BDashe

this post of yours as well as this statement from the other guy: "They have a drive to have a bigger salary, house, island and jet than their competitor. They are not focussed on the company, they are focussed on what is in it for them." Are just plain wrong. You're regurgitating what the media feeds you about the outliers on the bad end of the bell curve. That may be true for the Enron guys of the world, but as is true with 98% of media- negative press sells. that the other 95% of execs are doing is trying their d*mndest to better their company, the money comes along with it. Both your statements make it very clear you two have no clue what you're talking about when it comes to senior executives and their M.O. Keep buying into obama's thinly vailed anti-capitalist propaganda. Change will happen, and it ain't gonna be good. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

Cite your source please. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

Most of them have something which obviously distinguishes them from others. GWB was born into a family with money and power. Most athletes are, in fact, gifted physically. Significantly so. Many are also gifted with discipline. Most entertainers are, in fact, gifted in one way or another. No one watches me act or sing. Everyone has stuff that makes them unique. Some of those things are easier to exploit than others. Life isn't fair. Saying that it is doesn't make it so. People with more talent, intelligence, whatever, generally get ahead. If their family has money or power, they really don't need either. If they have that talent, but are in the wrong place at the wrong time, it probably doesn't matter. I don't feel any sorrier for the rich, talented guy paying more than I do for the poor, untalented guy paying less. Wendy W. Gifted with discipline? seriously? cmon... So you fail every test but because youre not gifted with discipline you pass the course? That book I mentioned actually touches on all of what you mention- timing, luck, natural talents... but MOST importantly HARD WORK. It's a great read, especially if you liked his other books

I wont disagree that the rich guy should and can pay more, however I think what the dems always propose is RIDICULOUS, it is bullsh*t for anyone to lose more than half their income to the government, especially on BS programs. I also dont think hand outs should be given unless absolutely necessary- like to that poor bastard that had the F-18 crash into his house in San Diego and lost his house and family. You all should read this book. Basically, if you put 10,000 hours of work into something you're bound to make it big if you want to. At that point you have the experience to be the best in your industry: Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell (The Tipping Point, and Blink) brief synopsis in his words: http://www.rd.com/your-america-inspiring-people-and-stories/malcolm-gladwell-on-outliers-the-story-of-success/article104648.html So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

So you are saying if you are born stupid or lazy, you have earned hand outs from the government which comes directly from the highly motivated? I'm not sure if I'm letting you guys in on this little secret... but you don't have to be very bright to make it in this country!!! Look at GWB, and especially in the music and entertainment industry! You don't have to go to princeton in order to be a CEO, all you need is motivation which is exactly what milton has. He just worked REALLY REALLY hard and studied REALLY REALLY hard. It isnt like he woke up one day and said, hmmm I think im smarter than everyone so i'll be a doctor today. he just busted his @$$ since he was young, that's all it takes. being lazy or complacent doesn't pay big bucks, and shouldn't be rewarded with money that someone else earned. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

You understand me better then the rest i guess, and a difference of opinion is just fine by me. So I'm more than settled with you on that front. As for the second paragraph, imminent domain can effect BOTH guys, and neither can blame anyone but who? The government! Location and competition are all part of our way of life, you can't make a free market socialist and still call it a free market. and as for loans and personal finances, that goes back to being financially responsible for yourself and living within your means. If you can't do that it is your own fault... or get motivated and try to get promoted or take a new job to make more money! Nothing keeps anyone down in our country other than themselves. Sure, some may have more road blocks, but with motivatioon you can beat em. example- A friend of mine, Milton, incidentally he is from a small village in Kenya near Obama's actually. Anyway, He worked HARD in school as a kid, got a scholarship to go to a secondary school in the big city- Nairobi. He worked really hard there, and was sponsored to go to i think it was Columbia University in the states- where he did very well and earned a scholarship to Vanderbilt Medical School (when I met him) and the guy is now a freaking doctor. If a guy in a tiny village in Kenya can become a doctor in the USA through one of the better medical schools in the country... then what the hell is every else's problem in this country? So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

