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But when a physics professor does comes forward and explains how it is not possible for it to happen that way, he doesn't know what he is talking about... For those floors to 'pancake' at FREEFALL speeds without slowing down (that means NO RESISTANCE, like they didn;t even hit each other... one after another after another - huh??) It doesn't make sense. Cutting charges could do this however, and they would leave pockets of molten steel too. And it would cause the buildings to fall into their footprint too! But they want us to beleive a kerosene fire is capable of all of it. and B7 too? come on, please.. Have any of you watched the videos of them building these buildings?? They specifically mentioned how they were designed to withstand this. steel columns MADE IN A BLAST FURNACE, weakened enough from a jet fuel fire to allow this collapse? (all they had to do was weaken, to allow free fall speed during the collapes???) Again I have trouble with that... Have any of you seen the videos of the steel skyscraper in Spain burning for over 20 hours?? Still standing and it looked ALOT hotter to me than the WTC buildings did. Anyone that burns stuff knows that heavy smoke is a sure sign of an oxygen starved fire. Blow on it a bit, the flames will leap up and the smoke almost stops comparitively. Sure there were flames at WTC, but there was ALOT more smoke than flames, and just not that much in there to burn, making sense for an oxygen starved fire... As entertaining as folks may find us tinfoil hatters, believe me, we are equally as stunned and entertained by your ability to continue to deny it all, time and time again, even as the truth wacks you in the face over and over...

heres the link http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html Regarding the air defence breakdown, when the heck at any other time have the fighter jets failed to respond in less than 15 minutes to some errant plane over restricted Whitehouse or Pentagon airspace??? Especially since it was known hijacked planes were in the air. If that is not a complete and total breakdown of air defense, then what would you consider it?? Oh that's right... it was a series of unfortunate coincenental events led by some terrorist (ex-CIA op) that coordinated all this from a cave... please You failed to address any of my other items... does that mean you concede them?

sheesh, makes my head hurt. to many of those squiggly things...

All this 'evidence' sure seems odd if a person just sits down and thinks about it. Anyone who has delt with kids should easily recognize the quickness and ease in which this explanation of the events of 9-11 came forth, and question it on that level alone. While on the surface the official story did seem plausible (and I bought into it at first as well), it did smell a bit fishy and some things made no sense whatsoever, so I began investigating other opinions of that fateful day, and that is when I truly 'woke up' and opened my mind to other possibilities. These other possibilities made much more sense to my logical mind than the official explaninations... The fact that the govt denies it all and claims the truth seekers to be crackpots and wackos I think it is a bit of a smear job and again trying to cover something up, makes stuff smell funny you know? All they would have to of done is release some of the videos they confiscated from the hotel or the other places if they wanted to prove what they say (not now obviously, as it wouldn't help now...)

I agree with you in that he was an evil person and did evil things and deserves no sympathy, yet is faciniating the seeming double standards of our government's actions. I found another article that details the history of Iraq since the 50s and the actual rise of Saddam. Very interesting that it seems we have been in contact with him since his 20s. Has links to back it up too. http://www.juancole.com/2006/12/for-whom-bell-tolls-top-ten-ways-us.html

Oh sure. And the loyalists called George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the rest crackpots and traitors during their day. It is all a matter of perspective. Anyone that questions our leadership nowadays or thinks outside of the idiot box (or the propaganda that spews from it) is labeled a crackpot or 'against us' or a traitor to some degree. Just because I don't jump up and support mass murder and transfer of more and more property and wealth to the bastards running this train wreck of a government doesn't make me a crackpot, but anyone is welcome to think whatever they want. That IS what founded this country, much to the dislike of the elite of that day.... Any creature born in captivity thinks of nothing outside of the cage. Not capable cuz hes never been outside. They can even be taught to fear being outside...

