Praetorian

So what extra risk is there? if your 2 out side by side (which current advice is to keep) starts buffeting or acting up, or seperates a little giving you a chance to cut the main do you spend the second to release the RSL (presuming you havn't had the chance yet) or do you jump at the chance you have to get the main away clear/rush to cutaway before they entangle? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

This is true, Early motorcycle helmet certification was based on how well the helmet stood up to impact, as I understand it, this has been modified to place more emphasis on how the skull inside the helmet holds up to impact, and to a lesser extent how the brain inside the helmet holds up. I can't find the page now but if I recall the "best helmet" as far as how the skull/brain hold up is pretty low on the how the helmet holds up list. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

RSL? I've been told, by more then one instructor that the momentary hesitation caused by a connected RSL *could* increase the chance that cutting away the main leads to an entanglement, so Disconnect the RSL then chop, .. quick question though, if your new side by side starts to act up looking like its gonna entangle, anything other then fly level, do you spend the second or 5 to pull the RSL release or do you just cut? I've been told to disconnect the RSL but no one really put any emphasis on the importance of that, is it one of those well why take that extra 1:10,000 chance or is it more like an extra 1:30 chance? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

It it was my own and I had pulled high I'd mess with it as long as I could, the reserve is your last chance, as long as the mal isnt kicking my ass (spin) I'd fight it, as I got closer to my hard deck I'd start checking alt more often, and would probably cut away a bit above my harddeck if I couldn't clear it (to avoid the "I've almost got it I'll just give it a little more" thought at the harddeck I've never had to chop but I've talked to one or two people whos advice was basic Harddeck is not a time for evaluation it is the atlitude to have acted before you reach.. I'd like to think this would be the same with rental gear Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Ok, what if I rent a main/container for the day (not per jump) and have a cutaway on jump 2 of the day, I still have all the parts I bring it back explain the mal as one of those shit happens things me or packer packed either way.. do I get a new rental rig for the rest of the day? or am I just SOL? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

All this imput is great, but when you make comments add justification please, also saying things like "economical or fast climbing" are useless if they don't have some physical reasoning behind them (I really like the comments about wing shape between the caravan and otter) Tricycle gear (I'm guessing for insurance reasons and /pilot visability?) and while I like the Idea of viedo gear/gps screen in the back and then neon belts deisgned to fit through gear, these have very little to do with the design of the plane. (oh thanks by the way all this has been great so far) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

The first dropzone I was learning at I was helping pack my own main following my first jump, small DZ with a line for the cessna, just made sense to them to have me do the work with them standing over my shoulder. never got a "packing course" nor did they raise or lower the price of the studnet jump if I was involved in the packing, on the 6-9th jumps I just did it with someone watching. to be honest I never even thought about "I packed this" when I jumped Now at SDC I havn't packed a single main, its much more high paced the student gear is in serious demand and the packers are faster then the students, the program REQUIRES a packing course and that you jump your own packjob (also an A requirement in the US) Personally I plan on doing all my own packing, even if I have to pay a packer just to watch me a few times to make sure I've got it right. (always a good idea as you can get useful tips from packers) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Ok so what features would you incoproate into the design of a purpose built drop ship (jump plane what ever you want to call your ride to altitude) I was BSing with a MechEng gradstudent tonight and he told me about an upcoming assignment; He has to propose a re-design or new design of a current "craft" boat plane car etc. idealised for a specific purpose. he was going to do a water bomber plane for forest fires. I mentioned skydiving and he like most wuffos said we "dont you just open the door and jump" heres the kicker after I talked with him he mentioned that the highest 10 graded projects get sent to a cad(computer aided design) team and in the past have (once in a blue moon)been bought as "concepts" by various manufactures (rumor is the baha (the pickup/car by subaru) is a child of one such design. Not that I expect this to go anywhere but I told him I would check so: What features would you want in a purpose built jump plane and why, talil gate? canard layout? highwing vs low wing tail shape.. we discussed it and I mentioned the dif between cessna dropzones and casa/otter planes and he suggested something in between (skyvan size or so) I threw out some radical thoughts (canard layout for one) side doors and tail gate, bars on the trailing edge of wing to hold on. anything you want/like on an existing plane but the important thing is WHY for the sport for safety for economy use your minds please I told him I'd get him enough that this would be a better project then the water bomber Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

