377

Great 1937 footage, thanks Snow! Would you believe that the planes (Ford Tri-Motor) were STILL hauling smoke jumpers in 1969? True! 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Hard to say about the knapsack. I have sometimes wondered if he intended to have the money come down under a reserve canopy with the money in a knapsack. Crazy idea, but crazy hijacker too. The lack of D rings on a typical bailout rig makes me wonder what he was thinking ordering the reserves (chest packs or front packs or whatever he called them) but all he would have needed to secure a reserve to anything were a couple of carabiners. I think a loadmaster would come with some of his own hardware as their whole job is about securing loads and attaching things. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Loadmasters (when they were chutes at all) just wear a back pack main bailout typoe rig, no reserve. Eugene Hasenfus was saved by one of these when his C 123 was hit over Centra America and apparently more than a few kickers in SE Asia were saved too when they fell out during airdrops. Cooper may have ordered the reserves as money containers, planning to disard the canopy and just keep the container. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Exactly! Carr's profile is soooo specific. It really makes me wonder what info the FBI has that we have not been shown. Every investigator is mindful of looking bad if their stated profile turns out to be hugely different from the true profile of the guy who did the crime. For that reason they are often a bit vague, like fortune tellers, giving general terms that would fit a wide range of people. Loadmaster is really specific. Sure, there is some publicly available evidence that is consistent with loadmaster, but it is also consistent with many other explanations as to Cooper's background and experience. Since there is evidence that points away from aircrew/airdrop experience (like inadequate shoes and clothing) what makes Carr stay on the loadmaster profile in spite of contrary evidence? There must be something. I just have a hunch that the FBI knows more than we do that points them towards aircrew, loadmaster, etc. Maybe it was something very loadmaster specific that Cooper said to the 727 crew and has not been published. I am of course just guessing. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I know four ex Airborne paratroopers. ALL their military jumps were S/L. I dont know what kind of rig the jumpmasters wear, but there are quite a few ex 82d and 101st Airborne guys on tihs website who can tell you all you need to know about their kind of jumping. I still can't figure out why the FBI would feature the Dan Cooper comic book cover graphic on their DBC website. I am sure there is a reason, but it escapes me. Maybe it was the only attractive graphic they could find that was DBC related. I'd have picked the Betty Page type pinup that Tom Kaye was so virtuously ignoring, or if the SAC vetoed that, then I'd pick Sluggo's artistically lit 727 stair photo. My recollection is that Ckret nixed the authenticity of claims that Cooper mentioned "interphone" but I am not 100% sure. Interphone is definitely a military term, used for crew intercom. Until I started fooling with surplus military aviation radios I had never heard the term "interphone". Their circuit schematics always had a low level audio connnection for interface to the aircraft interphone. The interphone system could take auio from microphones, crew handsets and radio receivers and direct it into the intercom system. AN/AIC 10 was a common interphone system in the 50s and 60s. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Your patient seasoned advice to HAHO newbies is very much appreciated. Sounds like an 18K hop and pop with supplemental O2 is pretty safe. Just for bragging rights in the ham radio community 20K would be better, but based on what I am learning from you and others I doubt if I am going higher than 20 and may just do 18. I dont want to impose on you but I hope you will be open to further questions as they arise. Right now I am pondering regulators, but I do not know enough to ask intelligent questions yet. Antennas will likley be coax dipoles which will basically be a piece of coax hanging down and cut so that it acts as a resonant center fed dipole antenna on the band of interest, probably 20 meters (14 MHz). Thanks again for the help! Blues, Mark 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

At some point ckret spoke about this part of his theory here. I like the theory (or alternatively that of a cargo kicker) because it explains how someone who may not have jumped before would not really have door fear, as well as choosing the rig he did. if cooper was not airborne military, then the smokejumper/air america connection may be important. 377 - been busy/distracted. Around. trying to figure out merits of other forum but haven't really had time to check it out. been a dz.com junkie since i began jumping and that won't change, but real life intrudes occasionally Ckret posted his Cooper as a former aircrew loadmaster/kicker theory long before the Air America stuff came to light here. Did the FBI already know about all that SE Asia covert air ops stuff including 727 jumps but did not disclose it? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I agree with Quade. Not everything is evidence of an anti gun conspiracy in the new government. I am a balanced guy, belonging to both the NRA and ACLU. I just like the US Constitution (A LOT!!!) and unfortunately it needs hired help to protect it. I can't depend on my legislators to do the job. The ACLU fights for the first, fourth and fourteenth amendments and the NRA fights for the second amendment. I wonder if anyone else besides me on dropzone.com belongs to both organizations? Doubt it. I have a good friend who thinks Obama is going to impose martial law (he says in June 09, so get ready ) etc etc. He has bought TONS of ammo in preparation for his imagined Armageddon. All it takes is a few thousand similar minded ammo hoarders and good old supply and demand equations kick in. The clerk at my local guns/sporting goods store said he has never seen so many large multi box ammo purchases by individuals. They are loving it. Blue skies, 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