Not sure that conclusion is drawn from profit and delay of investigation. Add more 'coincidences' and things look worse- - rumored Bin laden family members flown out shortly after 9-11 occurred, immediately after the flight ban was lifted - remember that? - Complete and totally unprecented breakdown of our air defence system, and they tell us it due to drills? 3000 people died and no one got as much as a reprimand for this intelligence failure?? - Bin laden suddenly becoming a non-concern of Bush2 after the invasion of Afganistan was complete, and the new 'intelligence' linking Saddam to 9-11 and AQ surfaced, thus beginning the media dropping these rumored links and supposed statements from Saddam, EXACTLY the same way they are painting Iran RIGHT NOW!!! Chavez too- - finding the pristine passport on top of the rubble (came out unscathed from the exploding plane - the explaination of most of the plane debris 'burned up' at the pentagon - their explaination regarding bldg 7 collapse and PBS evidence that silverstien TOLD THEM to 'pull' the building. The amount of time to plan and execute something like that is certainly not in minutes or even hours. With so many wierd events happening all at the same time, add to it these guys shucking and jiving their way through ruining millions of lives with their incorrect and ill advised decisions- doesn't that throw it all of their explanations into question for any logical thinking person?? I only blame Bush2 because he is suppose to be our leader. It goes much deeper than that him and has been that way for a long long time. Our government has become what the Founding Fathers tried to protect us against- Thomas Jefferson George Washington Add to this the fact that Bush2's grandpa was under investigation during ww2 for dealing with the nazi's and other Bushes were involved in those S&L scandals and others, yet everyone of them seem to come out clean as a whistle? More strange coincidences I suppose...

Easiest way to figure it out is to figure out who profited right? Al Qieda didn't profit, nor did Osama. Saddam didn't either. If we figure out where the money has gone since that fateful day, we will find the culprits. Bad part is, the 'official' investigation didn't even begin until almost 1 year AFTER the crime was committed. AND the prez FLATLY refused for that year to begin one AND when he finally gave in to demands for an investigation, he hand picked a bunch of 'investigators' who had serious conflicts of interest. Don't any of you remember wondering to yourself why was bush2 refusing to answer the calls for an investigation? Or at least that it didn't make any sense to not?

You cant outsource McDs jobs, landscaping, gutter cleaning, or any other low wage general labor/service jobs. But you can import cheap labor to keep the damn locals in line... This gives the large corps the ways to fight unions at the local level (for the corps that haven't went overseas yet or not able- food processing, large const, etc), and force the small businessman to either cut his own throat, hire cheaper labor or close their doors not able to compete.

So you need cheap labor over there too? Makes sense from a corporate standpoint... Cheaper labor = increased profits

Anyone who is willing to become the property of the govt and willing to follow orders whatever they may be is a courageous soul and I commend them. If this makes someone a coward for not being able to do what they do, then so be it. I wouldn't be a cop either... But if our men and women are being lied to in some way, to get them to move in a certain direction, then what? Aren't occupying forces violating some kind of treaties daily by using DU (nuclear waste) weapons?? Our own treaties?? Morals??? Waht about the prisoners in Cuba? Being held for YEARS, without charge or anything. Does this violate the Geneva Convention regarding prisoner treatment??? Or did the prez claim they aren't POWs, so those rules don't apply?? Whose enemy was Iraq anyway, I mean before they stopped following orders? Iraq certainly wasn't any threat to anyone living in the US at the time of either US invasion... But they were made out to be our enemy in our popular media, to support the planned invasions. Even after all pretexts to our latest invasion were discovered to be lies, we have 'stayed the course'. That is certainly not the troops fault, but they are forced to deal with the concequences of a bumbling fool and his handlers. Our preisdent is a walking disaster, from his cowardly military duty to pathetic academic record to driving multiple companies into the ground through gross mismanagement to multiple brushes with the law, etc etc ad nauseum... I am proud of being an American as well. it is unfortunate however international corporations and foriegn countries control our American Government and not the Americans...

As long as his family and friends are in control of OUR government, we will all get screwed.