The point of the original post was in years past, top execs didnt take huge salaries which is absolutely bogus. the fact that it was happening (justifiably so as well) during the depression as bill quoted is more proof of the poster talking out his ass. It isnt like one day magically in the 80's exec pay increased 1000 fold. it has ALWAYS been this way in the states, it's one of the reasons we are the greatest country. in the 1700s when we were born, the 1800s, 1900s, and today. So long as we want to keep capitalism alive, it'll always be that way! look at henry ford and that family through the years, the Hiltons, the marriots, even the people that created the slinky! Through every decade they've take a HUGE cut, proportionally larger back then most likely which trumps the "in the good old days 50 years ago" The shit was still going on, it is an absolutely bogus argument made out of desperation to make a point, and bill called him on it. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

Bill- got it on the warning. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123620884593433947.html Here is a quick article on the front page of wsj.com. This is exactly what i'm referring to with regards to lawsuits for the top execs. They all know this can happen when they take the job, it is a HUGE risk. The bonuses they were paid are pennies compared to what would be paid if they had steered the company in the right direction. Now, they are fodder for public scrutiny and their names are ruined no matter if what happened was ok or not. You take a top level job and you become a target- every single day. Tell me all this happens when an hourly employee is laid off... hardly! So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

40 - 50 years ago was 1958 - 1968. And I thought engineers were good at 'rithmetic. Or is it your history that sucks? semantics- he makes a good point, just not on your side for once. correct me if i'm wrong but obama was actually around 80% a few weeks ago? when the DOW was around 9K? So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

warning for which? So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

First off, I'm talking about a hypotheical CEO in the first quotation, and a dumb sh*t over spending working class american that needs the CEOs tax dollars in the second. Don't you f*cking quote me out of context to make a point jack@$$. It's very petty. Moving foreward, I have repeatedly held the same position: responsibility for your own actions. Again, you seem to be missing what i am saying. Quite honestly, I dont know how many different ways i can say it. Let me try to simplify the simplified: Youre an american who makes 50K annually after taxes. you live a life that costs you 100k annually by choice. this is unsustainable, and you lose your @$$ eventually. In my world, it's bullsh*t to ask for a handout from the government. you start over after bankruptcy and try not to repeat the same mistake while plunking along in your 50K annual world with no ambition to push farther and earn that 100K lifestyle, just to get money from the government to get you back to normal. Now, new scenario. You're a CEO. You've worked your way up in an industry and are consisered one of the most experienced in your field. You were heavily recruited and finally signed a contract that says, you try your hardest and we pay you lots of money as you are the head of this billion dollar company with 75,000 employees and you make the most of anybody because you are the head honcho making the decisions that effect everyone. It says, if you get fired, you collect full salary for 2 years, but you cant work for the competition for that 2 years. The government says, if your company does bad for any reason, the stock holders have a legal right to sue you personally. You say, 'OK, that is f*ckin scary, but I will work for you because you offered me the best deal than the other guy and i think i can win here. If i win, everybody wins, this could be great! I think I have the best shot at making this company successful.' That contract says you have a salary of 1 million dollars and you get stock options gifted to you, 100,000 shares per year. For a time things go really well, and you make all the big bucks off your options and sell some shares. Then the economy turns or you make a couple bad decisions and the company goes under. You get fired and lose the potential to make 50 million on the options that are worthless. People think you are too high a risk to hire, so not only ar eyou not allowed to get a job while collecting from your old company, but no one wants you anyway. you collect 1 million for 2 years. People sue the living sh*t out of you since you f*cked up. you lose half your worth (that has already been taxed) to legal fees, and several years of your life battling in court for trying your best. Tell me another position or job, especially in the working class, where you face that much financial and personal risk. Do you see the complexity of the latter even in a dumbed down version? This is why they get the "golden parachutes" which are actually considerably less fruitful and more time consuming and stressful than having made the right decisions- but you knew the risks going in and took em and tried your best but fell short. Oh yeah, I forgot- it is an election year and the liberals are looking for scapegoats so your name is plastered all over the news and legal slander ensues. You lost BIG, way bigger than the burger flipper who can now mow lawns for the same pay he previously had with a minimal lifestyle change, and no risk of jail time for being a f*ck up. This is why the CEOs do, in fact, deserve the door prize. They have lost WAY more than any unmotivated working class lay-off. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