“A few places, like SDC, start students out on smaller canopies; a good wing loading for those students would be the smallest canopy they were trained on.” billvon I love reading quotes like this 1 it makes me feel good about my choice of training program/dropzone I considered taking AFF at a smaller dropzone cuz it was less expensive then AFP at SDC, and 2 this is exactly how I choose my first main “It's all in your training. An AFF student that quickly progresses to a 1:1 Sabre gets a _lot_ of training on how to fly it, and he never learns the bad habits that a Manta student learns. Once he graduates he has a good background of experience to keep jumping that Sabre 170, and then progress to say a Sabre2 170 once he's maxed out that Sabre 1. A student that has jumped only Mantas does not have that training (the training is very different for a Manta and a 1:1 ZP canopy) and has picked up a lot of bad habits from jumping the larger canopy.” billvon I've gotta comment on this one, not to knock where I started but when I frist jumped it was under a manta 288, 9 jumps into staticline training I had to stop (money/time) then I came (almost 2 years later) to SDC, my first jump there was under a Sabre2 210 and it was the smoothist landing I'd had, better then all 9 landings under the manta .. was it the main? was it the coaching? (I think both) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

I like that people are Talking about their own downsizeing even if it was a little fast (or really fast) but your only giving wing size .. what about loading? I'm having fun with my own stupidity, one instructor of mine (I'm now convinced was pulling my leg) commented on how he thought I'd be flying a Sam or Stiletto 150 right off student status.. big boost to my ego, considering the only landings he had seen were under a sabre2 190. So for a few months (ending in january) I was under the dillusion I'd get a Sam 150 for my 1st main following my A ... then I pulled my head outta my ass after reading posts on here (at 150 I'd be loaded about 1.2:1) as I currently jump a 190 Sabre2 as a student but probably get to finnish my last 6 or 7 jumps on a 170 I'm planning on a 170 lotusMAX (already ordered) so my progression would be: oh I weigh just at 160 dressed but without gear 288sf Manta first 9 jumps Sabre2 210 3 jumps Sabre2 190 3 jumps probably 4 or 5 more Sabre2 170 10 jumps or so LotusMax 170 A lisence through the next few hundred jumps or more I know I didn't "max out" not by a long shot ..even the Manta 288 I didn't max the 210 or 190 but I'm but buying my gear I decided on the 170 Lotus which will be about 1:1 and my instructors and some friends agreed (more then one implied I would be looking to downsize by the end of the summer I dont think so. but now that I've put mine up to comment on I'm curious in this day and age would any of you really jump a manta 288 until you had MAXed it before going down in size? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Yup I spent most of the off season looking for a used 170, never found any used lotus .. not one, but its the one I wanted so I bought it new It'll be done in late MAY I'm so excited .. but waiting sucks..

might consider giving the Lotus a try while your at it (mine is ordered but It'll be 8 weeks before its ready.. talk about mixed emotions Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Cypres is an AAD (automatic activation device) cypres is a specific product, it is currently the most trusted, there is a new one out called the Vigil and there are a few older ones. In simple terms an AAD is an altimeter and a small cutter designed to cut the closing loop(might be wrong term) of your reserve, which will have the same effect as pulling the pin. the altimeter detects a fall rate and an altitude above ground (based on where you started climbing) if you go too fast as you are too low, and everything works, it will open your reserve for you. Its a very expensive BACK UP. (and in no way physically similar to a helmet) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

I'm not gonna say your wrong because your not, there are case where a helmet can make things worse or even hurt you when you would not have been hurt with out it (hard opening causing a sore neck comes to mind) the same sort of arguements have been made time and time again about seatbelts ... but in Most cases most of the time helmets will lessen injury and in the odd cases like where the helmet caused a broken neck that wouldn't have been there otherwise the neck wouldn't have broken because the skull exploding would have absorbed the impact protecting the neck nicely Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