How was she involved in WW 2 combat and how old would that make her? Something doesn't add up age wise to fit the Dayton was Cooper story. The book says she is 43 in 1969 when he became a she through the wonders of surgery. That means he was a WW 2 Philippines theater combatant at about age 15? I guess its possible, but it seems far fetched. Her story about jumping from near the top of the steps doesn't add up either. I don't think you'd get enough downward stair deflection for a clear exit. Sluggo, Snow? Was she an experienced skydiver? The book says yes but where is the proof? What DZ? What jumpers knew her? If not experienced there is little chance she could do a jet exit, 8000 ft night freefall and pull at 1000 ft AGL. A flat spin and blackout is far more probable if she was a novice. Sounds to me that Barb was a hell of a yarn spinner. Wonder if she got any one night stands with her Cooper story? Didn't work for me. Maybe it was my cheap sunglasses that wrecked the deal. La La La La LOLA. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

When I tried that Cooper pitch I always got a cold shoulder. I even offered to show the girl a C9 in the back seat of my car but she completely misunderstood. I always did better saying I was Wayne Newton, was tired of the Vegas scene and was looking for a "girl next door" to settle down with. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Of course this is a social outlet for me. I am not a professional investigator. This is entertainment with some minor utility thrown in if we can find some relevant evidence. Mia culpa. So Georger, this is what, the third or fourth time you have left and come back? So who has the addiction here? You have left rehab three times and have come back to the hood every time to score. As a fellow DBC junkie who admits the addiction I welcome your return, really. Geoger, surely you didnt think I was saying COOPER was seen on ATC radar did you? That radar stuff referring to individual exiting jumpers (plural) IS real. Ignore it if you wish but it happened and quite regularly. ATC controllers would even give the jump pilots accurate counts on how many jumpers had exited. Ask Guru and Airtwardo. I personally spoke with several Air National Guard ATC guys who worked jumpships and they said exactly the same thing. I worked at the leading company in high performance military radar in the early 80s. I know what it can and cannot detect. Jumpers are a piece of cake compared to birds and birds are easy targets. I worked with the guy who literally wrote the book on radar fundamentals for tracking airborne targets. Georger, rediscovered lost knowledge is not garbage. OF COURSE the 727 jumps were known years ago. They were made and people knew about them. Nobody here knew anything other than rumors about them and the FBI apparently didnt know anything either. Jo didnt do anything spectacular and neither did I but your attack on the rediscovery of the CIA/Air America 727 jumps is puzzling. You are guessing when you dismiss the relevance of the smoke jumper CIA SE Asia air ops links. You are probably right but you can't be certain. I think Cooper may have known for sure he could jump a 727 and the only way he could know this is from some knowledge of prior jumps. Boeing? Air America? Smoke jumper? Who knows, but why attack the research? We are not claiming a James Earl Ray or MLK JFK RFK Frank Sinatra UFO link. It isn't so hard to be nice Georger, especially to those who treat you cordially and respecfully like I do. I can't reform Snow, he has no more injectable veins for the potion, but I still hold out hope for you. 73 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I think its impt to keep this forum going because it gets read by skydivers, including many who never post. I know something about the old gear Cooper jumped but not nearly as much as some of the other jumpers and riggers on dropzone.com. We have learned some impt things from all those guys including first hand confirmation that individual exiting jumpers could be seen on ATC scopes 60 miles away with 1971 ATC radar technology. We also proved here, through an aviation history professor who I located, that 727 jumps were made in SE Asia prior to NORJACK, although I have to give Jo full credit for first making the claim. Orange (a jumper) has found absolutely intriguing links between US smokejumpers and covert CIA/Air America air missions in SE Asia prior to NORJACK. Jumpers may be crucial to solving the DBC mystery and that's why I want to keep this forum active even if it is ridiculed. Every once in a while, even those who scoff at this forum pop in with something very relevant that non jumpers might miss. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Hey Orange, Anyone still here but me you Snow and Jo? Roll call: 377 present 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