I never said they were going to the poor house, i said they had much more to lose. The opportunity cost is considerably higher for the CEOs. Also, if you ever rub elbows with these guys, they have a winning mentaility. Ever wonder why that investor that lost all the $$ in the ponzi scheme killed himself? He lost, these guys can't stand to lose and genuinely want to enhance peoples' lives. They also want to get paid for it which makes sense to me. Ending what you dedicate your entire life to achieving on a bankruptcy and eliminating any chance at advisory positions on boards in the future is NOT what these guys desire. sure they get paid a lot even when they do lose, but they'd trade it in for success I guarantee you that. Unfortunately it is just a door prize compared to what they could have earned, and they shuffle into history as a loser. Moving forward- it isnt discrimination when you fail credit and background checks and can't qualify/are denied a loan. It is a lack of personal responsibility when signing for a loan you can't afford, and lack of discretion and reverse discrimination when the government pressures you to give the loan out anyway because of ethnicity or socioeconomic status. I will admit, after SOME of the banks gave in and the loans were flying with no immediate problems they got lazy and just kept signing while the idiots that couldnt afford the paper they were signing kept digging themselves deeper. Neither side deserves any help, though if i had to pick, i'd side with the banks as they are the ones that can keep the economy turning for the people that were responsible, even though they werent. No, that isnt fair but unfortunately it makes sense IF I had to choose. but again, i say f*ck em both. edit: And don't worry, I'm confident you have all the skills in the world to drive a company into the ground. Fortunately, I doubt you'll ever get the chance. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

ummmm, did you not read my post? generally when a company has to make severe cut backs the CEO gets canned. the whole concept of not being able to find a top level job? the consequences are much more severe for the CEO than the burger flipper. And falling on your face from your own stupidity of over spending and getting ear deep in debt isn't punishment, it's your own dumb fault for putting a hurtle in front of you that you knew you couldnt leap over. the balance of the universe, cause and effect, owning up to your own repsonsibility, or should the working class be able to do whatever they want and get hand outs from the government (via the wealthy) when they can't keep up with their spending habits ? I call that punishing the wealthy and financially responsible. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

No, they don't. The economy worked nicely 40 - 50 years ago when coporate execs didn't take home 1000x the income of the average employee. The justification for the huge bonuses isn't that they are needed, but that in the good times the execs could rape the company for them and no-one minded. I disagree emphatically. look at the Vanderbilt's of the past, they took even more comparitively back then! However, I can thank him for my education Seriously, that is just jealousy speaking which is what the media and dem leaders play to. If a guy builds a company to be 10X what it was, creates 1000s of jobs, and sells it for a profit, I'll be God Damned if he doesnt deserve every dime he is paid. At the same time if the same guy tries his best and falls on his face and goes home with the million dollar door prize, he still deserves it cuz he took the risk that many wouldnt and couldnt take! Like you for example, clearly youre not in a position to run a billion dollar company, or you wouldnt have this opinion based on jealousy. There is a reason why the pay grade increase as you get PROMOTED. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

No, I will concede that clinton pushed for subrime loans, and eventually when that didnt hurt right away that it did became predatory. I will also concede that the idiot american racking up huge amounts of debt is AT LEAST equally to blame. I take the same approach to both- f*ck em. dont bail em out, let it right itself. be homeless, or get motivated to fix your spending habits and downsize even if it means becoming a pizza delivery guy. as for the companies, make the cuts you have to to survive and in a few years you'll be up and running and everyone wins because they pulled themselves out as we are supposed to. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

Youre making my point actually. I will absolutely NOT deny that there are outliers, Bush potentially being one of em! As is true for anything you can put a bell curve to. Unfortunately the liberals and media latch on to the outliers, when in fact the vast majority are doing really good things and absolutely earn the big bonuses. moving even a step further, sometimes good people at the top can't do anything to stop bad things from happening with really bad economic downturns as is happening now. That said, there still are a few bad eggs that ruin it for everyone, and the bad ones are what sells in the news world, as well as for people pushing policy against that class of person. No, Obama can't be blamed for the economy... yet. Us fiscal conservatives just can't wait to tell you 'I told ya so' in a few years when it gets worse, doesnt recover, barely recovers, or that we cant wash our hands of 4 trillion in debt as easily as obama makes it seem. That, i still think, will be the biggest magic trick of all. I could see the economy coming back by punishing the wealthy (just not as strong or as fair or fast as if our route was taken), i just dont see the deficit at 500 billion so soon after it spikes to 4 trillion. If that actually happens, I'll be the first to shove a huge blue liberal dildo up my @$$. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

