jenfly00

http://tx-fj.ieasysite.com/fallschirmjager_028.htm On February 27, 1933, The Reichstag, seat of parliamentary government in Germany caught fire. Göring, the Prussian minister, accused the communists of setting the fire. In actuality, the SS set fire to the building and Hitler used this event to his means and his own party ‘brown shirts (SA)’ began to arrest over 4000 local communists the following day. A Dutchman, Marinus van der Lubbe, was falsely arrested and executed for setting the blaze. President Hindenburg, then 86, was sure the country would fall into a communist revolution. Hitler forced Hindenburg to sign into law martial law an emergency decree restricting the rights of its citizens and the right to execute and imprison ‘traitors’ against Germany. The emergency decree called “for the Protection of the People and the State” was the ‘standing order’ to the workings of the Third Reich. The decree was described as a “defensive measure against Communist acts of violence endangering the state.” Hitler’s restrictions led to a National Socialism and ‘new world order’ that effectively led to executions without trial, arrest on suspicion and the horrors of the concentration camps that would not end until the its liberation in 1945. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Yup, that about covers it. I can't believe a girl posted this. Respect. It's a quote from Mission Impossible 2. I believe the women who do this are insecure. Cheating becomes somehow acceptable rather than face the horror of spending time alone. I'll leave you with my second favorite quote about women from that movie: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ethan Hunt: She's got no training for this. Mission Commander Swanbeck: What? To go to bed with a man and lie to him? She's a woman. She's got all the training she needs.

"You know women, mate. Like monkeys, they are - won't let go of one branch until they've got hold of the next." jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Just showing arousal. I'm guessing you don't see that much. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

So, if I disagree with you, it's because my judgment is clouded. If I agree with you, does that make me objective and fair? Maybe my experience in matters of this nature gives me a better understanding of what actually happens and what is or is not possible. Just a thought. A mother's knowledge and expertise does not make her an objective judge on the beauty and intelligence of her children. I find myself in the position disagreeing with mom's assessment. I'll reconstruct your post and maybe you can explain what you meant better. This seems to imply that you don't believe my comment that a neighbor was involved in the shooting. This seems to imply that you believe the neighbor story was added for someone's convenience? I'm not sure what the 2 1/2 hour time frame has to do with any of this. If you weren't questioning my integrity, please explain what you meant. BTW, it doesn't seem strange. Yes, it does strike me as convenient. Perhaps it's true. Neither of us knows. The police had 2 1/2 hours to secure the area. By the police account, they did not. Even if true, the massive response is unacceptable. Surely you can see this. Perhaps one of the things to be reviewed is the manner in which SWAT secures the surrounding area. This loyal dog is eagerly awaiting your response. Your loyalty to your unit and SWAT in general is admirable. If I were you, I might also see an Indian attack and circle the wagons. It would, however, call into doubt my ability to objectively view the situation. What I see as a viable review is looking into procedures, decision making and command structure. As I said, I'm not trying to hang anyone here. I would like to prevent such an unacceptable result in the future. Yes, loyal dog, it was unacceptable. jen "It is hard to believe that a man is telling the truth when you know that you would lie if you were in his place." -H. L. Mencken ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Try this http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/12/national/main708355_page2.shtml An excerpt How about we not make this personal, OK? I know the type and quality of people that are on large SWAT teams and I base my judgement on that. Also, I've seen nothing confirming that 100 rounds were fired but I haven't started questioning your integrity. Where did you come up with this decision cycle? The decision cycle was yours. You said they started firing when a neighbor was threatened ...so they unleashed a shit storm. I made no comment concerning your integrity. Your loyalty is admirable, to an extent. It does, however, reinforce the historic problem with police review of such incidents. We all have situations where our emotions, feelings of loyalty, etc cloud our judgment. Dude, 100 rounds (your referenced article says 300 but that was from the childs mother who watched her baby's head disintegrate so I figure she might be a little too emotionally involved to be fair. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

