BIGUN

Well done, TK. I wish you the best of luck. Keith Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Military needs are within the constitutional scope of Presidential authority. I'm not sure that civilian activities are in the same category. OK. I'm with you. Sorry for misunderstanding. So, you're correct - but I'm also worn out with everyone thinking that there's only combat arms MOS' in the military. More directly to your statement - I agree. It would take a "program of universal national service with several levels of volunteerism built into it would enhance our military power, decrease popular opposition to mandatory service and the justifiable use of military force, and serve such valuable purposes as public health, public works, and the augmentation of teachers and social workers in disadvantaged regions of the country." https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jerome-slater/bring-back-the-draft-a-ca_b_429440.html And, that is why I was telling TriGirl someone will be along shortly to support my "ain't ever going to happen" statement. God forbid rich Ivy Leaguers or the sons & daughters of our politicians should serve something other than their own agendas. It's a novel and good concept. I just don't think Congress could wrap its head around it AND SCOTUS might slam it for the reason you share. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

But what about men with bone spurs? If one of our own can re-enlist as a double amputee; I'm fairly confident we can find someone with bone spurs - something to do. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Professor, you know damn well the SCOTUS upheld the draft on more than one occasion as not in violation of the 13rh amendment. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Actually, they did it by indoctrinating their society. Every Israeli (male and female) is required to serve (IIRC, except for those physically unable). Every adult is in the Reserve. It's ingrained into their collective psyche as a society how to behave as a cohesive community. In this situation (yes, I know Israel has a lot of other problems -- this is on topic), Israel is what many people on here and in the media have asked for: a collective buy-in to the good of the community. You are correct. Personally, I'm not opposed to every American serving some kind of two-three years. It can be the military, Peace Corps, or any of the others. It can be after college. But, that notion is just preposterous. I'm confident someone will be along shortly to explain it to me. That, is the proverbial million dollar question. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

This thread made me chuckle a bit. We played this game about 14 years ago. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=984225#984225 Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Thank you, TK. I agree this has been a good thread. I am glad that everyone is postulating ideas - and even though we may not agree with all of them - there's enough of a collaborative effort for everyone to use this as a template for their representatives. Thank you, all. Blue Skies. K. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Those would be details to work out as a system is more completely designed. I'm just brain storming at this phase. I completely understand and am taking everything in for digestion. Hopefully, by tomorrow I'll be able to formulate a letter to my representatives. A couple o f separate thoughts sent to me were see-through backpacks and school lockers. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

I can agree with that. It may be three tiers though, 1) training & Storage, 2) Training and transportation, and 3) training & Carry (did you mean concealed or constitutional?) Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

FFL's come and go. I can see the process including an FFL as a geographic convenience, but in the end - the ATF being the main database anchor. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

I was thinking the 14 days could be done over a year-long period. My S/O took the concealed carry course. People with our type of background find that a bit silly. She had one day of classroom on laws and one day of the whole class shooting 50 rounds at a 25 yard silhouette. Long as they hit the paper most of the time - good!?!?!?! Needless to say; I then taught her what she should really know. I would be receptive to somewhere in-between. But, my own observation of the two day course is not flattering. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

@Phreezone - In my mind, Registration means registering everything. Non-registration = Felony. The 8 days of training would include registration requirement (transfer. storage) If you've been trained on how to fill out a dealer's log then turn it over to the ATF and people are given enough time to go home and from course to ATF registration = X days, (X could be 90 days) then they would have enough time to comply. The ATF does this at gun shows. Many simply don't realize it because it's not in the media. And most illegal gun purchases are felonies. One of the many reasons I surrendered my FFL back in the 90's and sent all my yellow sheets to the archives was because it was becoming more constraining to be a part-time gun dealer. If one is a licensed FFL and they operate out of their home... they were waiving their right to a warrant. It wasn't just that, but it was everything combined that found me spending more time on paperwork than the profits I was making from a part-time/sometime endeavor. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Morning, Dan. There was no intention of MOUT as the same caliber of training as that of infantry. "MOUT-type, MOUT environment" is what I had expressed in previous and proposal writings. What we can do is teach Joe/Jane Citizen that drywall is not a friggin bullet block, how to shoot, move & (not) communicate in the dark, use of your home to your advantage, exit & entry for civilians, category of weapon best for your environment... It would be an abbreviated "educational" course. You need to remember that you had infantry skills when you showed up to MOUT and it was a week - this is without any infantry skills for the average person with zero to minimal previous experience. We could offer waiver for those in combat arms/MP/ etc. type MOS' (thoughts?), but not for "any time in the past twenty years for any branch." I understand your thought process. But we're not licensing the person on a particular weapon; we're licensing the person - period. The more familiar people are with the varying categories (you'll notice I didn't put individual types of weapons); the more educated they will be. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

I think the only thing I might modify in your suggestion, TK is to change LEO to specifically be the role of ATF (and they are under Homeland now - to further supplement your thoughts on database). From their site Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

OK What are they? You keep implying that you have solutions to offer and then don't. OK What are they? You keep implying that you have solutions to offer and then don't. I have been encouraging m/any idea to incorporate in the proposal and have asked you to provide them - more than once. Please share what your solutions opposite an armed presence would be. Please. I told you I'm up for any suggestions. I put what I had in post 1 and you don't share any new thoughts. What are these obvious solutions you keep referring to. List them out. Put fingers to keyboard and type a list. That's all I'm asking to stay -on topic- in this thread. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

