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Wow! Ralph is now OK in my book. Airplanes, especially V 12 powered fighters, take precedence over politics and other petty concerns. Any guy who flew P 40s and P 51s is a hell of a pilot. I had been defining him by his Bonanza, big mistake! Thanks Jerry! 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Yeah Snow, but you know there is a lesson here. We sniped at the FBI from day one (you more viciously and frequently than me) and virtually assured that we would never get on their A list. If we were REALLY clever we'd have been unfailingly nice, occasionally adoring and we might have been in there with Tom. Once in the inner sanctum, viral keyboard loggers would have been launched by swapping real time cloned USB drives. Tiny retroreflectors pasted to the windows would have turned them into laser interrogatable sound diaphragms. Oh, the horror. Ckret isn't dumb. He knew how to bait the mad dogs early and it worked. Only the truly nice dogs were allowed inside. No mistakes were made in identifying breeds. Now we howl outside waiting for scraps and published papers. Angry snarling street dogs pacing the alley behind the FBI office, rummaging through the trash. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Yeah, cheap solid state memory and image sensors have made things so much tougher for the feds involved in couterintelligence and spycatching. I don't envy their jobs. Tech deck is stacked in favor of the bad guys. I used to get security briefings in the 70s when the hot spy tech weapons were Minox film cameras. Now an internet enabled cellphone with a camera can be an awesome spy tool. Just think how easier Cooper's skyjack would have been if he had a GPS and a cell phone. McCoy did it all with no high tech assists, so we know it can be done. Bruce, I am not being sarcastic in asking this. Can you glean any info about Cooper's personality from his interaction with the flight attendants? I may be reading too much into it but he didn't seem especially socially inept in dealing with Tina. I have seen people with serious personality disroders when I did volunteer work in a county rehab center a long time ago. The serious cases just couldnt interact successfully or appropriately in even very brief social encounters. They were awkward in the extreme. Safe, can't you say that Gossett's story fits too? If Duane can be Cooper why can't Gossett? BTW, I am sure you made Jo's day by saying that Duane fits the DBC facts so far. That is a good thing even if I disagree with what made her feel good. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Who is the FBI DBC czar who first muzzled Ckret and now Tom? I voted for change. This isn't change. I am going to write to my congressperson and get some daylight shining in Seattle. Maybe they still have W's picture hanging in the office. Maybe J Edgar too. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Being a total aviation nut I want to know what Ralph flew as a military pilot. I know it wasn't an SR 71 but I would be impressed by any early planes. Jerry, can you ask him? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

True Snow, no offical reports, but we do have this from the FBI: http://www.fbi.gov/page2/dec07/dbcooper123107.html Carr's opinions really take on an air of "official report" when you see them set forth on the FBI website that way. The presentation and source gives them "authority" independent of content. Carr seems 100% positive that Cooper was not an experienced skydiver. How can he be so sure? I still equivocate on that one. We are both just guessing. I see evidence supporting either position although Carr's conclusion has the edge. He also says: "[Cooper] had no idea where he was when he jumped. There was also no visibility of the ground due to cloud cover at 5,000 feet." Are you 100% sure that he had "no idea" where he was on exit? I'm not. The public likes to think the FBI is on top of things. The public wouldn't like an FBI DBC webpage that said: We dont have any idea who Cooper was. We only have a very rough idea of where he jumped and that thin line on out map should have been drawn with a broad brush or even a spray paint can. We have some DNA on a tie that might or might not be Cooper's. We have been unable to match it to any person. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I am reminded of the Warren Report on the JFK assassination. A panel of "experts" issued a report which the majority of the American public rejected as flawed, biased, inaccurate etc. Many suspected a coverup. The single gunman single bullet theory was viewed as preposterous. Contrary evidence presented turned out to be incorrect (eg police radio audio tapes allegedly indicating multiple gunfire locations calculated by time of arrival delays). Turns out that the report was actually pretty good. I initially thought the Warren Report was trash. I have changed my mind. I think Safe is saying that when you have a lot of "experts" examining a crime and they reach a consensus on key evidence (eg flight path) the chances of them being waaaay off base is low. He is just making the safe bet at the craps table, that's all. When we have to resort to wild theories (H found the money, there was no hijacker, the money find was staged etc) we are very likely wrong. Calling the flight path highly inaccurate isn't a wild theory, but Safe is making the bet that the team that had access to fresher and more complete data than we have now was more likely correct than we are. I see Safe's point and I also see Snow's point about Safe's point. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