But SH became our little 'puppet' in that region, and the crimes he has now been executed for were committed with our approval and weapons we provided. Did you forget that Cheney, Rummy and Bush rose to power during Ford admin, and they have been the architects of the magnificent military machine we have now. So we didn't create him, but we did 'allow' him to do what he wanted unfettered, as long as he followed orders. Which is our foriegn policy right?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article2112555.ece By Robert Fisk Published: 30 December 2006 Saddam to the gallows. It was an easy equation. Who could be more deserving of that last walk to the scaffold - that crack of the neck at the end of a rope - than the Beast of Baghdad, the Hitler of the Tigris, the man who murdered untold hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis while spraying chemical weapons over his enemies? Our masters will tell us in a few hours that it is a "great day" for Iraqis and will hope that the Muslim world will forget that his death sentence was signed - by the Iraqi "government", but on behalf of the Americans - on the very eve of the Eid al-Adha, the Feast of the Sacrifice, the moment of greatest forgiveness in the Arab world. But history will record that the Arabs and other Muslims and, indeed, many millions in the West, will ask another question this weekend, a question that will not be posed in other Western newspapers because it is not the narrative laid down for us by our presidents and prime ministers - what about the other guilty men? No, Tony Blair is not Saddam. We don't gas our enemies. George W Bush is not Saddam. He didn't invade Iran or Kuwait. He only invaded Iraq. But hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians are dead - and thousands of Western troops are dead - because Messrs Bush and Blair and the Spanish Prime Minister and the Italian Prime Minister and the Australian Prime Minister went to war in 2003 on a potage of lies and mendacity and, given the weapons we used, with great brutality. In the aftermath of the international crimes against humanity of 2001 we have tortured, we have murdered, we have brutalised and killed the innocent - we have even added our shame at Abu Ghraib to Saddam's shame at Abu Ghraib - and yet we are supposed to forget these terrible crimes as we applaud the swinging corpse of the dictator we created. Who encouraged Saddam to invade Iran in 1980, which was the greatest war crime he has committed for it led to the deaths of a million and a half souls? And who sold him the components for the chemical weapons with which he drenched Iran and the Kurds? We did. No wonder the Americans, who controlled Saddam's weird trial, forbad any mention of this, his most obscene atrocity, in the charges against him. Could he not have been handed over to the Iranians for sentencing for this massive war crime? Of course not. Because that would also expose our culpability. And the mass killings we perpetrated in 2003 with our depleted uranium shells and our "bunker buster" bombs and our phosphorous, the murderous post-invasion sieges of Fallujah and Najaf, the hell-disaster of anarchy we unleashed on the Iraqi population in the aftermath of our "victory" - our "mission accomplished" - who will be found guilty of this? Such expiation as we might expect will come, no doubt, in the self-serving memoirs of Blair and Bush, written in comfortable and wealthy retirement. Hours before Saddam's death sentence, his family - his first wife, Sajida, and Saddam's daughter and their other relatives - had given up hope. "Whatever could be done has been done - we can only wait for time to take its course," one of them said last night. But Saddam knew, and had already announced his own "martyrdom": he was still the president of Iraq and he would die for Iraq. All condemned men face a decision: to die with a last, grovelling plea for mercy or to die with whatever dignity they can wrap around themselves in their last hours on earth. His last trial appearance - that wan smile that spread over the mass-murderer's face - showed us which path Saddam intended to walk to the noose. I have catalogued his monstrous crimes over the years. I have talked to the Kurdish survivors of Halabja and the Shia who rose up against the dictator at our request in 1991 and who were betrayed by us - and whose comrades, in their tens of thousands, along with their wives, were hanged like thrushes by Saddam's executioners. I have walked round the execution chamber of Abu Ghraib - only months, it later transpired, after we had been using the same prison for a few tortures and killings of our own - and I have watched Iraqis pull thousands of their dead relatives from the mass graves of Hilla. One of them has a newly-inserted artificial hip and a medical identification number on his arm. He had been taken directly from hospital to his place of execution. Like Donald Rumsfeld, I have even shaken the dictator's soft, damp hand. Yet the old war criminal finished his days in power writing romantic novels. It was my colleague, Tom Friedman - now a messianic columnist for The New York Times - who perfectly caught Saddam's character just before the 2003 invasion: Saddam was, he wrote, "part Don Corleone, part Donald Duck". And, in this unique definition, Friedman caught the horror of all dictators; their sadistic attraction and the grotesque, unbelievable nature of their barbarity. But that is not how the Arab world will see him. At first, those who suffered from Saddam's cruelty will welcome his execution. Hundreds wanted to pull the hangman's lever. So will many other Kurds and Shia outside Iraq welcome his end. But they - and millions of other Muslims - will remember how he was informed of his death sentence at the dawn of the Eid al-Adha feast, which recalls the would-be sacrifice by Abraham, of his son, a commemoration which even the ghastly Saddam cynically used to celebrate by releasing prisoners from his jails. "Handed over to the Iraqi authorities," he may have been before his death. But his execution will go down - correctly - as an American affair and time will add its false but lasting gloss to all this - that the West destroyed an Arab leader who no longer obeyed his orders from Washington, that, for all his wrongdoing (and this will be the terrible get-out for Arab historians, this shaving away of his crimes) Saddam died a "martyr" to the will of the new "Crusaders". When he was captured in November of 2003, the insurgency against American troops increased in ferocity. After his death, it will redouble in intensity again. Freed from the remotest possibility of Saddam's return by his execution, the West's enemies in Iraq have no reason to fear the return of his Baathist regime. Osama bin Laden will certainly rejoice, along with Bush and Blair. And there's a thought. So many crimes avenged. But we will have got away with it.