I think it may be Apples and oranges, Joe. Not every new gun sold (cause those "fingerprints" are already at the factory - except in digital format). I "believe" the suggestion was: If *after* the sale AND there's a change to the weapon that has an effect on that digital fingerprint - send the information in. Am I reading that right? Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Not a bad point. I didn't even have to do that as a dealer. Thank you. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

And, yet you had to perform armed guard duty for physical assets while in the military. The civilian world should not much resemble the military world. Feel free to present an alternate suggestion other than "armed" for inclusion in the proposal. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

But, that's not to say that what is - on topic - would be a constructive alternative suggestion for consideration. Simply saying, No, that won't work. (that we need to find a more effective and less superficial solution than "armed guards.") yet not presenting a suggestion will only wind up in another SC circular discussion and drift off topic. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

And, yet you had to perform armed guard duty for physical assets while in the military. But, sound as though you're opposed to protecting human assets the same way. I believe kids have aright to a safe learning environment and am relying on my frame of reference in my state where we have armed police at each school. I understand that we don't agree on this point and its doubtful either of us will change the other's mind. You may or have - NOT agree on the poll. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

THIS ->having a carry permit satisfies the 'background check' for purchase and a second one isn't required. I understand. I'm more a proponent of; Last three years, mental institution thing. In my State - even vets with PTSD who are in counseling currently don;t quaify - therefore, vets aren't getting the counseling which is a big shame, but goes to show the depths of our gun culture. I think we would have to defer this to a legal AND mental health professional. But again, its a framework for submission. I agree. Lockers: Although there is an expectation of privacy, it is low, and courts have generally upheld locker searches. http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/research/search-and-seizure-due-process-and-public-schools Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Noted. I get it. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

I agree. I was addressing that and typing an edit concurrent to your posting and am looking for suggestions in that area. Personally (as a former FFL Dealer) have no problem with it - its what I had to do anyway. I had proposed it in this manner as an incremental step wherein people get used to logging and recording and perhpas down the road - registering doesn't seem such a big step. I was asked the same question in a PM. My response was that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with mandating specific storage requirements for every household as much as educating people of the various types of storage with family-type recommendations. In the end, if you're responsible for the cradle to grave ownership - you're also responsible for ensuring positive control. We have different opinions about this subject, so I would like to remain on topic regarding the proposal. Thanks for the input. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

Absolutely. And, as you have done by staying on topic to enhance the proposal. Thanks. Your points are appreciated and the above is not to say it's the final proposal. Just the framework based on the constructive information received. With input received here and in PMs' we can further enhance the proposal which I intend to send to my representatives (and hopefully others will too). EDIT: I encourage those who wish to add - to make a suggestion as to where they might put their suggestion. For example, I would put yours in a line item under background checks. For example - and to your point.. I'm having some difficulty with that exact issue. In some states, the background check upholds HIPPA by asking whether one has been involuntarily committed to a mental health institution; whereas in other states, they ask if you've been in any type of mental health counseling in the past three years. If "Yes," then they send a simple form to that mental health professional asking if they would consider that person safe enough to be considered for a CCP. If they get a "No" it's a rejection without further information. If they get a "Yes" then the CCP is granted. My concern with that is - the mental helath professsioanls who would be afraid of making a judgement call for fear of it coming back to haunt them. I think this would need to flushed out with some suggestions in the Background Check section. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

1. License the person (training, use, care, transfer, storage, transport). 2. Background Check (Criminal & Mental – defined as one who has a condition that makes them dangerous) 3. Waiting Period – 25 weekdays (if waiting period ends on a Friday – Monday pickup). 4. Training a. 8 days - training, use, care, transfer, storage, transport. b. 6 Days - CQB in a MOUT environment (automatic (2), revolver (1) shotgun (1), rifle @ the range (2). (*) = days. 5. Gun Show Loophole a. All new weapons recorded/logged from cradle to grave (manufacturer to each new owner). b. Existing weapons require i. Individual sales to have a bill of sale. ii. All weapons to be logged/recorded & kept with the owner – failure to produce equals minimum of three years. 6. Schools a. Each school to have a minimum of one armed uniform police officer & one armed uniform security guard (onsite during school hours). i. Each to carry an assault rifle, automatic pistol, taser, handcuffs, radio/cell). ii. Both to train in CQB at their specific day w/ the local police department twice a year when class is not in session). b. Teachers may carry if they choose and adhere to items 1-4 i. Teachers who carry receive $5,000-year special duty pay and must attend the twice a year training (6.a.ii) c. Random & sporadic locker inspections. i. Parents & students must sign an acknowledgement to allow. ii. All students must carry their learning materials in the open (no book bags). NOTES: 1. Items 1- 5: Cost of gun ownership. 2. Item 6: Both Left & Right have to cut their respective budgets equally at 50% of cost to protect schools. (i.e., Right – military budget. Left – social programs). Special Notes: 1. Thanks to those that sent me information in a PM (both sides). 2. Everyone has to be receptive to giving up something. Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.