they change their world view and core belief to open themselves up for the "possibility" of God's existence. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him steveOrino

JC's sacrifice has less to do with the horrible way he died (crucifiction) than the fact he (a sinless man) carried the weight of sin. If you studied soteriology you'd understand. steveOrino

I agree -- obviously that is not what Christ intended for his followers to do. Or as Paul put it ... Romans 12;3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you steveOrino

That is what they should think. As to what they think ... I don't play that game. I don't know what ANYONE else thinks. Surely some act like they think they ar ebetter. they shouldn't. Galatians 6:3-4 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, steveOrino

truthfully, I think most Christians believe we are all the same as far "being good". Beinga Christian isn't about being a person God likes better. It is about choosing to follow what we feel is God's leading through scripture, and the teachings of JC steveOrino

no, not to me. steveOrino

yep, that can be a problem. However, I'm part of the solution, not the problem. Well, I guess that depends on whose side you are on. steveOrino

I don't fall into the fallacy of judging ancient people by the standards of the day. steveOrino

steveOrino

A holy and perfect God would demand a holy and perfect sacriface. Your friend wouldn't fit that description, would he? steveOrino

Most likely most of the theology you know or have read about is a calvinist theology where God has predetermined everything. They answer that by saying God knew we would fall and he set it up to redeem us. I have a Wesleyan arminian theology, that says God knows all our possible choices, but leaves the choices to us. Still the sacrifice of the Son is the act of a God who loves us with more love than I have. Even though I have a son serving in Afghanistan I cannot fathom sacrificing him for others. Especially when so many will not believe. steveOrino

Endured all of what, dying? We all die, and many people die for the sake of others. Why isn't their sacrifice worth anything? I suppose in many cases it is. for instance when a soldier dies for another. However, in JCs case it is the divine, sinless, god-man dying as a substitute for me. You are right, we all die physically. Many of us die spiritually as well. The physical death JC paid on the cross paid for my spiritual death (separation from a holy God) that was due me. steveOrino

Thanks, I often wonder if anyone has a big picture. From the outside looking in it seldom looks as though we do. However, I remember back in the late 70s I had a good idea of why I (SF) did what what we did, but I doubt if anyone outside SF had a clue. steveOrino

That's what I do with wings and they don't make a difference. No doubt I have them tucked in a bit though. steveOrino

JC, although divine, was fully human ... he endured it all. As far as the blood sacrifice thing goes ... that is best described and understood in the theology of atonement. It is not a subject that can be done justice on an internet forum. That being said, I do appreciate your dilemma with it. steveOrino

I asked my son serving in Afghanistan about that and his response clarifiiied it for me. Does it matter? He's spent or lost most of his fortune, he is disowned by his family and he is hinding in caves with a multi million dollar bounty on his head. He probably wished he was dead with his 2K virgins. steveOrino

Who was it, and why did they need one? Everyone who lived before Christ sinned and they too needed a savior. God's grace extends throughout history from the cross. backwards and fowards. steveOrino

Thank you ... I think. Let me say I don't think I have endured very many hardships. I paid my own way twice to do mission work for a pastor in Costa Rica who pastored two churches. One in Limon, and the other a train trip into the rain forrest (Cimmaronnes) sp? He sacrificed a lot. He worked as a long shoreman during the day unloading ships, then pastored the two congregations for little or no money. He lived in a squalor compared to our poor, yet he was very happy. He taught me a lot as we built two buildings together that will serve as churches and youth centers. Let me clarify, that while I did take a major cut in salary to pastor I was able to provide for my family by taking on additional jobs. Most of them, not strenous. I illustrated for major magazines (something I never knew I could do, until poverty drove me to find out how to do it) I designed websites, and I learned to skydive then (do video, coach, teach, & instruct) I believed I sacrificed my income to do ministry with the understanding that God will provide for me in other ways. He has many times over. steveOrino

My views are no doubt, unpopular with many Christians. I believe as they do in many things such as God is the creator, he is holy, JC is his son, he paid the price for our sin, etc, etc. Still, if none of that was true I believe the peace my spirit finds in him worth any effort I have put forth to follow his teachings. IMHO, I have given up nothing and gained everything. As far as original sin ... to me it is not a stretch to see everyone sins in omission and comission. If I believe God is pure and holy, then I can see how I fail to measure up. I can see I need a savior. If I reject that tehre is a god, then that is another story. While I can fathom I may not know all about God I cannot fathom there being no God. steveOrino

For the life of me I can't see how you got that out of what I typed. I never said some are born into an easy life and the test of us earn it by paying the price through our difficulties. ALL of us have difficulties. Some are harder than others. Most of that has to do with where we are in life. Most of us in the USA are some of the wealthiest people in the world according to the world's economy. I believe that brings a certain bit of responsibility for us, but that is not what I was implying. I implied God used my trial to make me a better person. A trial he neither brought or orchestrated. A trial of my own doing he used for my good. agree, but apart from the religous charlatans that fleece their audience, what does that have to do with anything? NO, you obviously have never readany of my other posts. I believe the Bible tells us what we need to know in order to be saved (made spiritually whole) That is what the Greek word actually means. IMHO, it is not a science or history book. I sure don't think we should spread it around evenly that is for sure. That has never worked. However, I do feel the rich (USA is included in that description) should use their wealth to help the poor. Look at what Pastor Rick Warren is doing with his "PEACE" project" For one we don't spend our meager resources on land that is used for a few hours a week. The ROCK church is homeless in that we do not own a building. Typically we meet in a park, lake, home or the DZ. This past week we spent the morning service picking up the trash around the park and sanding the graffitti off the picnic tables. You are clueles to what you rant about. That my friend, is so sad. Yeah, I gave up my largest income I ever made ($65,000+ when I was self employed) to make $12,000 a year as a pastor. steveOrino

my best to you.

I'm not a creationist. neither do believe in a young earth theory. However, none of that dissuades me from JC's teachings. I still don't see how science will change any of the non-fundamental's belief's sysytem And the fundies? Well, not much would change their beliefs anyway. So I still say religion or belief in God is here to stay regardless of what science discovers in the future. JMHO steveOrino

You'd want your daughter to have a boyfriend whose mantra was EFS? Setting the bar for her a little low, ain't we butch? Eh, maybe I'm just an old fart. After all, I'm 52+ -- 4 growns kids, 2 granddaughters and a lovely wife for 33+ years. what the heck do I know? steveOrino