When faced with deadly force, a police officer is allowed to use deadly force until the threat is eliminated. Unless they were shooting after he dropped the gun and was lying on the ground it was reasonable. People don't drop immediately after they are shot. In fact, most people I have talked to who have been shot described it as feeling like a bee sting. It takes about a minute for someone to succumb to loss of blood even if they are shot directly in the heart. They can still do a lot of damage during that minute./reply] I've been searching the net for facts about this event. The neighbor in harms way has never been mentioned. Combine that with the fact that SWAT had control of the area for 2 1/2 hrs, does it seem strange (convenient?) to you that a neighbor is suddenly in harms way? A neighbor might be harmed so you pump 100 rounds into the area and say fuck the kid?!?!? What kind of professional makes this decision? The fact that you try and justify it speaks well of your loyalty, but little else. My best guess, massive over-reaction with a convenient fiction about a neighbor. I still say rather than try and hang the shooters, tactics, philosophy in hostage situations and command structure shoud be reviewed. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I'm a current SWAT sniper on a SWAT team in a large city. According to my information, this guy was firing at an unarmed neighber when the police returned fire. The police were trying to get the neighbor out of harms way when the suspect started shooting. One of the police officers was wounded by the suspect. There was no chance to wait him out, seek cover, determine who was going to shoot and who was not in order to limit the number of rounds, or any of the other scenarios that people have submitted. The death of this child lies solely with the idiot father who decided to use her as a shield. My job description does not entail being a willing target for some idiot hell bent on getting himself killed. If you want that job, go for it. Quit expecting others to do it for you. BTW, when you are getting shot at, you are out of time. I pretty much agree with you but see your bias. The firing on a neighbor would flip the decision switch for me (at a bare minimum, it would be my official version :). From what I have read, an officer was shot through a wall, the gunman was inside. I'd very much like the officers to be cleared, but the emphasis is a bit wrong for me. Rather than focus on who shot who and whether firing on the gunman was a reasonable response (at that point, I'd have to go along with a precise, professional response from those trained to do the job). I'd like to examine procedures (my brother informs me, his dept is in the process) to contain while minimizing confrontation. Not making a call on the specifics of this case (we don't know them) but I think there is much to be gained from the examination of the procedures involved. Dude, I'd support major grant money to look into any alternatives to interventions that end up with a dead kid. As a SWAT officer, what do you think of the 100 rounds fired in response? Could that possibly be a reasonable response to what we know of this situation. Could a clearer plan and unvaraying command structure have prevented such a massive response? jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