What does it mean that the two best skydiving media products (SKYDIVING magazine and DROPZONE.COM) both hit the wall and hit it nearly simultaneously? Jay did a great job, hope he finds a good landing spot. Sangiro is an old pro at this and I welcome his return. How about some cheaper form of membership or even a Paypal donation button? Most participants aren't premier members because of the high price. I bet if everyone gave a dollar a month it would help, but there is no easy way to do it, or if there is I have missed it. Welcome back Sangiro and Daniel. Hope it prospers under you. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks very much! How fortunate to be getting advice from someone who does this for a living and can speak form experience just not theory. I will be definitely be asking some more questions once I assimilate what you have already advised and figure out how to do it. Years ago, before I had this HAHO ham radio comm idea, I spoke with a USAF flight surgeon who worked with their Pararescue Jumpers (PJs). He thought skydivers were generally ignorant and negligent about flight physiology. He said just because you can get away it most of the time doesn't mean it wont bite you really badly when you least expect it. I can see you might agree with his opinion. I do know what you mean about warm ground temps being misleading. I got some pretty thick ice on my goggles jumping from Mullins King Air at 23k when it was over 90F on the ground. I was not prepared for that but fortunately got down to warm air fast before I got any frostbite. I did an 18K freefall jump from the King Air 200 a week ago and it didn't seem difficult. There were a few degrees of flaps deployed on jump run, maybe that is why it didn't seem too fast. They were putting tandems out at 18K on this load after my exit. Any clothing advice? Is thermal underwear enough or do you need down clothing? Never thought about foot steering. Any advice for how to properly trim the length of the line below the clip? Suspended harness? Hadn't considered prebreathing O2 for 30 min. I don't think that will be too hard to arrange. I'll need to rig some quick disconnect couplers on the ground and flight O2 cylinders. How low a HAHO wold eliminate the need for any O2 gear/breathing? I want a long time under canopy to get enough time for commo, but maybe 14K is a better idea? Do you still need all the O2 precautions? Thanks again. Mark 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, To prove your theory you must produce convincing unequivocal evidence. The FBI's refusal or failure to investigate leads you provide them PROVES NOTHING. I am convinced that Ckret REALLY wants to win the gold medal in the "detective olympics" and would follow up any lead that looked like it might be reasonably productive. I see no reason why Jerry isn't just as eager to solve one of the greatest whodunnits of the 20th century. If people knowledgeable about the case discredit or ignore you, the most likely explanation is simply that they see your leads as non productive. A coverup or deliberate efforts to suppress productive evidence is the least likely explanation, by far. This late after the crime, a coverup makes no sense at all. Even if Cooper were an FBI agent Ckret would not cover it up in my opinion. As cynical as I am about cops, the FBI has a pretty decent record in nailing their own when they commit crimes unrelated to their investigative duties. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Im going to state this as clearly as I know how - and people are free to take it for whatever its worth, to them personally. I am not here for social reasons, per se, to answer just one of Snowmman's queries. Beyond the blizzard of personal attacks, there are now issues of substance at stake, issues we spent months discussing. A body of core facts which Snowmman and others have chipped away at until at this junction I am not sure we even know the hijacking happened, and Im not being dramatic. This goes far beyond anything Tom Kaye and his panel is dealing with or any problems they may have encountered. We have worked for months under the assumption a few core facts happened, eg. Cooper jumped with an NB6 chute and now that is even in question in favour of an NB8 chute, and apparently this new information is now certified by Cossey himself! Where did that come from so late in the game? This is the unraveling I spoke of earlier in this forum when commenting about Snowmman's tactics, his psychological warefare and his dysinformation campaign. We (or at least "I") have arrived at a point where very basic facts are now in question and I for one see no good resolution in sight. This makes me question whether any discussion of DB Cooper is even possible, or what the goals of that discussion could be. It may well be this matter can be nothing more than a social ocassion and outlet for some. Thatis not why I came here. It is therefore necessary for me personally that I go elsewhere to try and unravel some of these questions of fact or to lay this matter down completely. An alternate website has been set up just for that purpose and I am going there if I ever decide to pursue this further. I will come back from time to time and check to see if anything is happening here. For me personally, it has to be that way now. Thanks and good luck. [edit]: and one last point. Anyone who thinks "I think" I am somehow necessary or vital to this debate, really is out of touch. I have always considered this a pure luxury, I can no longer afford or am willing to apply, under the current regime. Once again Georger, please reconsider. Nobody is necessary to the debate but many are vital including you and Jerry. You of all people should know how to communicate information in the presence of noise or even intentional interference. Notch it out and keep the QSO going! No need to permanently QSY. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Thanks! 