Michele

I don't understand. Doesn't a man have as much right as to what happens to his body as I do? Doesn't he get to choose what he wants? Are you saying that a woman has more rights to their body than a man does? I'm really not sure I understand what you're saying, Chuck. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Cynical? Perhaps. Fear? No. I don't have a whole lot of experience, but I've seen what the media has done to this sport. It paints us all as daredevil, thrillseeking, wild humans, who don't care about things. The media has stated things over-simplistically in many instances, insulting both the skydiving community as well as the media's viewers/readers. Generally, when I've read about an incident, it's simply "the chute didn't open." Most of the time, that's incorrect. It's not too hard to articulate what really did happen, but then, the media couldn't use the words "plummet," or "daredevil," and would actually have to learn a little bit about this sport we love. It's not too hard to get the accurate information, but don't sensationalize it; that does no one any good. Generally, we are speaking about the death of a loved one, or two, or desparate injuries. We are speaking of lost family, and how to support their families, fill their needs, love them and help them through a most difficult time. And to have emblazoned across the front page inaccuracies and trite, worn, cliche-ridden 'grafs when the facts are easily understood and articulated tends to create cynicism for this tight community. So cynical, yes...fearful, no. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

James, would that be considered "fair use"? I was wondering about that...I am not a lawyer, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn, but because I've done a fair amount of writing both here and elsewhere, if it is newsworthy, fair use comes into play as I understand it. How does one protect themselves from being taken out of context during a fair use lift, I wonder? And not all media are bad. There are some real, honest, good people who do understand the impact of their story, and will treat it with respect. And yes, there are some schlumps floating around, as well. Difficult subject at a difficult time. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hear, hear! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Sinker, you're talking to a person who not only hates the Roman Catholic Church (although refuses to explain why...but whatever), he also wants to get your goat. Don't even bother. Forgive him, and realize that there is a lot of learning about acceptance and forgiveness that must be done before such a discussion has any impact on some people. I was thinking about this topic today; I realized several things. ~Marriage of Priests: I have yet to see one stand up and say "hey, I love this job, I've answered the calling, but you know what? I want to get married." Those priests who have wanted to get married have left the position, and gotten married... ~Theological issues: It occurs to me that the Pope, and indeed the Church, is as a servant to a master. They have taken what they believe God ("master") wants, and puts it into play. Thus the "servant" serving the Master. What strikes me as fascinating is that people don't see that, or don't want to see that. They are not about setting tradition, they are about upholding tradition. We don't reinvent the church each time a pope is elected, do we? No, and so the continuity and the continuance of the theology of the Church is not changed with each pope. While there have been some changes, it is because a deeper understanding has been reached of the Master's wishes. The Church does not tell God what to do; it is doing it's best, with flawed humans, to carry out what they believe God wants. And who am I to argue with that position? I have not studied theological issues for 70 years, nor do I have at the ready more than 2000 years of documentation to draw from. Lastly, a thought I had while washing up some dishes...if the Church did indeed allow priests to marry, women to stand in as Jesus the Christ during services, allowed birth control to control birth, and whatever other things that the non-Catholic public seems to desire, it would be the absolute strongest, most unstoppable religious movement in the history of the world. It would wield far more political power than it currently does, and it would have a gigantic population of adherents, willing to do whatever it said. Seems to me that Kallend and other detractors seem to want that to happen.... Just some thoughts.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