And how would you have handled the situation differently? Dude! The LAPD fired more than 100 rounds into the room!!!! This isn't a question of a sniper being just a hair off on aim, this was undisiplined behavior by professionals out of control. What to do differently? De-escalate? Back off the confrontation and defuse? Did the police force the situation unnecessarily? I don't know. I do know that people tend to use the tools they have. Just because you have a hammer doesn't mean that's the best tool for the job. OK, things got hot. Perhaps the father took it there, perhaps the police did. Dad was not a professional trained to handle these situations, the police are. An innocent girls life depended on them. The standoff lasted 180 minutes. Were the police truly out of time and options? If so, then yes, then taking down the bad guy was justified. Multiple officers freaking out and firing dozens of rounds rounds is pretty hard to justify, however. The gunman/father shot a police officer through the wall, the police returned fire ...through the wall. I repeat, multiple officers firing (some blindly) over 100 rounds. My brother is a Sgt. on a SWAT team in a a large city. He's always told me ...SWAT wants to go in! It's their job, their training and their mentality. Sometimes that's what needs to be done but it's hard to imagine officers firing 100 rounds into the room as acceptable professional behavior. Can you imagine any reasonable circumstance here that would justify such an action? How would you have handled the situation differently? Kill em all and let God sort em out sounds a bit over the top here. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Certainly we all agree that the outcome was tragic. I just don't have it in me to judge someone who's day-in-day-out job is to be ready to go into that kind of situation and put their own lives on the line, knowing that if things go bad, the microscope will be on them. This is not a "holier than thou" thing. I'm not criticizing anyone else for their comments. I can somewhat understand where the outrage is coming from. I just really feel for those guys and would rather let them police their own ranks in this situation. Walt I'm not outraged. I, also, feel really bad for them. I'm skeptical of police review (in L.A.!!) but they don't deserve to be hanged in public either. They are professionals who fucked up. It happens. When it happens, the situation should be studied to improve procedures. If individual errors were sufficiently grevious, heads should roll. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Would you blame the patient for being sick when the surgeon slices through the carotid artery? The responsibility lies with the professionals who fucked up in the performance of their duties in a difficult situation. jen That's a pretty harsh comparison. The surgeon is normally in a much more controlled environment. I'm sure those police officers were *desperately* trying to save that girl's life and trying to keep from getting killed in the process. Walt I'm certain they were and my heart goes out to them, also. They did, however, fuck up. Like the surgeon in his/her environment, they are responsible for a certain threshold level of competence and performance in theirs. Can we agree that killing the kid fell below even a minimal threshold of acceptable behavior? I'm not saying he/she/they are bad people or that we should heap disproportionate consequences upon them, but they are responsible for their actions and they are responsible for the results. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Would you blame the patient for being sick when the surgeon slices through the carotid artery? The responsibility lies with the professionals who fucked up in the performance of their duties in a difficult situation. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Uh, huh! Because he doesn't cave in to Democrats attempts to jump start his Lame Duck Presidency, he's bullheaded. Um, I don't care what the politics are - but when you put a man that is that controversial in a spot to represent us to the world? I'm not sure bullheaded is a strong enough word. This is just another step by Bush to make this country into an island. He's got neocons around the country trance stepping around the fire, pounding the ground with their clubs and screaming for more ...he's giving 'em more. A man of the people. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Please do try and stay on topic, gringito. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I like them just fine as they are. No (or rare) plucking here. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I bought some small, desk top flags. I burned one for you (got seven left). It's a small way of protesting those who call themselves patriots yet, cannot see the irony of calling for acts of violence against Americans for exercising free speech. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

With respect, when you call for the use of "baseball bats, some rabid dogs, and some salt" as object lessons ...you are pretty much setting up definitions and parameters of what freedom is ...or isn't. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

P.S. Do you even understand the concept of freedom? Your posts suggest otherwise. With respect, You don't know me well enough to make such a bold statement. Let's see if you can understand this concept? My grandfather was a World War 2 veteran and Purple Heart recipient. My uncle is a retired one star and Vietnam Veteran. My father ir a retired Full Bird who treated many vets returning home wounded from Vietnam. My brother just finished his four tour. And I, after the first of the coming year, will be headed for the Marines. So I think myself as well as my family are quite well aware of the concept of Freedom!!!! Let's see if your next post suggests that you understand that? Your desire for a structured, rigid, institutional environment gives you and your family a right to define freedom for the rest of the country? I don't think so. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Serves the little punk ass right....... P.S. He is a little shit and should be delt with accordingly. (this would include baseball bats, some rabid dogs, and some salt) This flag's for you, gringito. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

damn...welcome to drama class. if i had to choose one word to describe that description of a possible future it would be "excessive", even from a liberal standpoint. do you really believe that your free speech is gone? do you really believe that mandatory prayer in school will happen? i assume you were just being overly dramatic. Do the neocons in the US today, envision the end of free speech and the effective end of freedom in the US? Who knows? Do you think German citizens, all caught up in the fervor or nationalism, envisioned the slaughter of millions of undesirables? Like most catastrophic events, the best time for intervention is early in the curve. Once you hit the ground, it's pretty much too late, don't you think? jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

I want a Noah Calhoun. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Students are exempt from beer rules. Don't let anyone tell you different. After student status, buy soda or gatorade. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Lots. Vancouver is a very nice town BTW. Been there? If not, how do you get your "pissant town" reference? Thread title: Vancouver, WA Mayor Feeling "Less Than" It was an attempt at humor. jen ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

It does??? Where? Just the fact that it exists suggests they are somehow "equivalent". Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of GWB, but Bin Laden isn't a world leader either ... They share that. ----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it".

Free speech, ain't it grand!