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Snow's list shows an anti FBI bias. Anyone who is/was a DBC SA is on the B list but also anyone who is close to or respects a DBC SA gets on the B list too. I am anti authoritarian and admit my bias. I think cops are too often bullies and it really pisses me off. I don't, however, automatically put Carr or Himmelsbach or their friends or associates on my B list. If I were chummy with Ralph or Larry and on their A list, I think that would edge me towards Snows B list. The variables should be more orthogonal and independent. Carr is a smart guy. We had a more productive forum with him than without him. He misses stuff, has undisclosed agendas and has a Cooper is dead bias, but I give him a lot of credit for doing what he did in his spare time. Look at the time stamps on some of his posts. That shows something very admirable. The guy has a deadly serious day job and still found time to work with us on this "fantasy football" type project. Larry has DBC fever and he has access to ALL the FBI stuff, not just what they care to publicize. That combo was a valuable resource. I worked defending accused criminals in court and gained a grudging respect for some cops, the ones who could figure things out and put together a case I just couldn't beat. Larry does that regularly in his day job, so let's not be too quick to criticize how he approaches his unpaid night job. I know very little about Himmelsbach but I have respect for him. Here's why: First, he flew P 40s and P 51s in the military. These high powered tail dragger fighters were a handful and took a combo of brains and balls to fly successfully. Look at how many doctors and lawyers have died flying postwar restored versions that had most of the heavy military ordinance and radio gear removed. The P 51 was arguably the SR 71 of WW 2. Also, H's flight experience tells me that he has some serious "sky smarts" and has applied them to the Cooper mystery. Second, a retired FBI SA I know who is smart as hell gives H a thumbs up. He calls a spade a spade and has no reason to kiss any FBI butts. I like Snow. His sarcasm and confrontational nature don't bother me. He can drop it though and befriend the unloved. Look at how protective he is of Jo these days. Snow has the seeds of warmth and redemption, they just need a little more sun to bloom. His name is hardly "nothing." If you knew it and Googled it you would see that he has accomplished a lot professionally in a very difficult and competitive highly technical field. Anyone using the Internet has directly benefited from his inventions. He was the principle architect on a very complex and highly respected hard core technical product. Yes, he really is THAT SMART. If you got to know him off the forum you'd see a likable guy as hard as that may be for some to believe. Jerry is on Snows B list but Jerry doesn't care one bit. He won't take Snows bait period and shares my opinion regarding Snow's intellect. Jerry's military training and local knowledge count a lot in my book. I don't dismiss what he says even if my initial opinion is very contrary. It would be such a kick if Jerry actually found some Cooper stuff on one of his treks and I don't rule out the possibility. His handling of Snow is classic judo. Jo is obsessed with her Duane solution, but she isn't evil, just irritating to some. I admire her pluck. She gets beaten down and pops back up every time. She seems to have a less dogmatic outlook lately. I actually enjoy dialog with her. Sluggo is also a very high IQ guy and has a truly great sense of humor. He also has an open mind and a good knowledge of hard science. If the FBI had consulted Sluggo during the chute collection and was willing to bend a few NRC rules, Cooper would have been hot and very traceable, no matter where he jumped. I don't agree with the "clingy" diagnosis. His attractive website is an underutilized resource which has the potential of being a non wacked out alternative to this forum as a beacon for people who might help solve the DBC mystery. Orange is great. We all have a crush on her and for good reason. Who wouldn't have one on a brainy girl jumper who is 727 covert ops savvy? Her findings on smoke jumper CIA links still intrigue me and leave tantalizing clues. She puts her powerful brain to good use far outside her area of professional expertise. Orange thinks with a razor and analyzes with a scalpel. Bet her baby is a brainiac! Tom is really smart and creative. Look at his patents and you will see what I mean. He doesn't get rattled and steers his own course. He is patient, so unlike the rest of us who want everything at 3 AM yesterday. He admits mistakes and is one of those rare scientists (and yes, i think it is appropriate to call him one) who sees as much value in a negative experimental result as a positive one. I'm am glad he is here and communicates what he can about what he is doing. There is a HUGE value in attracting new people to the case and his "fishing with money" was pure PR genius towards accomplishing that goal. Georger is very smart too. Do I overuse the smart tag? Not one bit. The average IQ here is very high. He and I mix it up sometimes, but it is usually from a misunderstanding rather than from dislike. Georger is a man of moods, but when he is in a positive one he brings a lot to the table. Georger actually got the FBI to give critical DBC evidence to an outsider for analysis while we were sitting around mumbling, griping and Googling. WOW!!! Snow and I couldn't get the time of day from the FBI let alone a Cooper 20 or DNA sample. My boy works in a lab that could sequence DNA so I'd love to have access. How about getting me a sample Georger? I don't have a B list, really. I like all of the people on this forum. Let's not forget the old school jumpers who log on from time to time to check on our sanity and correct our misconceptions. Guru, Nitro, Hooper, Airtwardo and the many others, thank you. Oh, and Safe, a fine mind and sorely missed. Come back! 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Jo, Relax. Stop worrying about perjury. Unless you lied under oath (like when testifying in court or signing a false affidavit) then you have not committed perjury. Hope you sleep better now. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