Good for them! Most of em earned it! The ones the media glorify to make wealthy job-creators appear so evil don't, but the majority do, props! Your definition of "earn" does not correspond with reality. Your reality is much diffrent from my reality sir. My reality is based on how big business operates in a free market. Get some experience at the top and then come talk to me. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

I edited my last response so read that. but basically board's write in clauses to attract who they feel are the best candidates. most of the time it works out and everyone wins. When it doesn't the exec that didn't do so hot still wins a little bit, but not near what he could have potentially raked in. additionally he now has a bad reputation and will have a real tough time finding a new job- the beauty of capitalism. They get a small amount of security for taking on a HUGE risk, the risk can pay off 10s of millions versus a door prize of a couple. when you work hard enough to get that high in a company, walking away with a couple million and never working again is really really bad... especially when you factor that the government ends up with about 1.1 million of that 2 million in taxes... so the great obama still wins. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

Good for them! Most of em earned it! The ones the media glorify to make wealthy job-creators appear so evil don't, but the majority do, props! edit: "Scott free" in this case is also known as completely legal and just based on contracts signed years ago to attract what the board of various companies thought were the best candidates. I'll restate my sports analogy: do you pay the best prospects the worst salary? elway, deon sanders, emmit smith? most of the time it works out, although sometimes is doesn't, i.e. Ricky Williams. Ricky williams still made millions, but he could have madea sh*tload more if he lived up to his potential. the same is true for CEOs and top execs... So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/03/04/sudan.president.darfur.charges/index.html Same old politcal BS. Out of Clinton's how-to book on moral foreign policy. 'You've been bad, so we're gonna arrest you! ...that is if you land in one of the countries that also thinks you're bad, so you better not land there! And we're not sure if it is genocide, we need to do more research and determine if killing 300,000+ of your own people constitutes genocide at which point we'll go through a few procedures and eventually take a vote that could go either way to see if we really feel like going into your country and f*cking your world up and stopping the murder, rape, and pillaging; but by then any rebel groups will have probably righted the situation temporarily at which point our whole process will start over when things begin to swing south again... anyway in the mean time we think you've been really really bad! So there!' So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

Secrets from the enemy and secrets from allies are slightly different. +1 Don't forget though, liberals have no enemies! Other than the wealthy of course... they can fix any problem with a tax, law, or hug! When faced with a challenge, all you have to do is believe and then... and then... YES YOU CAN! So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

NNNNNNNNNNEEEEERRRRRRDDDDDDSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

I vote ASC! Still much love for the farm dont get me wrong, but um... no van ride, A/C in the packing area, cool people, they have "the coolest DZM ever" (J.M.), and if you're lucky I might even be there! he he he... What up ATL, how's the snow? Rain is falling in nor cal but the tunnel blades are still turning!!! So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

Also, strictly for safety reasons and the benefit of your health, I would opt for 12' and 16' tunnels over the foot wide ones... otherwise be sure to bring LOTS of lube. other than that, listen to what everyone else said, he he he... So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983

I'm not a huge proponent of the iraq situation, but just making a point. and um, yeah it was the dems that opted NOT to go in there and stop it. The place is a mess. Recovering finally but still a mess. My point was im not a fan of being world police but it is necessary and always a catch 22 situation- people b*tch if you don't go in, people b*tch when you do go in. Policy doesn't work with guerillas, look at all the efforts over the years with the FARC in columbia. Force does, but people don't like to see the devastation so then they start crying to stop after they had just been crying we werent helping to begin with. Yeah it is really sad about the gorillas. I didn't have enough $$$ in my budget while hitting east africa to do the gorillas, I'm hoping to get it done in the next couple years though along with Kilimanjaro. Was $400 a few years ago, i think it is higher now. kayak.com is great for airfare abroad. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983