Screw all the corporate whores. dems and repubs are all the same- their votes go to the highest bidder... Karl B Schwarz for President in 2008 His platform makes sense- http://www.karlschwarz.com/SchwarzPlatformRev.pdf And I especially like his recent essay which this title comes from http://www.govcov.com/karlschwarzarticles/weneed_123006.html I would post it but it is quite lengthy, but would still love to hear your comments on the many many truths it contains.

Not sure if the attitude in here regarding 9-11 has changed much since my last topic on this, but here is some interesting article for you to mull over. Certainly explains the health problems of the workers of GZ, and lack of attention to it. But that would indicate a conspiricy of some sort, and I know how you guys like tin foil hats! http://www.fourwinds10.com/NewsServer/ArticleFunctions/ArticleDetails.php?ArticleID=10744 Date Published: 2006-09-06 You’ve got to be lucky to make $4 Billion killing on a 6-month investment of $124 Million Larry Silverstein is the New York property tycoon who purchased the entire WTC complex just 6 months prior to the 9/11 attacks. That was the first time in its 33-year history the complex had EVER changed ownership. Mr. Silverstein’s first order of business as the new owner was to change the company responsible for the security of the complex. The new security company he hired was Securacom (now Stratasec). George W. Bush's brother, Marvin Bush, was on its board of directors, and Marvin’s cousin, Wirt Walker III, was its CEO. According to public records, not only did Securacom provide electronic security for the World Trade Center, it also covered Dulles International Airport and United Airlines — two key players in the 9/11 attacks. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for many years to the Bush family. KuwAm has been linked to the Bush family financially since the Gulf War. One of its principals and a member of the Kuwaiti royal family, Mishal Yousef Saud al Sabah, served on the board of Stratesec. Now, consider: The members of a small cabal owned the WTC complex, controlled its electronic security, and also controlled the security not only for one of the airlines whose aircraft were hijacked on 9/11, but the airport from which they originated. Another little “coincidence” -- Mr. Silversten, who made a down-payment of $124 million on this $3.2 billion complex, promptly insured it for $7 Billion. Not only that, he covered the complex against “terrorist attacks”. Following the attacks, Silverstein filed TWO insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy ($7B), based on the two -- in Silverstein's view -- separate attacks. The insurance company, Swiss Re, paid Mr. Silverstein $4.6 Billion — a princely return on a relatively paltry investment of $124 million. There’s more. You see, the World Trade Towers were not the real estate plum we are led to believe. From an economic standpoint, the trade center -- subsidized since its inception by the NY Port Authority -- has never functioned, nor was it intended to function, unprotected in the rough-and-tumble real estate marketplace. How could Silverstein Group have been ignorant of this? The towers required some $200 million in renovations and improvements, most of which related to removal and replacement of building materials declared to be health hazards in the years since the towers were built. It was well-known by the city of New York that the WTC was an asbestos bombshell. For years, the Port Authority treated the building like an aging dinosaur, attempting on several occasions to get permits to demolish the building for liability reasons, but being turned down due the known asbestos problem. Further, it was well-known the only reason the building was still standing until 9/11 was because it was too costly to disassemble the twin towers floor by floor since the Port Authority was prohibited legally from demolishing the buildings. The projected cost to disassemble the towers: $15 Billion. Just the scaffolding for the operation was estimated at $2.4 Billion! In other words, the Twin Towers were condemned structures. How convenient that an unexpected “terrorist” attack demolished the buildings completely. WTC Building 7 was a part of the WTC complex, and covered under the same insurance policy. This 47-storey steel-framed structure, which was NOT struck by an aircraft, mysteriously collapsed 8 hours later that same day