can spring pilots shoots be "killed" somehow I dont think a kill line is gonna beat the strength of the spring.. maybe useing a big grommet and letting the D-bag slide down the bridle? ADDED sorry I should stick to a question not a question and then speculation Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Not that I'm totally on one side or another but as people have pointed out "we treat the dropzone like famliy until money is involved" and that is true as they do to us. if I can't afford the jumpticket for jump 3 that day they aren't gonna say "nah your my pal/family hop on" The dropzone isn't just gonna let me borrow their gear the way I might loan my rig to a friend, part of requireing money makes it very different from borrowing from a friend. If I loaned my rig to a friend and he got it cut up or lost I'd be far more inclined to expect him to cover those costs then if I had charged him 20-50 bucks. like wise I'd be more inclined to feel bad and pay for the repack on my friends gear that he loaned me for free then one I paid $50 bucks to use (that said contract or no I'd look for the gear) I'm also of the opinion that if the contract says I have to pay for an entire new set of gear if I loose the cutaway handle, if I agreed to that contract then I'm on the line for a whole set of new gear. My opinion: Charge less money on rental and have it understood that if you cutaway you have to pay for the repack, or charge more and cover the occosional repack. If your in it for the money I have less sympathy for you. If you were just covering costs to make gear available I'd bleed to cover any damages/loss. If your making money hand over fist charging a fortune I'd laugh if you failed to put it in the contract ... obviously the truth is in the middle somewhere so my sympathy is somewhere in the middle. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Outta curiousity, found in what condition baglocked? damaged? tangled? could the malfunction be figured out? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

You know I did just that I asked a few Doctors I know.. and the universal answer, helmet good! as a good example look at a baseball helmet for batter, I've seen people hit by fastballs with and without, one was seriously hurt, one was shaken up and had a head ache .. and the faster pitch was against the helmet. The average skydiving helmet has better padding then a baseball helmet. the blunt force trama the brain gets against the skull is gonna be close to the same but your better off it the skull isnt broken and intruding into the brain. oh and basic physics state that if the duration of the impact is increased (say by the helmet deforming padding compressing) the peak force will be reduced. No helmet is gonna save a no pull skydiver thats not what they are for, but for those hard landings mid air impacts they will help. ask yourself this, can you learn from a dented/destroyed helmet .. can you learn from a destroyed skull? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

What I'm getting at is an AAD and a helmet only do their job when something goes wrong, many skydivers are down on AADs but not helmets. I think thats partially because helmets didn't cause any problems(or at least none as major) as AADs when they first arrived. Personaly I see them as the same type of thing, something I shouldn't need, that I work hard not to need, but will be damn glad is there reguardlss of if its my mistake or an "act of god" that makes the helmet/cypress prove its value. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

To quote Chris Rock, "What the F#@K did he just say?" I'm saying that when AADs first arrived on the scene they had problems (serious problems) misfires etc, the drawbacks were so great that them might not have been an overall bennifit, Ron has pointed out to me that many skydivers hated them so much they worked hard so they were allowed to jump without them. I'm of the opinion that those experiences with early AADs have lingering effects on the current preception of AADs by those who were jumping with/around the early ones .. thats what the F#@K I'm saying ... oh and its just my preception and I could be wrong Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

people place way too much importance on "in god we trust" and way too little on "E Pluribus Unium" my latin is pretty shitty(read non existant) but the concept is so much more what America is about then anything to do with god(s) oh and our money is on the "world standard" not the "Gold standard" hasn't been gold for a long long time, notes called silver certificates once could have been changed for a specific amount of sliver (or gold for the larger bills) but those bills aren't currency anymore. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

I think that is a very fair question, I'd bet the oldtimers don't have any stories about helmets being bad back in the day (which is, I think partially why a lot of older skydivers are so down on the technology though I'm probably wrong) If I may make a parallel I've noticed that motorcycle riders who choose not to wear helmets usually dont give any shit to those that choose wear them .. so why in skydiving are so many divers so quick to jump on others about useing a cypress, (not about acutally owning one but what it "implies" about them. Personaly I wear a helmet (though once I'm allowed I'll probably make at least one or two jumps with out one) Personally I use a cypress, I don't count on it I don't trust it, but the tech is proven enough that I feel it reduces far more risk then it adds .. much like a helmet. and just like a helmet or airbag I really dont want to actually have it do its intended job so I try to live like it wont Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Obviously it was a FIRST near death experience Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

Thanks, when I checked I couldn't find any provisions for death in my consolidation paperwork but it says I keep all rights provisions and protections of the origonal federal loan I'll double check but that should include death. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment.

actually the car loan belongs to my parents (and just to piss them off I keep paying them the same monthly payment I would have paid the bank)