What I find interesting is the focus on the Pope and Roman Catholic church as misogynistic, when Orthodox Jews are far more oppressive to women (if one is using the same criteria to judge.). Frankly, again, I don't see the mysogyny. But for a woman, Jesus would not have been born. But for a woman, we wouldn't have been born. The concept of the only person on the planet being born without original sin being a woman is fascinating, and definitely not mysogynistic whatsoever. As the Roman Church has Christ represented during services, it is a man who must indeed play that role. Compare to orthodox Judaism, wherein Rabbis (teachers) are only men. Further that to the synagogue of orthodoxism, men and women are separate. Further that to during menses, women are not allowed to be touched (including with the eyes), and further that to a significant cleansing ritual once menses is complete prior to being "allowed" back into the normal issues. And that is simply one aspect of orthodox Judaism that demonstrates, to they who see it that way, a mysogyny inherent to that religious practice. One could read all of that as mysogynistic, and badly so...and yet, for those who believe it, it is not. For those who find it too restrictive, or too separatist, or too something, there is the option to find a synagogue wherein they can worship according to how they want. Same applied over to the Roman Church...for those who believe, it is fine. For those who find it too whatever, there are many many other churches that would welcome them with open arms... There is a quality to those people who demand a specific church worship the individual's way that is bothersome. Buddhism doesn't fit me; and you know what? You don't find me fighting to change Buddhism. Same with all other religions. I can choose where I go; I can choose how I worship. If one church doesn't do it "my" way, fine...I'll find another which does. No big deal. It really isn't. But you won't find me railing against a Buddhist temple insisting they allow women to serve as priests, because it's not in their scripture and structure to do so... There is a base arrogance when one demands that an institution change it's fundamental beliefs to suit them. Who am I to insist that my way is best for everyone? Who am I to insist that something is occuring against my opinion and it should not be happening? Who am I to demand that something be changed because I said so??? That arrogance is based in a selfish, egocentral thought process which, once considered with an open mind, brings a clarity to the situation that hadn't been present before...but only with the intellectual honesty which is demanded by self-reflection and sincere desire to understand self and our relationship within the world. Freedom of choice; free will doctrine. Same thing...and one which should be exercised with intention. If a shoe doesn't fit, wear another pair...if the doctrine of one church doesn't fit your personal style, then find another - or don't go to a church. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I guess it's similar to saying that because men can't have babies, they're less then women. Sinker, through conversations with you about the value of women, the role they play in the world, in the family, and in the Church, and additional reading I've done over time, I tend to think that those who seriously believe that the Church is misogynistic simply because the use of the female in church services is limited tends to make me think that there's some learning which should go on, but probably won't. And it's good to see you posting. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I don't know, but it seems to me that what is wanted is for people to call 9/11 first, and then wait for the cops, or announce the cops have been called... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Defining_.22religion.22 I am not sure what your disagreement consists of. If you include the existence of a deity as the basis of religion, or in other words if there is no deity, there is no religion, then you're in direct contradiction of some basic definitions of the word. While the most common usage of the word is in regards to a theistic belief, it is by no means the only definition of the word. And as I've applied it and understood it for years, the term, in the broadest sense, addresses a system of beliefs upon which you live your life. Therefore, athiesm is indeed a religion, when understanding a broader perspective and scope of the terms, lifestyles, and adherents. Interesting. Your placing of - and insistence of - the term "god" (however one views that term) into a definition which does not have it as such exclusively creates a different definition than what I was using. I would question that, but then you'd think I was accusing you of redefining the english language. Again, I see your point; I disagree with it, and believe that perhaps you have a bad reaction to the term "religion" and thus refuse to see it in the broad application used. Which is, btw, just fine...and something I think is a normal reaction. Frankly, it's all good, whether you believe in a deity, godhead, set of rules, evidence, or what have you. I am not going to prove the existence of my beliefs to you, and you cannot prove the parameters of your beliefs to me. The truth of the matter is no-one knows, not for sure and certain. No one knows what happens after we die. And because that's a point wherein additional discussion is moot, we are left with our own opinions, thoughts, beliefs and opinions. Apology accepted, however it was not sought nor required. There is no way you could have meant it terribly personally, as you don't know me, don't know my thoughts and beliefs...therefore, I saw that more as an indication of who you are, how you think, and what your opinions are. It's all good, and apology accepted as stated, but it was not necessary. Back to the topic at hand...I agree, extremists of any religion are the dangerous ones...from Christianity to Islamic to Buddhists to Athiests....mostly, I think the Agnostics are the ones that have the least propensity towards something, as their position is one of "not knowing" and when one is "not knowing" then there is room to move easily through the world. When one however holds a dogmatic approach to whatever their religion, there is danger that they may behave in a manner detrimental to others...and it is those folks who present the most danger. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I see your point, Jack. I don't agree. I do think that any fervently held position based on deity's existence or non-existence is, in fact, a set of beliefs. It equally always amazes me that people refuse to see that atheism is a religion, but you won't find me denegrating those who disagree with me simply upon that basis. To term something as "drag atheists down to their level" does not respect others' opinions and beliefs, and superior attitude is adequately reflected there. Further, I did not "redefine" the english language; I went to a well recognized source, pulled (and quoted/sourced) the definition, and presented it. That is not "desperate," it is simply supporting a thought during a discussion from a well-known and trusted source. If that is not an acceptable method of supporting a thought, then pray tell what is? Please note in my post I did not refer to the "judeo-christian-islamic" god; rather, I in fact stayed far away from those parameters, and instead discussed deity. Your opinion, and you're completely welcome to it. I disagree, yet I shall refrain from refering to your dogmatically held position as desperate and delusionally psychotic. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Hi, Biggirl. As someone who is both a woman and a person who is no heroin-chic model type, and someone who has jumped with Amazon (Jeanne) and had a ball - first time I've arched since aff - it is doable...and it is as amazing as you think. It can be done - you just have to find a way to do it. Please don't let someone who didn't even know that larger canopies exist sway your decision; find your dream, follow your dream, and when it's time for you to take to the skies in a 2-way, I'll be there!! Rock on! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Merriam Webster online... 1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith merriam Webster on-line... 1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS 2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity Thus can an argument be made that atheism is indeed a religion...albeit without a diety head. It is a core set of beliefs (which cannot be proved, as deity cannot be proved) that deity does not exist, and which must then be taken on faith. The one which is most honest is agnosticism, as it does not concretely rule out the existence of deity nor include it concretely in their life. And I voted for atheism. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Recently, I was injured in the tunnel - and I wasn't doing anything special (I can't...I'm not very good...). As I was exiting, I got a little high, and my hand slipped as I was pulling myself out. My right side re-entered the windstream, while my left leg was in the doorway. Somehow, I managed to get back over my left side, but also managed to rip the big tendon in my ankle...not completely, thank God, but still enough to make me take a trip to the Dr...and get my happy ass grounded until mid-April (at least). Last night in the tunnel, I was particularly careful when entering and exiting...and did not duplicate the problem. But it still hurts and aches off and on...They tell me it hurts worse than a break, and I'm starting to believe that. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