into its own footprint at freefall speed — exactly in the manner of the Twin Towers. How could this have happened? Mr. Silverstein gave the world the answer when he slipped up during a PBS television interview a year later, on 9/11/2002: "I remember getting a call from the...er...fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse." As anyone who knows anything about construction can tell you, “Pull” is common industry jargon for a controlled demolition. One thing is for sure, the decision to 'pull' WTC 7 would have delighted many people. Especially because it has been reported that thousands of sensitive files relating to some of the biggest financial scams in history — including Enron and WorldCom -- were stored in the offices of some of the building’s tenants: US Secret Service NSA CIA IRS BATF SEC NAIC Securities Salomon Smith Barney American Express Bank International Standard Chartered Bank Provident Financial Management ITT Hartford Insurance Group Federal Home Loan Bank The Securities and Exchange Commission has not quantified the number of active cases in which substantial files were destroyed by the collapse of WTC 7. Reuters news service and the Los Angeles Times published reports estimating them at 3,000 to 4,000. They include the agency's major inquiry into the manner in which investment banks divvied up hot shares of initial public offerings during the high-tech boom. ..."Ongoing investigations at the New York SEC will be dramatically affected because so much of their work is paper-intensive," said Max Berger of New York's Bernstein Litowitz Berger & Grossmann. "This is a disaster for these cases." Citigroup says some information that the committee is seeking [about WorldCom] was destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attack on the World Trade Center. Salomon had offices in 7 World Trade Center. The bank says that back-up tapes of corporate emails from September 1998 through December 2000 were stored at the building and destroyed in the attack. Inside WTC 7 was the US Secret Service's largest field office with more than 200 employees. "All the evidence that we stored at 7 World Trade, in all our cases, went down with the building," according to US Secret Service Special Agent David Curran. What a neat, complete, and fortuitous turn of events was 9/11. Incidentally, it’s worth noting that one of Lucky Larry’s closest friends — a person with whom it’s said he speaks almost daily by phone — is none other than former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. More on that cozy little relationship later..

Well, growing up in the US doesn't seem to offer much Middle East history. Especially not that part of the history. WWII was however a very large part of history though. Especially that 6 million number. sad Watching that made me remember when I first read/heard about the Cherokee Trail of Tears in school. It really bothered me at the time, I just couldn't understand how anyone could do that to another people. But then I grew up, and realized life really revolves around the dollar for some folks, and those folks will do almost anything to get a dollar.

If your still aroung this thread John, check out the video link I just posted and tell me again about the scores of innocent people... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2401947 I just have a strange feeling he wont be back in here...

A long video, but very enlightening. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=341600202419569830&hl=en

sorry, caught me during changing my mind.

Where did all the Palestinian refugees come from? I thought these were the people who were displaced when Israel was created? Could I become a citizen as an Anglo/Saxon Christian in Israel?

This doesn't mean 'faithful to UN Resolutions' does it?

Thanks for addressing those items for me. I obviously have never been there, and read alot, so that helps. I have another item that I have heard, so if you know of this- Is there truth to Palestinians who are living in Isreal not being considered 'full citizens' of Israel because they are not Jewish? Are there different types of 'citizens' defined by Israel law? If so, do full citizens have rights not afforded to other citizens?

Just goes to show how ADD is not limited to children...

A very interesting perspective from someone who was born and lived there, and chosen to think outside the box. http://www.geocities.com/schossen/wethepeople.htm