How does the skyjack make NWA look unsafe or negligent??? They did a GREAT job if you look at the outcome as the grade. No injuries, no deaths of crew or pax. Not much property damage (ramp strike on landing) and a cash loss covered by insurance. I'd give them an A-. Now if NWA thought it was an insider, then the situation totally changes. I haven't seen any indication that NWA had a clue about Cooper's ID. Employees gossip. Word gets out. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

When you have overwhelming proof of guilt from untainted evidence then procedural screwups are sometimes forgiven by the appeals courts as "harmless error". The opinions confirming convictions despite big screwups actually use that quoted phrase (harmless error) as a legal explanation. Harmless error is a concept taught in law school classes on appellate law. When lost evidence could have even theoretically exonerated a defendant and the other evidence is equivocal, a dismissal is far more likely. That's where the allegedly lost cig butts add some risk to a successful prosecution. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Regardless of FBI or FAA jurisdiction some US Attorney (US Dept of Justice) will be prosecuting Cooper if he is caught. That prosecution will be compromised if ANY relevant evidence possessed by the govt is lost destroyed or altered prior to trial of an accused. From the standpoint of a criminal case, FAA policy approving the destruction of hijack tapes or other evidence atfer three years is meaningless. The FBI would have to be sure that didnt happen or they might be handing Cooper a free pass if he were ever caught. Evidence handling is a big part of law enforcement training. One screwup can blow a whole case. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Joe, We obviously share major respect for this absolute marvel of 1960s engineering. I was fantasizing that Darryl Greenamyer would buy an SR 71 and set some new world records. Of course the DOD would never sell or give one surplus to anyone but a museum, but still, Greenamyer built an F 104 Starfighter out of scrap and FLEW IT! He also reportedly bought a surplus KC 97 refueling tanker with Ascher Ward in the 1980s. I always thought in the back of his mind he was pondering something. I saw the KC 97 fly into Chino CA from Van Nuys. Smokey as hell but it flew. Greenamyer had plenty of SR 71 time as a Lockheed pilot. He is an aviation great but doesnt get much press outside of his ill fated ice bound B 29 rescue attempt in Greenland. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Georger. Just what do you speculate that they were covering up or manipulating and why? You do think there was a skyjacker on the plane, right? Or... do you have some doubts? I have monitored a lot of what are called "company"comms from airliners. They usually talk about mechanical stuff, dispatch and scheduling operations and plane and crew availability issues etc. Even in the midst of a skyjack NWA had some logistics to consider since an active 727 and crew would be removed from their fleet for a while. They probably wanted to have the crew's estimate on where and when they would land and what maintenance issues amy have been raised by the hijack activities. I have heard long talks with maintainance people trying to resolve non emergency in flight issues. It's funny, they almost always first suggest cycling circuit breakers no matter what the issue is. Today a lot of the traffic is text done over ACARS using their VHF radios. It is easy to decode, you can get freeware that lets your computer sound card do the decoding. All you need is a VHF AM aircraft band receiver. Once in a while you get some really interesting comms on ACARS, like reports of a celebrity being drunk and out of control in first class. Normally it is just automated data broadcasts with flight number, position, speed, wheels up time on TO, etc. Do tell us what was behind your use of the words: "manipulated and covered up." Inquiring minds want to know. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