It wasn't from "The Stand," (I don't think) but figured prominently in "Insomnia" and also repeated (perhaps) in several of his short stories in "Everything's Eventual" and/or "Hearts in Atlantis." In "Insomnia" one of the story lines is about a feminist who is pro-choice and very vocal about it, and her affect on one of the story's main characters (and his parallel insanity), and the culmination point is a rally wherein the protagonists are trying to stop the insane guy from killing Susan Day. She also appears (briefly, and only if IIRC) in "Rose Madder," a story about spousal abuse. Sorry, and I think the spelling of the name is Susan Day, rather than Dey, who indeed was in both LA Law and the Partridge Family. If you're wondering what the trigger might be, think about the rape thread happening, as well as the recent papal death/change of power, and so on. Cheers! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

The Pope is passing. The death door has been shut, from what I've heard. And in this moment, irrespective of belief personal or spiritual, this was an amazing man. His life is one to be understood - not simply in the realm of the catholic church, but in the world in total. I am not a catholic, but a dear friend gave me a holy scapula about 18 months ago when I was enduring my surgeries. He sent it to me as a symbol of faith, and of compassion. I've had the scapula with me since the day it was given. It has lead to a deeper understanding of a church I am not affiliated with, and a respect which has deepened for the leader of this church and his affect on the world. And so I'm left with the thought only that while I may not have always appreciated, liked, or even understood the song, the singer was always magnificent. Be enbraced, then, with the kiss of millions, as you pass into heaven, and into the hands of God. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I wonder how he came up with '07? And if the US is decimated by tsunamis on both coasts, something really really large has happened; Mexico, Canada, the entire Pacific rim and the western coast of Europe will likely be decimated, as well. So I wonder...why only detail the US? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