A couple of acro pilots I know say that the catastrophic impact damage leaves no doubt in their minds that Fossett was doing acro. They say you couldn't get those speeds in level flight in a Citabria which is a pretty slow plane. They told me it is easy to misjudge things when you are doing acro near rising or wildly uneven terrain. I know the Tena Bar money find says we are in the right general area, but think outside of the box. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I think Cooper would have gladly traded any armament he might have had for a waterproof down parka and some hiking boots on that cold rainy night. I don't think Cooper was carrying a gun Georger, but you cannot rule it out. A concealed gun might have been a plan B that he didnt have to execute. It really doesnt matter much since we have no evidence that one was used. What are the chances that he bailed out waaaaay later than the pressure bump time? Can we rule that out? I keep thinking about Steve Fossett. Tons of resources and hundred of "experts" were involved and they were all looking in the wrong place. It became a HUGE mystery but only because they were making incorrect assumptions about his flight. His wreckage would have been found pretty quickly had they been looking in the right areas. They never once included the actual crash site in their searches. They just kept searching the predicted area more and more intensely. Might we be making the FOSSETT error? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

That's a really good point. I hadn't even examined my own mental picture of the post jump Cooper, but it was very heavily influenced by the FBI drawing. We also must think about whether he bribed someone to give him a ride, maybe a few days hiding and keep their mouth shut. If you took money you might not be in any hurry to talk to the FBI about it. If he landed amidst a pot grower community they'd have probably helped him out and shut up about it. Pot growers like hiring certain kinds of fugitives to work their crops because they know a fugitive isnt going to rat them out. It's all speculation though. We have good arguments on both sides of the survived/didnt survive debate. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

I guess the kid that gave McCoy a ride didnt come forward during the time the crime remained unsolved. Maybe the kid never made any connection between the guy he picked up and the hijack. I wonder if we can overlay that McCoy scene on Cooper's jump? Could someone have picked him up that night and remained unaware that they had given a ride to DB Cooper? 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

Interesting about Coopers choice not to bring a gun. Once on the ground he couldn't coerce anyone with a "bomb" as it was long gone. A gun would have been useful on the ground, but he didnt bring one (we think, he could have kept one concealed). Bruce, what 's your psych take on the lack of a gun? Most hijackers carried guns. Once on the ground, without a gun, Cooper had to reort to social means to get assistance. That isnt easy. Who is going to pick up a wet muddy stranger on a rural road on a dark rainy night? maybe someone would thinking he had been in an accident. One thing that argues for his death is that we have nobody coming forward to say they assisted Cooper that night. How likely was it that he could have made a rural parachute jump at night in the rain and got back to civilization without assistance? I think it highlky unlikely that he succeeded in any prearranged meeting with an accomplice that night. 377 2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.