What a tragic accident that PSA 727-Cessna collision was. It resulted in what has to be one of the most dramatic crash photos in history. There was a DC 9 collision with a light plane somewhere in the US where the airliner landed safely with the wreckage of the light plane embedded in the airliner fuselage. I wish we could figure out what happened to the radar tapes in the Cooper case. When a criminal prosecution is likely, the govt has to be (and usually is) VERY VERY careful to preserve all relevant evidence otherwise cases can get dismissed based on "spoliation of evidence" claims. The long term evidence preservation is far more critical in a skyjack than it is in aviation incidents/accidents where no crime was committed. In fact, if what Jo says about the cig butts is true (she claims the FBI lost them) a clever defense lawyer could get a case dismissed if there was no unambiguous proof that his client was Cooper. You'd just argue that the butts had DNA that would have exonerated your client, the govt had custody of the evidence and lost it and move for dismissal. Could Cooper be successfully prosecuted today? Can't really say for sure, but it wouldn't be a piece of cake if evidence once in the govt's possesion has been lost. I bet the FBI has some evidence that has not been discussed that could be used to tie a suspect to the case. It only makes sense that they would have a few cards not yet shown. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Wouldn't the FDR data just give us a very crude dead reckoning track (course, speed, time) at best? I guess anything is better than nothing, but with strong winds aloft a DR track is going to be way off. I guess we could do some wind corrections. I dimly remember one case where they correlated some FDR and CVR data to get a precise fix at a point in time. Thge crew was chatting about just crossing a VOR radial and the crash investigators used that info in connection with FDR data. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I too am obsessed with SR 71s. In many ways they exceeded the 1960s moon landing technology in wow factor. They flew briefly for NASA after USAF retirement. Everyone wonders what replaced them in the USAF inventory. SR 71s at various times have been fitted with all sorts of recon gear. IR line/strip mappers were often used and gave very useful data on terrain, vegatation, etc. The IR detector was supercooled. I worked in IR imaging and you would be amazed at how good it was at spotting mans presence/impact in the wilderness. The planes could usually get far better IR data than the sats due to target proximity. It was long suspected that USAF IR recon data was given to the feds to find pot farms. The irrigation makes them stand out big time on IR strip maps. NASA's version of the U2 spyplane has definitely been used to find non permitted contruction in resticted zones on the CA coast. There are legal issues if there is military participation in domestic law enforcement, so if it exists it is covert. NASA isn't military so it can operate a bit more freely. USN P3 subchaser planes have been used to track drug boats coming up from below the US boder. The DEA has their own P3 "baby AWACS" radar surveillance plane but the smugglers know where they are kept and put out an alert when they take off thus dramatically reducing their effectiveness. SR 71s were used to map some areas in Alaska immediately after the huge 1964 quake to do damage assessment. I have spoken at length with two former sled drivers (what SR 71 pilots call themselves). Refueling those beasts in midair took incredible skill. The operation would start dangerously slow in a high angle of attack and change radically during the fueling so that at the end the SR 71 was in afterburner to maintain high AOA flight linked to the special tanker (KC 135Q). They burned an exotic fuel blend , not normal jet fuel, thus requiring a dedicated tanker. Our embedded journalist draws one personality related conclusion from the fact that Cooper was apparently never reported missing. I think the more likely explanation is simply that he didn't die in the jump. Wishful thinking? Yeah, I like a happy ending to any skydive story, even a skyjack. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Anything SR 71 impresses me including unsubstantiated rumors. Bring em on. A 12 and YF 12 too. All Skunk Works all the time. Snow, we have now seen actual pictures of the FBI party that we were not invited to. I am not sure we are even on the B list. Georger has brought non wacko people to the forum who are presentable enough to gain admission to the FBI inner sanctum. The FBI will never let us in to look at their stuff. I probably wouldn't either if I were them. Barb Dayton and Duane are going to help solve this case because they have personality disorders??? Maybe Duane's secret book was DSM IV. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Funny you shoud mention that. I read an article about a serious WW2 project to build ice ships. They found the wreckage of a prototype in a lake. The plan was to use ammonia compresssors and pipes to keep the hull frozen. They actually built some big concrete ships. There is a wreck of one on a beach near Aptos CA. It is still fairly intact. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jerry, If you can, just ignore the provocations. Don't rise to the bait. I like Snow. Sluggo used to and is willing to come around if Snow changes back to his earlier kinder gentler self. Sluggo enrolled Snow in an anger management class. Snow beat up the instructor and took over the class. He delivered a very convincing lecture on the benefits of sceptical rage and constructive confrontation. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Snow I just put the ohmmeter on the two jaws of my staple remover. Zero ohms. Kaboom. This is the work of an explosives expert? Aren't they licensed? Was Barb licensed? I wouldn't hire her to wire my caps, delays and explosives. Would you? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Georger, You see some pathos in Barb and so do I. Making a bad choice in a sex change operation is a lot worse than buying the wrong car. Still, why assume that she was as benevolent and wise as the old vet you knew as a kid? BSing her friends about being Cooper is cruel and manipulative. She doesn't necessarily deserve any more literary attention than was paid to her by Ray Davies of the Kinks when he penned Lola. She was a manipulative liar, nothing special in my book. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Another Barb thing Georger. Were you laughing as hard as I was at her home brew stapler remover detonator SPST momentary NO switch? Good grief. She was as dumb as a rock technically. And she was supposed by her adoring gullible friends to be a computer and nuke power expert? Give me a break. Went to the DZ today. Getting too lazy doing just tunnel flying. Made a nice long solo from 18k. Sweet, even if a bit chilly. Saw an old aquaintance on the load. Told me his wife had left and had married another jumper we both knew from the same DZ. Nothing much has changed other than the gear and planes. 377 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Funny thing Snow, I too was thinking Cd and other metals which might be rig related. Wouldn't that be something if our guess was correct? Still, how would you know if it was from some dumped Nicad batteries or rig hardware? Maybe a metalurgist could distinguish by Ni content. If there is rig related metal on the money it argues in favor of a fatal landing where the rig and the money stayed in close proximity long enough for contamination of the money by the rig metals. Very unlikely, but fun to speculate about while we wait for tight lipped Tom to give us tantilizing tidbits from his investigation. Hey Snow, you don't have to bash the FBI 24/7/365. NOBODY will ever accuse you of kissing FBI butt so cut em a little slack. I know, you did throw some props to Special Agent C. in Utah. I have an old friend who is an ex FBI SA. He has given me some insight into the agency. It does have some very smart people in its ranks. He is killer smart, even you would agree. He regularly worked with SAs smarter than himself. They are hiring Snow. You can apply online. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Yeah Guru, DZO: Peasant's wages, King's bounty. It all balanced out, right? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I have seen two episodes of CSI so I know PLENTY about crime scene processing . I wonder how long was "enough" for effective processing of the 727 crime scene? I really have no idea but I am 100% positive that the CSI folks would have had Cooper locked up in a week. Yes, they really are THAT GOOD! I don't know why the FBI can't do half as well. If I were the SAC we would have held the 727 for weeks and done a LOT of live jump testing, to hell with expensive sleds. My buddies would be sleds for free if it earned them a jet jump. We'd try jumps over all possible exit points and repeat them several times to get consistent data. Let the airline scream, they can file a case in the US Claims Court in DC if they don't like it. I'd return the 727 when I got tired of jump testing. Then off on a long junket to SE Asia to look for Air America 727 jump connections. That could take months. One night in Bangkok? Hell no, thirty at least! 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Prior to your McCoy book posts I thought McCoy might have been Cooper and had a well engineered fake alibi, but no more. McCoy and Cooper were two different people. What about the tie DNA? If it is a good sample and really did come from Cooper then they do know who Cooper was, genetically. They just don't have a name to match the gene sequence. I wonder what makes the FBI so sure it is Cooper's DNA? Cold cases get solved all the time through DNA. Has the tie DNA been run against all registries that the feds have access to? I know this DNA stuff may bring Jo out of the woodwork raising the issue of the lost Cooper cigarette butts. I wonder if they were examined for prints or DNA, none was found and they were discarded or whether somehow they were lost without having ever been tested. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.