From what I understand, the argument was with Terri's brother, who was asked to leave the room during an assessment. He protested, and an officer was called. It was noted that Terri was in her last minutes, and Michael Schiavo was summoned. Michael made the split second decision to exclude her brother from the room as he would've had to have been accompanied by a police officer to maintain the peace, and Michael didn't think Terri would have wanted an officer, unrelated to her, in the room as she passed. According to this same story, Michael was in the room, cradling Terri as she died. There are no winners in this situation. None. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I was silent on the other threads about this subject, as I was torn. There is no clear position for me, as I believe both in life and in choice. I understand both sides completely. I have been appalled by the circus which played out, and is still playing out; both from the federal government and media as well as the family. I also see some good coming out of this; I've had "the conversation" with my entire family, and have become far more clear as to their positions. They have become far more clear as to mine. But I am also sadly happy for Terri, that she now is free - completely and utterly free to move to the next phase, whatever that may be. To move toward her God, and to have obeyed the last rites of her faith must have been a release for her soul. To know she is now complete and whole again, to have been released from her body, has brought me some peace with the situation. It also appalls me the manner in which the release was delivered. The starvation, the dehydration is atrocious. A compassionate society does not allow the suffering this must have created, even if she "didn't know." What we don't know is what she suffered; and this is horrifying to me. The worst of our society receives more humane treatment in their final moments via lethal injection, and no suffering is allowed (cruel and unusual punishment was the rallying cry to change the manner of death from hanging to firing squad to electric chair to lethal injection). To know that a woman who committed no crime was treated less humanely by our society than a serial killer is utterly incomprehensible to me. And so now, knowing she has died, I still have no clear answer. I have no position pro or con, as again I see both sides. I can only think "at last, Terri, you're free. At last, Terri, you're whole. And at last, Terri, you rest." God speed and God bless. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Justin, you actually did hear me complain about that. When I said this isn't a conversation about gun control, I meant everyone...not just those who are anti gun. I meant everyone. I am pro gun...but in this instance, that isn't the issue. The issue is a teenager in crisis, and why that wasn't noted, addressed, and helped. It's still not about gun control, but it's far easier to yak about that and argue about that and point fingers at that and blame that. And while that's going on, there are more kids in crisis that need help who aren't being seen or noticed. But oh well... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

I don't. I think there are plenty who do, and plenty who don't. I dunno, perhaps that just makes me "fair and balanced..." Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

John, thanks for that. But the problem is that people don't want to look at the causes, they only want to argue the method/vehicle. They're still ignoring this kid. If one addresses the causes, the method/vehicle becomes unimportant. And then what would they have to blame? Pinning the blame onto something as easy as gun control is ignoring the real issues, and the real cause of this horrible event. And that's what needs to be addressed, not who has which gun, which country has less/more crime, and how big a business guns are... Look at the real issue, people, and find ways to address that. It's not nearly so easy, and certainly not as fun, though. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

How about that....a child kills a group of people, including his grandparents, and then takes his own life, and the thread is about gun control. It's not about gun control. It's not about accessible handguns (the guns used were the grandfather's work issued weapons; those, along with the squad car, were stolen after the grandfather and other adult were killed.) It's about a depressed child who, in recent times, experienced massive loss...his father suicided (depression is very likely a genetic dispositional issue) and his mother was so badly hurt in a car accident (likely after the father suicided) so that she can't take care of him anymore. So this child loses both his parents - his stability, his guidance, his "heros" as it were. His life is enormously disrupted at a time when he needs stability the most; those gawd awful teenage years. He is taken in by his grandparents, who may not have been able to handle a teenager... This kid goes on and gets tormented by the teens (as they will; they're teens, after all), and finds an identity in a horrible movement. He kills his grandparents, then the security guard, and then 4 others, including a teacher who had "wronged" him (in his mind, according to one source I've heard...some letter or communication of some sort). And you all are arguing about gun control. How about those people who saw this kid, and didn't take the time to actually see how he was? Who didn't know the signs of depression? Who didn't understand that if a child is touched by suicide, they are far more likely to either be excessively violent or suicide themselves by the time they're 25? What about them? Who was paying attention to this kid? Let's talk about the issue here. People are dead. It's not about gun control, or if you should/should not use them to protect your happy ass in your own home. It's about dead people, and a child who killed them. Ciels- Michele (nothing in this post should be construed as supportive of this kid's choice.) edited for typos. ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Yepppppers. I think I'll go have dinner after working 12 hours today. Hm, I wonder what I'll have? Hey, I know. Some soup (it's raining; the hearty vegetable one looks just about right) and a salad...spinach and romaine, some kidney beans, red onion, and vinegar dressing. Yepppppers, fat, lazy and slobbish. That's me! Ciels- Michele Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

Well, and why not? Simon answers my phone. I was just wondering if this was the same guy who wanted a license to shoot cats...somehow, the sense of justice would be ironic. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~

This thread hurts my eyes.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~